3-gun noob advice kilothread

[jar]

I started having a discussion with DanS in the USCG 3gun thread (http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...-3gun-registration-open?p=1578724#post1578724) but thought it should be broken out.

I asked which of the two barrels I have available for my 500 that I should use for my first 3 gun match, 18.5" cylinder or 28" vent rib with screw in chokes. Dan said that given those choices chokes was a no brainer. He also asked which I'd use without the advice.

I'm not sure the answer to that, since going back and forth was why I asked the question in the first place. I was concerned that the 28" might be too long/unwieldy and the short barrel looks ATAS. I wasn't sure how important chokes were.

Re Chokes, what's a good default choke for 3 gun? I use modified for trap but also have IC and full. How tight a choke can you safely shoot slugs through?

What loads should I have for 3-gun matches? I use 3 dram 1 1/8 oz #8 for the clay games. Picking up some slugs and seeing how they shoot in my gun is on my to do list for before the match. What should I look for?

 

[Supermoto]

Tactical doesn't knock down steel, lead does.
I use either a IC or mod choke depending on the distance

For a pump gun I would shoot reduced recoil slugs and cheap bird shot

 

[zerodown]

Tactical doesn't knock down steel, lead does.
I use either a IC or mod choke depending on the distance

For a pump gun I would shoot reduced recoil slugs and cheap bird shot

+1 Here. IC or Mod are also the only chokes you want to use for both shot and slugs. Full is too much for a slug and you can blow the choke right out of the gun or turn it into a IC or Mod.

The problem you'll have with the cylinder bore is on steel of any distance. I've seen poppers not fall from 15-20 yards with an 18" cylinder barrel with cheap walmart ammo. Depending on the distances you may be able to get away with the 18" but move up to higher brass shells. The 28 will be a little long but you'll have to worry less about knocking down the target. I would be thinking more about shell storage and carry. You'll be loading a lot without a mag ext. and you'll want to have the shells easy to get to.

 

[jar]

Good point on carrying shells. Recommendations that don't break the bank?

 

[zerodown]

Based on the number of rounds for this match, I would recommend 2- 4 shell belt caddies. I find the 4 shells more manageable than the 6 round. Combine that with a weak hand arm band and you'll probably be able to carry enough for the match. If you don't want to buy all three, I have a 6 round that you are more than welcome to borrow for the match.

 

[Dan S]

Full is too much for a slug and you can blow the choke right out of the gun or turn it into a IC or Mod.

That's an old wives tale. Forster style slug are pure lead (extremely soft) and have ribs on them that will deform should the constriction be tight.

Go to Walmart, and get either Federal or Remington bulk packs of 7 1/2 shot, 1 1/8 ounce load, 3 dram will probably be what you find. You CAN change chokes between stages. If they give you crap, don't ever go back to that club again for a 3 gun match! I would go with the IC choke to start. If they have a Texas Star, switch to Modified. Especially if it's an MGM star. I have had and seen others shoot an MGM star and have hit the plates, watched them go back at the hit, then reseat! Bring a box of 6's for insurance. For slugs, get some Remington Managed Recoil slugs. They'll be about the same as the shot loads for recoil. If you can get Winchester and Federal reduced recoil slugs get some of them to, and test all 3 on paper. My Benelli does not like the Remington, but likes the Federal. My Super X likes the Remington slugs. The Benelli loads faster, so, Federal slugs.

 

[jar]

Thanks for the info. No 6s allowed for this match, but I'll keep it in mind for the future. Is there a noticeable difference with 7.5 vs 8? The walmart I checked last week didn't have any 12G slugs in stock, I'll check back or go to a different one.

Who makes decent shell caddies? I see the Choate 6 shell ones for dirt cheap, while the 4 shell ones I've seen are pretty pricey.

Pros cons of loading with the strong hand vs weak hand?

 

[zerodown]

I have a couple of the California Comp Works ones and have been very happy with them. THe belt clip is an absolute bitch but once they are on, they are on.

Pros / Cons - I would honestly say which ever you are fastest and most comfortable with at this point.

I'm left handed but I shoot righty so I am not very stable with weak hand reloads. I have trouble keeping the gun up using my right hand and tucking the butt in my armpit. Strong hand reloads are faster for me as I can just rotate and start loading. The extra balance using my left hand and right shoulder is more comfortable for me.

 

[Supermoto]

I reload weak hand, grab the mag, put the mag in... reloading 1 shell at a time is for suckas

 

[jar]

I'm equally slow and awkward with both. Shotgun is totally new to me other than trap and sporting clays where you only load one or two. Weak hand from caddies seems to be the place to end up unless there's something I'm missing.

 

[Dan S]

I'm equally slow and awkward with both. Shotgun is totally new to me other than trap and sporting clays where you only load one or two. Weak hand from caddies seems to be the place to end up unless there's something I'm missing.

Okay, the key is trial and practice. Trial to find the best one to start with, then, practice the heck out of it!
Get a box of dummy ammo, no, not snap caps. Get the full box of 25, not just 5.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=16762/pid=31872/sku/Shotgun_Dummies__12_GA_2_3_4___per_25
These work just like regular ammo, and have good crimps. The ones I have are actually Remington dummies.
I load weak hand off the belt. I've used Choate 6 round caddies for several years, but recently purchase some 4 round caddies by Mark Otto. Mark's caddies are adjustable for length, as slugs can often be a bit longer than shot shells. They are machined aluminum and have Blade Tech Techloks for belt attachment. The Choate caddies will need some of the smooth half of sticky velcro added to keep the shells stable, especially if you are using 6 rounders. I'd grab 4 and go to the next caddy, leaving the remaning 2 for an Oh Crap! moment.
A lot of people will load off a side saddle, grabbing one at a time. Get a velcro attached elastic side saddle. The bolt on ones can bind the gun up if the screws are over tightened. Loading off the side saddle usually requires turning the gun over and holding with the weak hand, while stuffing with the strong. This method is sometimes refered to as "Turn and Burn". The "Burn" is sometimes your hand on the barrel.
Some put the stock on top of the shoulder, some under the arm. Even weak handed, I tuck the stock under my arm. It helps keep the gun stable, and requires less movement to start the loading and return to firing position.
Another version, kind of cross between the weak hand and Turn and Burn is rotating the shotgun over, and grabbing 4 shells with the weak hand and loading them. Shawn Carlock did it that way, but, maybe he stuffed with his strong hand. I did it weak hand when I shot my Super X model 1. That gun requires pressing the carrier release to allow loading. It's my back up, and I practiced my normal weak hand loading.
A friend of mine in Colorado uses a bandolier and loads one at a time. The bandolier is again a Mark Otto item. Some of Mark's products can be purchased here.
http://www.3gunstuff.com/shotgun.htm
I know he's on Facebook too.
Whatever method you choose practice the heck out of it!
One other thing. When you load your shotgun at the match, either preloading (if they do it) or at the Make Ready command, load the same way you will after the buzzer, ie. weak hand, turn and burn, etc. It just reinforces what you want to do on the clock.

 

[ScottS]

Another vote here for the dummy shells from Brownells. I bought the box of 25 also, and they are worth their weight in gold for practice reloading. Feeding a shotgun is just an unnatural thing, and I had dummy shells all over my basement floor at one point.

I shoot a pump, and I keep 6 in the side saddle and wear 2 4-round caddies on my belt. (I tried the 6-round caddies, but it would be easier and quicker for me to just throw 6 rounds on the ground and load from there, because that's where they end up every time). I'm a turn and burn reloader. Pull the shotgun back, rotate it upside down (the "turn" part) with your support hand just forward of the receiver (This can be the "burn" part. So far so good.), clamp it to your side with the strong side elbow, and the sidesaddle presents the rounds to your strong hand right next to the loading port. I keep my belt-mounted caddies just right of centerline. It can be pretty quick, and for me it's a lot more controlled than any weak-hand technique I've found. The key is practice with the dummy shells, and find out what works.

I shot a 3-gun recently in NY (Tioga Sportsman), and one stage was shotgun-only, poppers and clays, 26-round minimum for the stage, and you could only start with 5 rounds in the gun. Think about how much reloading that was, the ammo carriage issues (Five in the gun (5), I had side-saddle full (6), two caddies (8), and had almost a full box in the right bellows pocket of my vest.) On top of that, you had to manage your reloads because they had a couple of poppers that threw clay birds up when they fell. I saw two guys in my squad drop a popper and "click" on the thrown bird.

Gotta love 3-gun.

 

[skol]

Thanks for the info. No 6s allowed for this match, but I'll keep it in mind for the future. Is there a noticeable difference with 7.5 vs 8? The walmart I checked last week didn't have any 12G slugs in stock, I'll check back or go to a different one.

Who makes decent shell caddies? I see the Choate 6 shell ones for dirt cheap, while the 4 shell ones I've seen are pretty pricey.

Pros cons of loading with the strong hand vs weak hand?

Last year there was no slugs. I also used no6 shot last year as well. Where did you see no 6?

 

[skol]

Last year there was no slugs. I also used no6 shot last year as well. Where did you see no 6?

Nevermind, I see it now.

 

[whtmtnhiker54]

What the hell is a freakin' "KILOTHREAD"??????

 

[jar]

It's like a megathread, but not as big.

 

[Dan S]

Jar,
Have you considered having choke tubes installed in the short barrel? That's another option for you. All my older guns had the barrels chopped and screw in chokes installed.

 

[Dan S]

If you're shooting an autoloader, here's something else to learn.
What is the fastest way to load the chamber on a staged gun that has the magazine tube loaded, and an empty chamber? I have a Remington, Winchester and Benelli, they are all different in this regard. Only the Winchester can have the tube loaded with the hammer down.
Supermoto......Saigas are exempted from this question.

 

[jar]

Jar,
Have you considered having choke tubes installed in the short barrel? That's another option for you. All my older guns had the barrels chopped and screw in chokes installed.

I don't want to shoot the Mossberg forever. If I get into 3-gun at all seriously, I'm going to get a nice auto. I'm watching the potential Benelli group buy with great interest to try and swing an M2 Field. If I end up there eventually, no need to spend the money on putting chokes in the 500 short term.

 

[skol]

I just use an 870 express with a modified choke (7 rounds) and a 6 round side saddle, and a 4 round belt carrier if needed. Last year the most you needed in any stage was 12 rounds.

 

[skol]

Also if you switch squads and squad with me on Sunday you could use my shotty if you wanted.

 

[Dan S]

Wow! I never figured that all possible questions could be aswered so quickly.

 

[jar]

How do you arrange your gear on the belt, and do you change it from stage to stage? I'm planning to keep my pistol gear in the same places I use for shooting production in pistol matches. I have a 40 round AR mag, so I probably won't need to reload very often for rifle, but I still want a backup mag. I ordered two choate 6 round shotgun carriers for now. I'm planning to put those pretty much front and center. What kind of carrier do you use for AR mags and should it be in front of or behind the pistol mags?

 

[Supermoto]

I don't use it but people have good things to say about the ELS belt system by Safariland

I use blade-tech AR mag pouches, with the Tek-lok, I can move them around quickly depending on what the stage requires. I run them behind the pistol mags

 

[jar]

Do you run your pistol mags forward of the hip point though?

 

[Supermoto]

I don't believe there is a holster and mag pouch location requirement in 3 Gun.

 

[jar]

Yeah, I know, I just want to keep my pistol mags in the same place. I have tons of reps reloading from the production/IDPA legal location and none from up front.

 

[ScottS]

I'm not as experienced, but I also use Blade-Tech Tek-lok AR mag pouches. I slip one on for a rifle stage just aft of my hip. Pistol mags at hip and forward. For a shotgun stage, I slip on 2 California Comp Works 4 rd Speed Strippers right of mid-line, just forward of my holster.

 

[Supermoto]

Yeah, I know, I just want to keep my pistol mags in the same place. I have tons of reps reloading from the production/IDPA legal location and none from up front.

If you aren't going to change your pistol mag location. I would run the mags in the order you are going to be using them.

 

[Dan S]

It depends on the stage. Pistol mags, usually only 1 or 2 pouches, are in the usual postition, roughly hip bone back. I place my pistol mags there all the time. Shotshell caddies start in front and go around to the mag pouches. AR pouches in back. I use the Blade Tech AR mag holders. Keep in mind that you may not need some equipment due to the stages. Except for the Iron Man, you usually don't need a ton of ammo or mags on a stage.