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Reptile

Reptile

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How much do instructors charge for 1 on 1 training? I am not about to ask anyone right now, but I would like to have an idea. In the event of a "Tier 1" or "Tier 2" "Operator" (I know people hate that term) comes to this area - or already is here - how much would they charge?

I would have no idea what a fair price would be. There have been great local guys who charged $250 (2 days) and people have lucked out when only 2 people show up to take the class. For those who know the behind the scenes finances - how does it all break down?

1. Private use of an area in a club / range.
2. Hourly rate of the instructor.
3. Supplies like targets and stands.
4. Lunch.
5. Travel time and gas for the instructor to get to the range.
6. Insurance
7. Admin fees if they have assistants.
8. Hotel
9. Airline fees

Some classes cost students $300 for 2 days, but there could be 8 people in the class so that comes to $2,400. The host of the class takes a cut (what % I don't know) and they usually occur on valuable weekends.

What about during the week on off days?

I have heard about individuals, "fathers and sons", small families, or special teams paying for classes.

NE Shooters put together the Summit and had some very well noted instructors. It was a great value because the instructors were each giving a sample of there classes - partly to promote their own classes which may be booked in the future. It was a win / win for everybody. There are other "Summits" or "Expo's" that happen in other parts of the country, I am sure.

We all know the top "Tier 1" guys who make lots of videos and have reputations as the best of the best in the world. How much do those guys make a year? Divided by say 4 days a week of actual instruction comes to how much a day to teach a class?

Is it possible that a "Tier 1" operator / instructor could gross $300,000 per year before taxes? Say he works 4 days a week, that comes to $1,500 per day.

What about the local guys? Or regions seems to be getting some serious contenders.

Could they be making $100,000 per year gross before taxes?

If they work 4 days a week that brings them to $500 per day.

I honestly have no idea how this business works.

I am just trying to figure how much is a fair price to pay for a couple days during the week.

I do not wish to go around asking instructors because I don't know the business and need to save for such a class first.

Although taking a class in a group is a great deal of fun - I wonder if a 1:1 or 1:2 instructor / student ratio would make for a better learning experience or be as enjoyable.
 
glockerblogger said:
Not 1:1 but I attended a full day training with a top national shooter - it was 500 each for 5 of us (class limited to 5).
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Wow, just 5 students is still reasonable for that price and one day.

By "shooter" do you mean a competition shooter or an "instructor"?

It would be interesting if there was a list of "mini" groups who train with top instructors.

Speaking for me, if it was not on a Sunday - I may be interested in tagging along and might be looking at this sub-forum more.
 
Boris said:
what's a "tier 1 operator"? How much marketing and promotional fame does one need to do to achieve that level?
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Probably the same as what it takes to become an "industry professional". Spend a year running your mouth on a youtube channel, blow a few big name, real, industry professionals and get them to say your name on video for your youtube channel, put their name in the title of a video and watch the channel views add up. You will be TIER 1! before you know it.

Reptile, are you looking for training, or are you feeling out the industry looking for a second career?
 
we first need to set up a tier system, now that michelle obama has taken over the dinner plates of the nation it means that the food pyramid is now open for re-purposing.
 
edmorseiii said:
Probably the same as what it takes to become an "industry professional". Spend a year running your mouth on a youtube channel, blow a few big name, real, industry professionals and get them to say your name on video for your youtube channel, put their name in the title of a video and watch the channel views add up. You will be TIER 1! before you know it.

Reptile, are you looking for training, or are you feeling out the industry looking for a second career?
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Beard length ... you forgot to factor that in. I think it's length in inches multiplier.

I know a place where you can get bachelors or PhD from Spetsnaz university. Those diplomas are well worth the cash.
 
My take on this: if you think you need one on one operational training, you don't. You need fundamental shooting training. Go to a 10 man class, and if your shit's strapped down tight in the fundamentals, and you don't drag down the rest of the class while you're slapping away at your $300 trigger trying to put shots on paper at 10 yards, you will do ok. I look at that kind of class as the ability to run some drills under the supervision of someone who knows what they're doing, and getting the basic idea of what they want you to do, then practice those things on your own. I have a couple friends that want to take some higher level classes at SIG with the thought that they'll be DEVGRU operators at the end of the day. It doesn't work that way.
 
I don't know the economics from the instructor side, but offer a bit of insight from the courses I took with NE Shooters back in 2004 & 2005.

Jim Crews (Marksmans Enterprises) drove out from Montana (?) with a trailer full of props, etc. Couldn't have been a cheap trip for a 3 day class.

I suspect that both Randy Cain (Cumberland Tactics) and Gabe Suarez (Suarez International) flew out from TN and AZ respectively.

For one of those courses (Jim Crews) I stayed in a hotel in Nashua, that cost me ~$300 plus food (brought my Wife with me) which was another ~$300.

For each course we had to pay a separate range fee for use of the Tyngsborough club. I think it might have been $20-40.

One of my clubs (Mansfield F&G) charges instructors $10/student per course, even if the student is a club member.

Many of the top traveling instructors offer a free seat to the club which sponsors them, that is the "payback" for sponsorship.

The gross numbers that a top tier instructor/operator may make/year may sound grand but after expenses I'm certain that it isn't a fantastic income. I suspect most do it because they love what they do, more than for the money.

From the student side, I'd say that you (general "you") could learn a lot from any of the really good instructors out there. Unless you are training to go to war, I don't feel that it is necessary to train with the tier 1 "operators" in order to learn useful skills. I think it might have been Suarez who told us that there is really no such thing as an "advanced" gunfight! That it is all the basics!

For us in MA, where self-help is likely to get you charged with multiple crimes, my personal belief is that you need an advanced understanding of our laws, how they are really implemented (not merely how they read in black and white), and solid basic training. That's the niche I (biased opinion) believe that my Mass. Gun Laws By and For Non-Lawyers (How To Stay Legal and Out of Trouble) Seminar and the NRA Personal Protection in the Home and Outside the Home courses provide as a foundation! After that seek out a good solid self-defense instructor. Unlike some other parts of the country, training to take out a perp at 100 or 200 yds in MA will most certainly get you a longer jail term than the perp if you ever implement said training!!

I've met Stu (Cloverleaf) and he was a student in one of my Mass. Gun Laws By and For Non-Lawyers (How To Stay Legal and Out of Trouble) seminars. Based strictly on the feedback I've read here, I'd say that he would be a very solid choice. Lack of instructor expenses (travel, hotels, food, etc.) make it much more reasonable for those taking instruction.
 
jibbr71 said:
I have a couple friends that want to take some higher level classes at SIG with the thought that they'll be DEVGRU operators at the end of the day. It doesn't work that way.
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Ummm, I most assuredly will!


[laugh]

With proximity to Sig Academy, and the "TIER 1!" personalities that NEShooters brings around every year, there is no shortage on professional trainers and classes to take. If that level of training is intimidating, there are plenty of solid dudes right here on the boards that offer 1:1 sessions so intimate you think you are both naked in the same kayak.
 
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Len-2A Training said:
I've met Stu (Cloverleaf) and he was a student in one of my Mass. Gun Laws By and For Non-Lawyers (How To Stay Legal and Out of Trouble) seminars. Based strictly on the feedback I've read here, I'd say that he would be a very solid choice. Lack of instructor expenses (travel, hotels, food, etc.) make it much more reasonable for those taking instruction.
Click to expand...

This really is the answer, and it explains why local instructors/trainers are the most economic choice. Granted, I am biased because Stu is a friend of mine, but he would be my recommendation to anyone in MA and beyond.

- - - Updated - - -

jibbr71 said:
I'm not even mad Bro....just happy I have a friend. Got a kayak?
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A 1 seater...
 
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I'll second a personal endorsement of cloverleaf firearms group (stu). I'm interested to know how well those guys do, it looks like a hell of a fun career.
 
Boris said:
what's a "tier 1 operator"? How much marketing and promotional fame does one need to do to achieve that level?
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The usual way is to carry a gun for a living - police or military.

I know some people who have bypassed that via high level performance on the competition circuit. One high level competitor I know who has never worked the battlefield or the mean streets regularly goes to placed like Ft Bragg to do his teaching.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
The usual way is to carry a gun for a living - police or military.

I know some people who have bypassed that via high level performance on the competition circuit. One high level competitor I know who has never worked the battlefield or the mean streets regularly goes to placed like Ft Bragg to do his teaching.
Click to expand...

You could also fabricate your combat experience...

1012950_10152561878796009_3624801651533121360_n.jpg
 
so what tier are you at now???

take a look at the Sig Academy. They have good courses on a wide variety of TOPICS.

you can get the best trainer but if you can't hit the broad side of a barn then all the tacticool ops are kind of pointless.

in most classes you're not as much "trained to shoot" but "trained how to practice". You need to put the time in after and practice methodically to develop good habits. Without the follow up work it all goes out the window pretty fast.
 
Thanks Len, Snacks, and Ed. Speaking as a card carrying Tier 9 operator...

Here's my take on it (having been to several of these types of classes)... I think that 75% of the people that go to them aren't ready for them, and could be spending their $$ more efficiently. I don't know you Reptile, nor have I seen you shoot, so I'm not assuming that is the case in your situation. Another-David nailed it. Classes generally fall into two camps: 1) Teach you tactics 2) Teach you how to train.

A vast majority of them aren't fixing any of your problems in class... because it's pretty difficult to slow an entire group down to fix one person. They may work with you for a minute or two on breaks, but they need breaks too. If you can't hit A zone at 25 yards (with no time limit), hit A zone in pretty close to 1.25-1.5 seconds from the holster at 7 yards, or still anticipate recoil, you just wasted a lot of $$ imo. I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, but it's just how I see things. That's not to say you won't learn stuff at these kinds of classes, you will. You're just putting the cart before the horse. PARTICULARLY if it's a tactics based class like Vehicle CQB or something. All of your fundamentals need to be pretty solid, AND sub-conscious for the most part. You will be shooting around other people, moving, making decisions, and communicating in many of these classes. All it takes is a split second for you to get all balled up with your blaster, and lose focus on what's going on around you. I've seen it.

I've watched dudes with really bad flinches get lost in the shuffle in courses, and I felt really bad. Some eventually kept at it, and caught up, but the stress was evident, and learning objectives were missed for them. Some never caught up. That was $500 and 1-2k rounds DOWN THE TUBES in my opinion. Ron Avery said it pretty well 'Your body doesn't distinguish between a round fired in training, or a round fired in a fight'. If you hose 2k rounds down range with bad fundamentals, you just reinforced a shit-load of bad that will have to be un-done by someone else or yourself.

[grin]

Edit: On topic... My department is bringing in a guy this year. He's tier 1, but not a tool. Looking to be about $2500 for two days is what was quoted.
 
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One youtube personality became a Tier One operator in his own mind, simply by forgetting how to drive a manual transmission car in the middle of an ambush in Iraq...
 
Len-2A Training said:
I've met Stu (Cloverleaf) and he was a student in one of my Mass. Gun Laws By and For Non-Lawyers (How To Stay Legal and Out of Trouble) seminars. Based strictly on the feedback I've read here, I'd say that he would be a very solid choice. Lack of instructor expenses (travel, hotels, food, etc.) make it much more reasonable for those taking instruction.
Click to expand...

edmorseiii said:
This really is the answer, and it explains why local instructors/trainers are the most economic choice. Granted, I am biased because Stu is a friend of mine, but he would be my recommendation to anyone in MA and beyond.
Click to expand...

AllaSnackbah said:
I'll second a personal endorsement of cloverleaf firearms group (stu). I'm interested to know how well those guys do, it looks like a hell of a fun career.
Click to expand...

Another vote for Stu and Cloverleaf
 
M1911 said:
One youtube personality became a Tier One operator in his own mind, simply by forgetting how to drive a manual transmission car in the middle of an ambush in Iraq...
Click to expand...

[video=youtube_share;S53T8jBzXy4]http://youtu.be/S53T8jBzXy4[/video]

jibbr71 said:
I'll get on that bandwagon, but have you seen the dude's hair? kinda going hipster on us.
Click to expand...


Must resist posting photo from nes shooting comp lol....
 

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