1-6x scope - zero at 100yd or 50yd?

[paul73]

Hi,

I keep scratching my head of what would be the best way to proceed. The scope is the vortex viper pst2 MOA - with the VMR-2 reticles.
An amazing glass, i love it, but, it has no reticles going up, only down.

I tried doing it both ways yesterday, first got it zeroed to 50yds, zeroed well, then we moved to 100yds range and i could not figure out what adjustment is needed there, as i think it was actually shooting way higher than i was expecting. I could not figure it out, damn, and just zeroed it to 100yds, and now i think if it was a wrong idea, as it will make it much more difficult to shoot 50/25 yds.

Gun is a tavor x95, .223 ammo. The distance from the barrel to the optical axis of the scope is about of 3 3/4". It is probably an 8th grade basic geometry problem i am failing with here - but, pls advice.
Like, what do the folks who run 3gun typically do - i`ve heard it is more common to zero such 1-6x optics for 50yds, is it true? I just feel it is more practical that way, as for such a tactical rifle it is a more realistic working distance, than a 100yds+.

Essentially i need to make a decision if it will be more practical to zero it at 50yd, but then i need to sort it out what reticles to use for 100yd and 200yd shots, or just say hell with all those puzzles and zero it by the book at 100yds, and then do some error and trial sessions to learn how to shoot it at 50yd and 25yd.

I hope it makes sense what i am trying to ask about here. The reticles are shown on page 5 of attached pdf.

 

[scheming]

You can zero with either and use a ballistics calculator to figure out drops and come ups at other distances. I prefer 100 yards, as I shoot that distance the most. Since your reticle has no upper hashes, prob be easier to zero at 50 and come up for longer distances.

Example: Ballistic Calculators - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

 

[TrashcanDan]

Set to 100, go from there

 

[Grendizer138]

No hold-unders with 100 yd zero. The last thing I want to have to think about if I’m shooting is extra math.

 

[Deleted member 12999]

Zero at either. Then you need to determine your holdover for various distances beyond the second point it crosses your line of sight. 50 or 100 will serve you fine out to 200/250 at which point the holdover will be a bit different between the 2

 

[Dennis in MA]

Damn. It's been a long time. Isn't your average .223 set for 25/100 zero. If you zero at 25 you'll be on at 100??? It's been a while since I zero'd one in.

Nope. 25/300. LOL. I was close. ROFL!!!! I'd sight it in at either 50 or 100 in that case.

 

[paul73]

Damn. It's been a long time. Isn't your average .223 set for 25/100 zero. If you zero at 25 you'll be on at 100??? It's been a while since I zero'd one in.
Nope. 25/300. LOL. I was close. ROFL!!!! I'd sight it in at either 50 or 100 in that case.

most targets i see I THINK are set for an ar15, the x95 has a different rail height, obviously, plus, the scope itself i did set a bit higher - on a 1.65" mount.
from all the little i remembered about zeroing rifles - i got that target first, in the attached, so, it did NOT really work, at all, as it was expected, at all. shots at 100yds all went above the stand.

with what was said above - i totally agree about not wishing to think of any extra math, so, the whole point here was to figure out if there is any simple way to use existing VMR2 reticles to accommodate the situation.
if there is no consensus on this, i will keep the zero at 100yds, most likely, as i am not quite sure anymore, of anything.

Again, i was mostly curious if there are any best practices for this dilemma, other than the obvious, following the book and setting all to 100yds, as prescribed. Next time i will try to get to 100yds first, then move to 50 and 25 to see if it will improve anything.

 

[SgtHal75]

Hi,

I keep scratching my head of what would be the best way to proceed. The scope is the vortex viper pst2 MOA - with the VMR-2 reticles.
An amazing glass, i love it, but, it has no reticles going up, only down.

I tried doing it both ways yesterday, first got it zeroed to 50yds, zeroed well, then we moved to 100yds range and i could not figure out what adjustment is needed there, as i think it was actually shooting way higher than i was expecting. I could not figure it out, damn, and just zeroed it to 100yds, and now i think if it was a wrong idea, as it will make it much more difficult to shoot 50/25 yds.

Gun is a tavor x95, .223 ammo. The distance from the barrel to the optical axis of the scope is about of 3 3/4". It is probably an 8th grade basic geometry problem i am failing with here - but, pls advice.
Like, what do the folks who run 3gun typically do - i`ve heard it is more common to zero such 1-6x optics for 50yds, is it true? I just feel it is more practical that way, as for such a tactical rifle it is a more realistic working distance, than a 100yds+.

Essentially i need to make a decision if it will be more practical to zero it at 50yd, but then i need to sort it out what reticles to use for 100yd and 200yd shots, or just say hell with all those puzzles and zero it by the book at 100yds, and then do some error and trial sessions to learn how to shoot it at 50yd and 25yd.

I hope it makes sense what i am trying to ask about here. The reticles are shown on page 5 of attached pdf.

Not trying to be a dick but it seems like to much scope for the rifle. I don’t own a tavor, but are you going to be using this rifle for long engagements? A very basic hack for 223/556 zeroing is to zero at 50 yds and the round will hit at the same spot at 200 yds. There is no absolutel precision to this but I use it on all my rifles and it works fine. Anything less than 100 yds with that scope seems a little much. I’m actually looking at getting that scope for one of my precision bolt guns. I think u might be better off with a red dot for the tavor, but u do u and have some fun.

 

[paul73]

Not trying to be a dick but it seems like to much scope for the rifle. I don’t own a tavor, but are you going to be using this rifle for long engagements? A very basic hack for 223/556 zeroing is to zero at 50 yds and the round will hit at the same spot at 200 yds. There is no absolutel precision to this but I use it on all my rifles and it works fine. Anything less than 100 yds with that scope seems a little much. I’m actually looking at getting that scope for one of my precision bolt guns. I think u might be better off with a red dot for the tavor, but u do u and have some fun.

it seems wrong. i don`t want to argue about that point, at all - use anything you like. it was not the point of this thread.
all i can say - this 1-6x glass is a very good match for this rifle and my intents, and rifle itself is very accurate. i am not disappointed at all.

for longer range bigger caliber precision bolt a 1-6x scope is short, 3-15x or 5-25x are available, glass quality there is also same, almost as good as a razor.

 

[golden chicken]

Because the bullet travels in an arc and your line of sight through the...sight...is straight, if you zero the rifle at short range, the bullet is still traveling upwards along its arc. Slightly further downrange and the bullet impacts will be higher until you get far enough out that the now falling bullet re-intersects with your line of sight.

If you zero a rifle at a close range with a high scope, you're really going to be lobbing bullets.

 

[SgtHal75]

it seems wrong. i don`t want to argue about that point, at all - use anything you like. it was not the point of this thread.
all i can say - this 1-6x glass is a very good match for this rifle and my intents, and rifle itself is very accurate. i am not disappointed at all.

for longer range bigger caliber precision bolt a 1-6x scope is short, 3-15x or 5-25x are available, glass quality there is also same, almost as good as a razor.

Hmmm. I thought u were referring to the viper pst gen2 5x25x50 or the 3x15x44. I did not realize their was a pst model in 1x6. So, I would still zero at the 50 on 1x magnification. I have the primary arms 1x6 on a rifle and this works great.

 

[paul73]

Because the bullet travels in an arc and your line of sight through the...sight...is straight, if you zero the rifle at short range, the bullet is still traveling upwards along its arc.

well, for .223 at 25-50-100 yds there is no arc. it drops after 200yds, so what you DO have are 2 straight lines - one is the optical axis of the scope, that sits X inches above the barrel, and the other straight line - axis of the barrel.

zero at 100yds - means lines intersect - and all your groups at 50yds and 25yds will be low. so you would need to shoot a bit higher, AND the anticipated offset at 25yds was supposed to be 12 MOA, from what i understand from the target, but, it was NOT that, at all.
anyway, heck with it, i was hoping it was something trivial, but, looks like it is not. i will just need to figure out how many MOAs it actually takes with this tavor to get correct offsets, and how it will translate into the existing reticles that are set 4 MOAs apart.

 

[Compooky]

Depends what you’re doing. 50 if you’re shooting at shorter distances. The magnification is pretty much just for target ID and all the marks on the reticle are somewhat useless. Or 100 if you plan to shoot longer distances and get some use from the hashmarks for precision.

 

[SgtHal75]

well, for .223 at 25-50-100 yds there is no arc. it drops after 200yds, so what you DO have are 2 straight lines - one is the optical axis of the scope, that sits X inches above the barrel, and the other straight line - axis of the barrel.

zero at 100yds - means lines intersect - and all your groups at 50yds and 25yds will be low. so you would need to shoot a bit higher, AND the anticipated offset at 25yds was supposed to be 12 MOA, from what i understand from the target, but, it was NOT that, at all.
anyway, heck with it, i was hoping it was something trivial, but, looks like it is not. i will just need to figure out how many MOAs it actually takes with this tavor to get correct offsets, and how it will translate into the existing reticles that are set 4 MOAs apart.

It’s definitely not trivial. I can’t speak for your scope but just zero at the 50. Your holdover for close engagements (3-20 yds) is gonna be roughly 3 inches or so. Your offset for engagements from 50 to about 150ish will not be 12 MOA. That’s 12 inches at 100 yds, that seems way to much. But, play around with it once you get a 1 inch group at the 50. I bet the glass is good, vortex makes good shit, in Chyna

 

[paul73]

It’s definitely not trivial. I can’t speak for your scope but just zero at the 50. Your holdover for close engagements (3-20 yds) is gonna be roughly 3 inches or so. Your offset for engagements from 50 to about 150ish will not be 12 MOA. That’s 12 inches at 100 yds, that seems way to much. But, play around with it once you get a 1 inch group at the 50. I bet the glass is good, vortex makes good shit, in Chyna

not Chyna - Philippines, but, glass in the pst2 models is good.
i agree, i will need to shoot some more rounds next time to sort it all out. it is ok.

12 MOA was supposed to be a 25yd offset from a zero done at 100yds. 25 yds is 1/4 the distance, 12/4 = 3 - so, it is the math - 3 inches adjustment for 25yds mark, 12 MOA reticle. it did not work.
i was trying, essentially, to do a 'reverse' process there, but, enough on that. i see now what needs to be done, will do it next time. trial and error always perseveres.

 

[PappyM3]

...
anyway, heck with it, i was hoping it was something trivial, but, looks like it is not. i will just need to figure out how many MOAs it actually takes with this tavor to get correct offsets, and how it will translate into the existing reticles that are set 4 MOAs apart.

I highly recommend the StrelokPro app. For me, red dots and simple SFP LPVOs without stadia lines are zeroed at 50 yards for 5.56. It gives me near POA/POI out to 225-250 yards, which works in almost any possible scenario in New England. For scopes with more stadia lines or BDC, I plug it into Strelok to see what the holds will be. I choose what I like best. For things like the Razor, it’s still a 50 yard zero. For the ACOG, it’s a 100 meter zero.

But that’s with an AR. With an X95, the height over bore of the optic changes things drastically.

Using a 3.75” height over bore for a scope on an X95(I think that might be approximately right) and a 3101 FPS 55gr M193, we get the following holds for a 50 and 100 yard zero. The 50 yard meets up approximately with 300 yards and you need to hold low for everything in between. The 100 yard zero stays pretty flat out to 225 yards, but then drops off faster.

Personally, it seems with an X95 and the VMR-2 MOA with M193, I would choose 100 yard for POA/POI out to 225 yards, and then bullet drop stadia lines out to 600 yards. Don’t know what bullet you’re using, but those can be calculated too.

50 yard:




100 yards:

 

[paul73]

damn, that is awesome! thx for that, i am still working on comprehending what i am seeing.

 

[PappyM3]

damn, that is awesome! thx for that, i am still working on comprehending what i am seeing.

Essentially, it seems that because of the height over bore difference, while a 50 yard zero for an AR is flatter than a 100 yard zero for normal engagement distances, for the X95 it is the opposite. Given the height over bore being so much, you’re just going to have to live with shooting up to 3” low with shots under 25 yards.

Oh and the target pictures show a target at 200 yards, with the red text at the stadia lines showing your estimated bullet drops per stadia line.

This is a target at 600 yards with a 100 yard zero:

 

[paul73]

I highly recommend the StrelokPro app. For me, red dots and simple SFP LPVOs without stadia lines are zeroed at 50 yards for 5.56. It gives me near POA/POI out to 225-250 yards, which works in almost any possible scenario in New England. For scopes with more stadia lines or BDC, I plug it into Strelok to see what the holds will be. I choose what I like best. For things like the Razor, it’s still a 50 yard zero. For the ACOG, it’s a 100 meter zero.

But that’s with an AR. With an X95, the height over bore of the optic changes things drastically.

Using a 3.75” height over bore for a scope on an X95(I think that might be approximately right) and a 3101 FPS 55gr M193, we get the following holds for a 50 and 100 yard zero. The 50 yard meets up approximately with 300 yards and you need to hold low for everything in between. The 100 yard zero stays pretty flat out to 225 yards, but then drops off faster.

Personally, it seems with an X95 and the VMR-2 MOA with M193, I would choose 100 yard for POA/POI out to 225 yards, and then bullet drop stadia lines out to 600 yards. Don’t know what bullet you’re using, but those can be calculated too.

that is awesome! could you please re-run it at the 3.66" over the bore and do reticle picture for 6x magnification? not sure if it matters - but - it was showing 10x there.
or 3.7"... damn, i cannot figure out how to measure it correctly.
sorry - 3.8" you used was correct. my measurements were wrong.

 

[1903Collector]

Not trying to be a dick but it seems like to much scope for the rifle. I don’t own a tavor, but are you going to be using this rifle for long engagements? A very basic hack for 223/556 zeroing is to zero at 50 yds and the round will hit at the same spot at 200 yds. There is no absolutel precision to this but I use it on all my rifles and it works fine. Anything less than 100 yds with that scope seems a little much. I’m actually looking at getting that scope for one of my precision bolt guns. I think u might be better off with a red dot for the tavor, but u do u and have some fun.

Your talking about the IBZ correct?

 

[PappyM3]

that is awesome! could you please re-run it at the 3.66" over the bore and do reticle picture for 6x magnification? not sure if it matters - but - it was showing 10x there.
or 3.7"... damn, i cannot figure out how to measure it correctly.

No, that was 6x. It says a 10x at 0.6 scale, and the bottom shows 6x.

But 3.66” height over bore is just going to bring in your “flat” range a tiny bit.

 

[paul73]

No, that was 6x. It says a 10x at 0.6 scale, and the bottom shows 6x.

But 3.66” height over bore is just going to bring in your “flat” range a tiny bit.

yep, i got it. thx again, it makes perfect sense. also - you original one was correct, my 3.66" was off.

 

[SgtHal75]

Your talking about the IBZ correct?

Sort of. I believe the IBZ and the RIBZ relate to the A2 type rear iron sights, I think?. I zero my shit at the 50 with a less than 1 inch group center mass. At 200 that round is hitting less than 1 MOA point of aim point of impact. So that’s only 2 inches maximum off of my point of aim without any adjustments or offsets. I’m good with that being my civilian battle sight zero. We all should be drilling the hell out of holdovers from the 3 to 20 yard line, that’s where our engagements will be when this goes hot.

 

[PappyM3]

so, to kick this horse to the death - what i see above - it essentially shows that after a 100yds zero, to shoot 50yds i need to be 4 MOAs down, approximately - and i can visually do that by looking at the first reticle under the cross. and it should work. than, 25yds will be 8MOA? can you run a picture for 25yds, pls? with 3.8" height over bore?
can it show 'vert correction clicks' and set click to 1/2 moa?

You should get the app so you can play around more with velocities and different bullets.

2.6 MOA difference at 50 yards with a 100 yard zero. A 3.8” HOB won’t be much different than 3.75”, but here you go:

 

[PappyM3]

Oh, and if you need to hit a dude in the T box at 10 yards, use the top of the thick vertical line as your aim point so you don’t hit him in the jaw instead.


But hopefully you’re at 1X then:

 

[PeterC]

I used a graph like this and decided on a 50 yard zero so that would be able to hit center of mass, within 2-4" or so, anywhere from 50 out to 300 yards with very little thinking.

Precision it ain't but it's quick and solid. ymmv

 

[weekendracer]

Damn. It's been a long time. Isn't your average .223 set for 25/100 zero. If you zero at 25 you'll be on at 100??? It's been a while since I zero'd one in.

Nope. 25/300. LOL. I was close. ROFL!!!! I'd sight it in at either 50 or 100 in that case.

I was thinking the same thing. What's the actual difference in PO Impact?

Oh, and if you need to hit a dude in the T box at 10 yards, use the top of the thick vertical line as your aim point so you don’t hit him in the jaw instead.
View attachment 415237

But hopefully you’re at 1X then:
View attachment 415238

Using this, it looks like 'minute of man' is about the same. Hitting a human target, it's all about hitting 'good enough'. Unless you are thinking you're going to stone cold drop someone with a headshot.

I'd like to think I could, but adrenaline shakes are a real thing when the gun is actually in your hand and the threat is in front of you.

Oh yeah, I'd take a 'jaw shot' under stress in a deadly force encounter. There's 'important' stuff behind the jaw.

 

[PappyM3]

I was thinking the same thing. What's the actual difference in PO Impact?

Using this, it looks like 'minute of man' is about the same. Hitting a human target, it's all about hitting 'good enough'. Unless you are thinking you're going to stone cold drop someone with a headshot.

I'd like to think I could, but adrenaline shakes are a real thing when the gun is actually in your hand and the threat is in front of you.

Oh yeah, I'd take a 'jaw shot' under stress in a deadly force encounter. There's 'important' stuff behind the jaw.

Eh, minute of man is acceptable out past 200-300 yards I think. Where you just want to take them out of the fight and aren’t worried about an immediate response from them. Anything closer and I want to be able to hit within 3” for a vital shot.

But T box vs jaw at room distances is a huge difference. Plenty of guys have continued to fight with a jaw shot. Slight deflections can mean that nothing of consequence is hit.

 

[paul73]

Using this, it looks like 'minute of man' is about the same. Hitting a human target, it's all about hitting 'good enough'. Unless you are thinking you're going to stone cold drop someone with a headshot.

i used to hunt, quite a bit. hitting a pheasant from a 100yds, standing up, for an example. any good rifle has many use cases for it, and x95 is quite good.

plus, an ability to shoot tight groups at 100yds - it is just as any hobby as anything else. takes a bit of work and dedication, as anything else.

 

[PappyM3]

I used a graph like this and decided on a 50 yard zero so that would be able to hit center of mass, within 2-4" or so, anywhere from 50 out to 300 yards with very little thinking.

Precision it ain't but it's quick and solid. ymmv

View attachment 415239

That chart is dependent on the height over bore of the sight.