1911 for CC and HD.

[soloman02]

I want to standardize my HD and CC gun so that my training time is reduced since I only have to focus on one style of gun (I have an XD9 sub and a Ruger P345 which require different training regimens since the Ruger is a decocker and the XD is a striker).

I also have the 1911 bug and am looking to get a 1911 that I can carry and use for HD. This is already a tall order from what I can discern. I'd like to keep it the gun in the "hand cannon" class, which means staying with .45.

I am looking at this from a CC perspective since I can always get a full size 1911 for HD down the road as the controls will be the same, hence why I want a 1911 since I wouldn't have to worry about how the safety works on my HD gun verses the CC when TSHTF as the controls will be the same when I ingrain the motor motions into my subconsciousness.

My Ideal CC would be a commander slide (4" barrel) on an officers frame that is lightweight (no more than 30oz empty) and is a bobtail (over all gun height is 5").

To make this already momentous ideal gun even harder to find, I don't want to spend more than $800.

This means I am probably gonna have to search high and low for a used gun which I am fine with provided it is not beat to hell. The bobtail would be nice but isn't a deal breaker.

I'd imagine the recoil would be roughly the same as my P345 as they would weigh the same.

I held a SW1911PD at KTP tonight and it felt real nice though the grip was a tad too big for CC (IMO). I also help a Kimber ultra carry that felt real nice. The grip was just right, I assume this is the officers frame. The Kimber was pricey though, especially since it had those crimson trace grips that I do not care for at all. I also held a new (expensive but not as bad as those Kimbers) Springfield ultra compact that was nice, grip felt right too, had enough room for all my fingers but not too little like my XD subcompact where my pinky hangs off.

Is there much out there from reputable manufacturers that can come close to the ideal specs I laid out? My deal breakers are: the height (5") and the weight. I might go for a 3.5" barrel, but not a 3".

I'm have a sinking feeling I'm not gonna find what I want at the price I want .

In case anyone couldn't tell, I like to pay as little as possible for what I want.

Now that I'm done writing my book, thoughts?

 

[appraiser]

there are always Glocks in .45ACP

 

[Hanwei]

Minus the bobtail option (which I believe will be super hard to find without spending more $)

For 1911's I'd suggest:

The Kimber Compact CDP II: http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/cdp/compact_cdp_II/

I have the Kimber Elite Carry.... which is a special edition of the Compact CDP and it's a great little 1911. Officers frame, almost a commander slide... and has a custom melt job like all of the CDP line... it's awesome. I love mine.

The Kimber Compact Stainless II: http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/compactprocarry/compact_stainless_II/

I'm not sure what free world prices are for these two 1911's but I'm guessing you can get them for <$1000.

Time for bed... I'll post other suggestions tomorrow if I can think of them

EDIT:

Glockaholic is correct... if your priority is to standardize on platform and the .45 caliber... Glock 30 (or 30SF) for carry, and Glock 21 (or 21SF) for HD. Done. I understand you have the 1911 bug... but still... food for thought.

There's also the XD Compact .45 for carry, and XD .45 for HD.

Both the Glock 30 and XD Compact have a spot for your pinky.

 

[M1911]

My Ideal CC would be a commander slide (4" barrel) on an officers frame that is lightweight (no more than 30oz empty) and is a bobtail (over all gun height is 5").

No need for a bobtail with an officer's frame. I can understand a bobtail on a true commander (full size frame). But skip it for an officer's frame. My normal carry is a Kimber Compact, with an officer's frame. The butt hides just fine.

To make this already momentous ideal gun even harder to find, I don't want to spend more than $800.

You may have trouble finding a compact for that price. You can find a true commander for that price.

I'd imagine the recoil would be roughly the same as my P345 as they would weigh the same.

Recoil is minimal on a true commander or full sized 1911 with a steel frame. The same is true for my steel frame Kimber Compact. Recoil is noticeably increased for my aluminum framed Kimber Compact, but I still find it to be less than my Glock 23. YMMV.

I also help a Kimber ultra carry that felt real nice. The grip was just right, I assume this is the officers frame. The Kimber was pricey though, especially since it had those crimson trace grips that I do not care for at all.

The ultra carry is an officer's size frame.

Is there much out there from reputable manufacturers that can come close to the ideal specs I laid out? My deal breakers are: the height (5") and the weight. I might go for a 3.5" barrel, but not a 3".

Kimber Compact. Wilson CQB Compact. ~4" barrel, officer's frame.
Springfield Ultra Compact ~3.5" barrel, officer's frame.

I'm not a fan of the Kimber IIs. I do like the Kimber series I (no Swartz-style safety). Realize, however, that 1911s are often more finicky out of the box, and may need some attention from a good 1911 gunsmith to get running properly. Wilson Combat makes great pistols, but they are way over your price range, even used. Springfield makes good guns, but I prefer a 4" barrel to a 3.5". If you would consider a true Commander, then definitely get the Springer over a Kimber II.

I'm have a sinking feeling I'm not gonna find what I want at the price I want .

Yup. You'll be more likely to find it if you go with a true Commander (4 1/4" barrel, full size frame). Then have a gunsmith bobtail it when you get the money together.

In case anyone couldn't tell, I like to pay as little as possible for what I want.

Sorry, but cheap and 1911s don't really go well together.

 

[soloman02]

Sorry, but cheap and 1911s don't really go well together.

I kinda figured that.

Glockaholic is correct... if your priority is to standardize on platform and the .45 caliber... Glock 30 (or 30SF) for carry, and Glock 21 (or 21SF) for HD. Done. I understand you have the 1911 bug... but still... food for thought.


There's also the XD Compact .45 for carry, and XD .45 for HD.

Both the Glock 30 and XD Compact have a spot for your pinky.

I've never really liked glocks. I think it is the grip angle. I fired one at my basic pistol class and something felt off when I fired it.

That's originally why I went with the XD9 SC for CC because it was small and it felt right (must be the grip angle) and looked like the "American glock". After having carried it for some time now, I am disliking it's thickness.

KTP had a SW1911PD with the commander slide (full size grip I think) for $725.

Are the I have heard decent things about the smiths. I saw an officer frame with commander slide on S&W's website, the SW1911 Compact ES. Anyone know if the S&W are decent 1911s?

 

[M1911]

KTP had a SW1911PD with the commander slide (full size grip I think) for $725.

Are the I have heard decent things about the smiths. I saw an officer frame with commander slide on S&W's website, the SW1911 Compact ES. Anyone know if the S&W are decent 1911s?

They are decent. I'm not a fan of the Swartz style safety, but S&W seems to have it debugged better than the Kimber Series II.

 

[soloman02]

They are decent. I'm not a fan of the Swartz style safety, but S&W seems to have it debugged better than the Kimber Series II.

I have seen it mentioned before but what is a Swartz style safety Vs the regular style? I can always replace the safety myself down the line correct? Or would I want a smith to do it for me?

 

[M1911]

I have seen it mentioned before but what is a Swartz style safety Vs the regular style?

You are confusing a firing pin safety with the thumb safety. The thumb safety on 1911s does not prevent the firing pin from moving. Some 1911s have firing pin safeties, some do not.

The series 70 style 1911 lockwork has no firing pin safety. The firing pin is kept off the primer by the firing pin retaining spring. But if you drop a series 70 from a high enough height, onto a hard enough surface, and it hits on the muzzle, the inertia of the firing pin could overcome the resistance of the firing pin retaining spring and the gun could then fire.

The Series 80 style lockwork has a firing pin safety. When you pull the trigger all the way to the rear, a lever on the top of the frame rises up, depressing a plunger on the bottom of the slide. This allows the firing pin to move. As a result, the Series 80 is drop safe whereas the Series 70 is not. The Series 80 style firing pin safety is very reliable, but it takes more work to get a good trigger break than for a Series 70. It also adds additional parts that makes detail stripping and reassembly more of a pain -- but you really don't need to do detail stripping.

The Swartz style safety is a firing pin safety that disengages when you depress the grip safety. Since it is not associated with pulling the trigger, the Swartz style safety has the advantage that it does not affect trigger pull. The downside is that it can be unreliable if it is not fitted properly. There have been reports of failures to go bang with Kimber Series II as a result. There have been fewer reports (but still some) about the S&W 1911s. Here's an article by a gunsmith that describes the issue: http://10-8performance.com/id8.html

Here's a break down of some of the common 1911s and the style of lockwork that they use:

Series 70 -- Series 70 Colt, Kimber Series I, Springfield Armory, Wilson Combat
Series 80 -- Series 80 Colt, ParaOrdnance, SIG
Swartz -- Kimber Series II, S&W

Personally, I prefer Series 70 or Series 80. I recognize that my Series 70 are not drop safe and accept that liability.

I can always replace the safety myself down the line correct? Or would I want a smith to do it for me?

1911 parts are simply NOT drop in. They have to be fitted properly to each gun. Improper fitting can result in an unsafe gun. Some people can do that themselves, after reading the Kuhnhausen manuals and buying the appropriate tools. Personally, I pay gunsmiths to do that kind of work.

Swartz style safeties can be removed, but some gunsmiths will not remove or disable safeties.

 

[soloman02]

I was confusing the firing pin safety with the grip safety. As such I was referring to the grip safety being replaced not the firing pin safety. I can see how the firing pin safety would be replaced by a gunsmith, though probably only if it was malfunctioning.

 

[M1911]

I was confusing the firing pin safety with the grip safety. As such I was referring to the grip safety being replaced not the firing pin safety. I can see how the firing pin safety would be replaced by a gunsmith, though probably only if it was malfunctioning.

The grip safety also needs careful fitting. It isn't drop-in. This is true of regular (not swartz-style) grip safeties. In fact, you have to change the radius of the frame itself when installing some grip safeties.

I can't think of anything on a 1911 other than the magazine, grip panels, grip screws, and (sometimes) magazine release that are drop-in. Just about everything else needs to be carefully fitted.

 

[soloman02]

Are there any disadvantages to the swartz style safeties over the series 70 types? Such as more of an chance of a click when you want a bang?

 

[M1911]

Are there any disadvantages to the swartz style safeties over the series 70 types? Such as more of an chance of a click when you want a bang?

Um, yes. That's why I wrote this above:

The Swartz style safety is a firing pin safety that disengages when you depress the grip safety. Since it is not associated with pulling the trigger, the Swartz style safety has the advantage that it does not affect trigger pull. The downside is that it can be unreliable if it is not fitted properly. There have been reports of failures to go bang with Kimber Series II as a result. There have been fewer reports (but still some) about the S&W 1911s. Here's an article by a gunsmith that describes the issue: http://10-8performance.com/id8.html

Follow that link and read the article. I've got 7 1911s. I don't want one with a Swartz style firing pin safety. YMMV.

 

[Ray-500]

I want to standardize my HD and CC gun so that my training time is reduced since I only have to focus on one style of gun (I have an XD9 sub and a Ruger P345 which require different training regimens since the Ruger is a decocker and the XD is a striker).

I also have the 1911 bug and am looking to get a 1911 that I can carry and use for HD. This is already a tall order from what I can discern. I'd like to keep it the gun in the "hand cannon" class, which means staying with .45.

I'm have a sinking feeling I'm not gonna find what I want at the price I want .

In case anyone couldn't tell, I like to pay as little as possible for what I want.

Now that I'm done writing my book, thoughts?

Not meaning to throw a monkey wrench into your thoughts, but have you checked out the Sig line? Over the years, have had a variety of Colt 1911's, GI 1911's (that were worked on), and Smith 1911. My Colts were bought brand new and subsequently worked on by a master gunsmith for use in Bullseye matches. His credentials were impeccable (now deceased). Shot many 2700's using the .45 in both center fire and 45 (all hardball). Pieces were flawless. Any loss was strictly me.

Since getting back into shooting, have tried Sig....just to do something different. Have a Blackwater edition (9 mm) that is flawless. At 30-40 ft. it is dead on with iron sights. Have a Sig P220 Equinox. Tested it at 25 yds. down to 18 feet. It is dead on using 230 gr. Just put a combo strobe/laser on the Equinox. Am thrilled. (see other posts on this item). Have an X-5 that I have been using in steel plate matches. Grin, my age, eyes and reflexes are slower, but that is no fault of the piece. It has been flawless.

Accuracy speaks for itself. Takedown and cleaning is simple. No bushing to mess with. Retract slide, push down lever, let slide go forward, basically done. Recoil guide/spring lifts out. Barrel follows. Clean and reassemble. All mags from Sig have functioned without error, and are easy to take apart and clean. No FTF, no stovepipes, no jams of any kind.

To put my money where my mouth is, have had on special order since 7/13/09 a P220 X-6. Do not have it yet and would not invest the bucks if I didn't think it would be worth it.

Disclaimer: No, I do not work for Sig, have no relationship with Sig...other than as a customer, and gain nothing from my post. Just trying to give you a possible different venue for your purposes/needs.

 

[soloman02]

Not meaning to throw a monkey wrench into your thoughts, but have you checked out the Sig line? Over the years, have had a variety of Colt 1911's, GI 1911's (that were worked on), and Smith 1911. My Colts were bought brand new and subsequently worked on by a master gunsmith for use in Bullseye matches. His credentials were impeccable (now deceased). Shot many 2700's using the .45 in both center fire and 45 (all hardball). Pieces were flawless. Any loss was strictly me.

Since getting back into shooting, have tried Sig....just to do something different. Have a Blackwater edition (9 mm) that is flawless. At 30-40 ft. it is dead on with iron sights. Have a Sig P220 Equinox. Tested it at 25 yds. down to 18 feet. It is dead on using 230 gr. Just put a combo strobe/laser on the Equinox. Am thrilled. (see other posts on this item). Have an X-5 that I have been using in steel plate matches. Grin, my age, eyes and reflexes are slower, but that is no fault of the piece. It has been flawless.

Accuracy speaks for itself. Takedown and cleaning is simple. No bushing to mess with. Retract slide, push down lever, let slide go forward, basically done. Recoil guide/spring lifts out. Barrel follows. Clean and reassemble. All mags from Sig have functioned without error, and are easy to take apart and clean. No FTF, no stovepipes, no jams of any kind.

To put my money where my mouth is, have had on special order since 7/13/09 a P220 X-6. Do not have it yet and would not invest the bucks if I didn't think it would be worth it.

Disclaimer: No, I do not work for Sig, have no relationship with Sig...other than as a customer, and gain nothing from my post. Just trying to give you a possible different venue for your purposes/needs.

I have thought about Sig, especially since they have a facility I can send the gun to for a complete cleaning when the gun needs it for about $100 that is 20 minutes away from me.

The thing is I highly doubt I will find any of the above makes new since most are out of my price range new. I have found maybe 3 sig 1911's for sale used on gunbroker and KTP has one used. This tells me a few things:

Either they sell very few and no one wants to part with them because they like them that much.
Or they sell very few because they aren't good quality and word got out that that is the case.
I never heard of the latter so I am guessing no one wants to part with them.

There does not seem to be a used market for them which makes it all but impossible to look for one.

 

[Ray-500]

I have thought about Sig, especially since they have a facility I can send the gun to for a complete cleaning when the gun needs it for about $100 that is 20 minutes away from me.

The thing is I highly doubt I will find any of the above makes new since most are out of my price range new. I have found maybe 3 sig 1911's for sale used on gunbroker and KTP has one used. This tells me a few things:

Either they sell very few and no one wants to part with them because they like them that much.
Or they sell very few because they aren't good quality and word got out that that is the case.
I never heard of the latter so I am guessing no one wants to part with them.

There does not seem to be a used market for them which makes it all but impossible to look for one.

Check out GunsAmerica.com. They have virtually anything you want, if it is at all available. Could be wrong, but I swear I saw a P220 Match Elite, w/adjustable sights, for around $1100. Go to the site, search for Sig P220 and see what comes up. Look for description and double check it on the Sig site for accuracy. Good luck.....from my viewpoint (only), you would not be disappointed.