kevin9
NES Member
Wasn't just carrying a rifle walking toward the school: "After Ramos had already opened fire outside the school, an officer had him in his sights."
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21 killed, 18 injured in shooting at elementary school in Uvalde, Texas
- Thread starter DispositionMatrix
- Start date
Clearly.
Dude. It's 2022. A kid is carrying a rifle toward a school entrance and you can put him down. Ummmm... put him down.
Nothing surprises me about this story anymore.
And the fact that any of the cops involved still have badges and are collecting a paycheck is disheartening to say the least.
It seems dragging this out is having the desired effect. Nobody gives a s*** about this story anymore.
And the fact that any of the cops involved still have badges and are collecting a paycheck is disheartening to say the least.
It seems dragging this out is having the desired effect. Nobody gives a s*** about this story anymore.
I guess I'll say at this point, if I ever do active shooter training for a school. I'm calling EVERY PD in the general area before I walk towards a school with a box of 'weapons'.
Horrible
NES Member
I am not defending the inaction here by any stretch, but one would be hard pressed to convince me that all of this BLM shit over the past few years didn’t have an effect on on this officer’s decision to get permission. Cost 20 lives and immeasurable amount of grief
I get that point of view, who am I to say much as I retired instead of putting up with it anymore. But damn, if you're putting on a badge, those decisions are what comes with the badge bunnies.
I'm not sure why BLM would make a difference in that particular situation?
Personally, I would understand the desire of ANYONE in a uniform to get permission before shooting at anything. I don't think that's an abnormal impulse at all. And I get that he might not have been clear that someone wasn't doing a drill or something.
But there'd already been reports of shots fired. The dispatcher had already put out the word that there was an active shooter. And this target was a man, holding a rifle and moving toward a school.
Come on.
MaverickNH
NES Member
Given 95%+ of mass shootings continue to occur in Gun Free Zones, the odds of shooting a “Good Guy with a Gun” are pretty slim.
In the Active Shooter drills I’ve been involved with in NH/ME, they park a squad car by the street and put up signs saying Police Practice Drill in Progress or some such, and notify neighboring agencies.
Tartakovsky
NES Member
That's by design. Criminals like low risk, target-rich environments.
BLM created an environment where even good shoots lead to bad career outcomes for cops because of public pressure based on propaganda and disinformation. Yes, they did so exclusively when the “victim” was black. Does that mean cops who were never racist in the first place might not internalize the message as “I’d better cover my ass, or I might get hung out to dry.” in place of “Here I’ve come to save the day.”?
Maybe.
I'm not sure that's BLM's doing, however. I think that's the impact of cellphones. In the beginning, cop shootings (good and bad) started getting caught on cameras. This led to outrage, and not just from minorities: NES has an entire thread consisting of nothing but outrage from our side, based on too-hasty police shoots. I think BLM rose out of that same outrage.
I said above that I understand a modern cop seeking permission before he shoots, and I do. I think that's because of cameras in general, not BLM in particular, but we're basically talking about the same thing. To a large degree, I'm in favor of cops NOT shooting.
In this case, there was a clear, present, and articulated danger, and that danger was heading toward a soft target in an environment where every cop in America knows it's not good to let armed madmen into elementary schools. His decision should have already been made.
I'm sure he'll never forgive himself. And that's good: he shouldn't.
Tartakovsky
NES Member
Who is responsible?
1. The media
2. Local government
3. Federal government
4. BLM
5. Bad cops (2%) ruining things for the good cops (98%)
NYC had 526 cops leave the department in the last 30 days. What's the point of arresting people over and over again if they're just going to get released over and over again? Why risk your life, your career, your livelihood over the possibility of some a**h*** resisting and you have to use force? I don't blame them for leaving. No support from the city or state.
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Being that I am from Texas…
Being that I am a Texas LTC instructor, as well as a School Marshal instructor, as well as a firearms instructor for Paramedics and firemen in Texas.
Being that I work closely with many in our Texas Legislatures…
Being that I work with Texas School systems…
The problem in Uvalde… was with the following…
1. poor police, and poor police training.
2. lack of proper school maintenance, and protocols.
3. lack of emergency critical incidence training and drills of school staff, faculty and students.
4. lack of school Marshall’s, security, and/or police actually on duty and stationed at the schools.
Sadly, many things in Texas will be changing. Many schools systems have been changing their protocols and policies.
In the city I live in, here in Texas. Our school district as well as our city now requires every school to have at least one school Marshall, one on duty police officer, and various undercover security personnel. As well as school drills are held monthly. School drills include, lock down (in), lock out, tornado, fire, and critical incidence. Principals, School Marshalls, police officer, and security personnel are held accountable for the drills.
Doors are checked for proper functionality daily. If a door is found not to be working correctly. Security is stationed at the door until it is fixed. Maintenance Staff are to treat it as high priority and is to be fixed ASAP. Their are alarms if the door is “jammed” open for more then 1 minute. And cameras are being installed to cover the entire school. Only one exception is bathrooms. Other security measures are being put in place and are being kept secret from those who do not need to know. To increase safety.
The school system is also starting a program to help those employees and students who need mental health care to get mental health care even if they can not afford it, and to do with without violating hippa, constitutional rights, or cause anyone any form of ridicule or embarrassment.
For those who really want to see change… it starts by giving everyone the respect and dignity they deserve, and helping those get the mental help they need without treating them with hate and disprespect.
Being that I am a Texas LTC instructor, as well as a School Marshal instructor, as well as a firearms instructor for Paramedics and firemen in Texas.
Being that I work closely with many in our Texas Legislatures…
Being that I work with Texas School systems…
The problem in Uvalde… was with the following…
1. poor police, and poor police training.
2. lack of proper school maintenance, and protocols.
3. lack of emergency critical incidence training and drills of school staff, faculty and students.
4. lack of school Marshall’s, security, and/or police actually on duty and stationed at the schools.
Sadly, many things in Texas will be changing. Many schools systems have been changing their protocols and policies.
In the city I live in, here in Texas. Our school district as well as our city now requires every school to have at least one school Marshall, one on duty police officer, and various undercover security personnel. As well as school drills are held monthly. School drills include, lock down (in), lock out, tornado, fire, and critical incidence. Principals, School Marshalls, police officer, and security personnel are held accountable for the drills.
Doors are checked for proper functionality daily. If a door is found not to be working correctly. Security is stationed at the door until it is fixed. Maintenance Staff are to treat it as high priority and is to be fixed ASAP. Their are alarms if the door is “jammed” open for more then 1 minute. And cameras are being installed to cover the entire school. Only one exception is bathrooms. Other security measures are being put in place and are being kept secret from those who do not need to know. To increase safety.
The school system is also starting a program to help those employees and students who need mental health care to get mental health care even if they can not afford it, and to do with without violating hippa, constitutional rights, or cause anyone any form of ridicule or embarrassment.
For those who really want to see change… it starts by giving everyone the respect and dignity they deserve, and helping those get the mental help they need without treating them with hate and disprespect.
Mesatchornug
NES Member
I'm sure we'll agree on points 1 and 4. Since you're claiming such authority here, can you clarify the information you have to so strongly say 2 and 3, seeing as the evidence that's come forth since the event and been presented here shows that they had a training session in the month leading up to the event and all the doors, etc. seem to have worked as designed?
Tartakovsky
NES Member
At least on point 2, for starters, the school was easily accessible by the shooter. The school's protocols required that the doors should have been locked going into the buildings and the classrooms. They were not. Initially, Arredondo said they didn't go into the classroom the shooter was in because his officers didn't have a key to the room on the ring of keys given to them by maintenance, which was a bold faced lie since it came out that the door was unlocked the whole time.
SFC13557
NES Member
It just keeps getting worse the more info comes out. Where is Governor Abbott on this situation? LT. Governor Patrick?
Tartakovsky
NES Member
Agreed. I am actually surprised we haven't heard more from Abbott and Paxton on this. Massive failure by the Uvalde District School Dept and School District Police Dept. Sheer incompetence everywhere. There needs to be real consequences for the inaction and gross negligence on behalf of both. Arredondo should either resign or be fired at least.
I'm not going to disagree with any of that. There just seems to be a dearth of the heroic in anything and everything the Uvalde cops did that day. Is it endemic to that department, the result of bad leadership, anti-cop litigiousness, or what? Maybe this guy was never tested and couldn't pull the trigger. Or maybe he could but is just one of those guys who needs daddy's permission to wipe his ass. No idea. On the training side, why did this cop think he could obtain CYA-level permission to dust the Uvalde shooter on the way in? I don't think that procedure can ever work until the situation becomes static.
xtry51
NES Member
Out cucking it up. This is why DeSantis is the only alternative to Trump currently. Spineless cowards are running the GOP everywhere.
So pretty much the same as the rest of the country?
Last edited:
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Something that hasn’t been widely publicized, is the fact that one of the exterior doors to the school, could not be locked because the door lock was broken.
The police never tried the door, and assumed it was locked.
Uvalde is a smaller school system, in a more predominately liberal area of Texas. They did not have school Marshall’s, security or law enforcement stationed at the school on a regular basis. Some of this may have been released, but is for the most part not widely publicized.
Some of the people in charge have been caught lieing as well. So it all depends on what you want to believe as well. The officer in charged even didn’t tell our own governor the entire truth. Needless to say some People will be loosing their jobs soon.
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Let’s say not very happy! And heads will be rolling soon. Right now they are looking at all of their alternatives on what actions would best be taken. Once those have been determined. Action will be taken. Even our State AG Ken Paxton is looking at possible legal intervention if warranted.
We've discussed both those factors at some length on this thread. They actually got fairly wide coverage.
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Guess that has changed. There’s only so much one can take of hearing on the news over ad over, before one decides to just turn it off, or find something else to watch.
Sadly… no mater what we do, there will continue to be mass murder, if not shootings, then bombings, or someone running some form of transportation into a building. If not one thing then another. It’s sad.
Fixxah
NES Member
With malice. Lots of malice. Like one full mag then reload...
MaverickNH
NES Member
Their Son Is Talking About School Shootings. Should They Call the Police?
For parents faced with potentially violent behavior, reporting their children for an act they might commit is a wrenching decision. “I had to save all of us from what could happen in the future.”
www.wsj.com
“In a study funded by the Justice Department, released by Dr. Straub’s center last year, researchers looked at 171 averted school violence incidents since April 1999—defined as a shooting, bombing, stabbing or other violent plot that was planned to be carried out on school property. Most of the cases involved lone actors with plans to use firearms.
Peers, who are well-placed to hear classmates talk about plots or see posts on social media, reported violent plans in about 51% of the thwarted incidents, the analysis found. School staff, including resource officers, discovered the plot 18% of the time. Parents of the suspects reported about 4% of cases.”
I don’t see upping the “reporting rate” of parents and school staff much, although awareness might boost the catch rate some. We all experienced “the secret life of teenagers” when we shined on adults to keep our adolescent social environment secure from adult intrusion.
The novel adds in recent years are social media, email, messaging, chats, gaming, etc. Kids spill as much electronically as they do face to face - probably even more. So, it’s tempting to spy on their comms. But nobody has the time, so they invoke AI to probe the psyches of kids by analyzing their comms. With lesser rights compared to adults, that’s an easier camel’s nose in the tent, driven by good intentions (the paving stones of the road to hell).
Rockrivr1
NES Member
Their Son Is Talking About School Shootings. Should They Call the Police?
For parents faced with potentially violent behavior, reporting their children for an act they might commit is a wrenching decision. “I had to save all of us from what could happen in the future.”
“In a study funded by the Justice Department, released by Dr. Straub’s center last year, researchers looked at 171 averted school violence incidents since April 1999—defined as a shooting, bombing, stabbing or other violent plot that was planned to be carried out on school property. Most of the cases involved lone actors with plans to use firearms.
Peers, who are well-placed to hear classmates talk about plots or see posts on social media, reported violent plans in about 51% of the thwarted incidents, the analysis found. School staff, including resource officers, discovered the plot 18% of the time. Parents of the suspects reported about 4% of cases.”
I don’t see upping the “reporting rate” of parents and school staff much, although awareness might boost the catch rate some. We all experienced “the secret life of teenagers” when we shined on adults to keep our adolescent social environment secure from adult intrusion.
The novel adds in recent years are social media, email, messaging, chats, gaming, etc. Kids spill as much electronically as they do face to face - probably even more. So, it’s tempting to spy on their comms. But nobody has the time, so they invoke AI to probe the psyches of kids by analyzing their comms. With lesser rights compared to adults, that’s an easier camel’s nose in the tent, driven by good intentions (the paving stones of the road to hell).
That's a tough one. Report your kid and (s)he's "F"ed for life. Don't report it and (s)he does something and they are all "F"ed for life. No win situation.
I just skimmed the article, but it seemed to me there was no lack of attempted psychological intervention over many years without involving the authorities. When you've tried all that and it hasn't worked, you have lost already. If you did nothing, what would you be basing that on? Hoping for a miracle that your criminally insane offspring will just "grow out of it"? No, by the time they're nearing adulthood, they're not growing out of it. The question is how badly are you going to lose here. You'll be lucky if they take you out first. It's an emotionally difficult decision, not a rationally difficult one.
commodon
NES Member
Video has been released... And it doesn't look good...
Exclusive video shows police responding to shooting inside Robb Elementary School
The video, obtained by the Austin American-Statesman and KVUE, shows the confusion inside Robb Elementary School as police stand outside classrooms.
www.statesman.com
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