.357 Mag COL question (with some backstory)

efelton

NES Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
42
Likes
16
Feedback: 25 / 0 / 0
Question:
Every source I can find says a .357 Mag case should be no longer than 1.590" (SAAMI) but my Hogdon Reloading guide, on page 158 states "158 GR. Cast LSWC COL:1.610". Is it safe to make a .357 Mag cartage 1.610"?

Backstory:
I am just starting reloading and I've picked up a used Lee Pro 1000 and a bunch of die sets, including 38/357. I was able to get an 8lbs jug of Titegroup from a friend, so I'll be using that to start with. I haven't been able to find Small Pistol Primers but I found a case of Winchester Small Pistol Magnum primers so I figured I would start reloading .357 Mag.

I have 158gr Plated bullets from XTreme (FP and RNFP) with the crimping groove. I am under the impression that Plated bullets can\should be treated the same a lead bullets when looking at reloading data.

Are the Flat Point and Round Nose Flat point bullets that different from the Semi-Wadcutter so that COL is affected?

ReloadAmmo as the same load information for 158 grain LSWC or LRN (Semi-Wad Cutter or Round Nose) but no COL.

And My Lyman 48th reloading manual does not have Titegroup (but reinforces the 1.590" COL maximum).

I've checked everywhere on the Internet I can think of so now I'm here asking for help.

Thank you
Erik
 
Last edited:
At first thought, keep the velocities reasonable and seat the canulure into the case mouth for a proper crimp.

This is just me, but I never got really wound up over COAL unless i was flirting with max charges. Mostly my main concern with COAL is whether the round will function in a given firearm.
 
This is just me, but I never got really wound up over COAL unless i was flirting with max charges. Mostly my main concern with COAL is whether the round will function in a given firearm.

This, mostly. If you load straight walled cases longer, pressure tends to go down, but eventually you either get too close (or hit) the rifling, and that can cause a pressure spike.

On a wheel gun, you won't run in to this because there is a forcing cone between the cylinder and rifling, so if 1.610" fits in your cylinder, it's ok to load to that.

On my USPSA gun for example, it does fine with 40SW loaded to 1.150" which is longer than SAAMI specs for that cartridge (1.135")
 
As thormx said, if it fit's in your cylinder you should be fine.

I use 1.575" for a COL in my 357 mag loads simply because that's where the middle of the cannelure falls with the jacketed bullets I use.

I have only used Titegroup in 357 for lighter (38 spl like) loads and didn't use magnum primers. I see Hodgdon recommends a magnum primer but I'm not sure that is really necessary. Since you said you are "just starting reloading", I'll tell you that just because you're reloading a "magnum" caliber, does not mean that you need to use a magnum primer. The only time I use a magnum primer in 357 is when I use H110 or Win 296 powder as they are very slow burning (harder to ignite) powders. If I were you, I'd try to find some H110/296 to play around with since you have magnum primers - if you want full house true magnum loads.

I've used xtreme bullets in 357 and 44 mag and they seem to hold up well with near max loads of 2400 or H110 powder and using a firm roll crimp (they recommend a max velocity of 1500 fps). Though you'll want to start low and work your way up to look for pressure signs.
 
If you are loading for your own revolver, measure the cylinder with a case in the chamber you're measuring. This is that guns absolute maximum COL. Any longer and the cylinder won't close/rotate due to the round sticking out of the front of the cylinder. Depending on bullet profile, you may interfere with the cylinder throat before the rim actually headspaces.

Here are some Lyman 358315s (205gr GCRN) loaded into .38 Specials @ 1.650" COL:



 
I load quite a bit of 357 coated SWC's all of them at 1.610

357.jpg

I never really had great luck with Titegroup with that bullet though. Best accuracy I could get was a max load (5.0).

Personally I got better results with W231, Unique, and my personal favorite H110.
 
Thank you Andrew for the "middle of the cannelure" clue. I set my seating and crimp dies to hit right in the middle and COL is right at 1.590"
good_cartrage.jpg

Here's a practice one that's a tad too long
slightly_long_practice.jpg

From earlier experiments, when the seating die was backed too far out, I crimped the bullet enough to deform it.
deformed_bullet.jpg

And at some point I had my expanding die set very wrong and created this case
deformed_case.jpg

Thank you all for your help and advice.
 
Those crimps look VERY strong for a plated bullet. I don't think my crimps are that strong even with jacketed bullets using 2400 (much slower burning powder than titegroup). Have you shot these yet to see how they shoot? Are you deforming the bullet?
 
I have not shot these. I'm trying to set up the press. I haven't even started playing with the powder measure.
When I use the bullet-extracting hammer to take everything apart I can see a ring around the bullet where the crimp was.

What do I need to adjust to make the crimps less-strong? I am using a "Lee 38 Spc A2" Seat and crimp die. If I back out the bullet-seating adjuster the COL is too long. Do I need to back the die itself out and then re-adjust the bullet seater? Or is there something else I'm missing.

Thanks for the advice!
 
When using the integral roll crimp inside the seating die, you can back out the die body or insert a shim under the die locknut to do the same thing.
When you adjust your die initially, you can raise an empty case and screw your die body down until you feel it contact the mouth of the case. Back off about a half turn so the roll crimp isn't touching the case while seating the bullets. Adjust your seating top punch to seat a live round correctly and seat all of your bullets.
Now back the seater top punch out so it doesn't contact your round as you screw the die body down to apply the correct roll crimp.
Generally, it's best to seat and crimp in two separate steps, not simultaneously.
As a rule, pistol brass doesn't get too out of shape by stretching and such, but you can see how the roll crimp will vary with differing case lengths.
 
You have WAY too much crimp. Don't load any more like that. You've essentially ruined those cases.

Here's how you set up a combination seat/crimp die:


  1. Take the seat/crimp die out of the press and back the seating stem almost all the way out.

  2. Put a sized, unbelled (unexpanded), and unprimed case in the shell holder, and run the ram all the way up.

  3. Screw the seat/crimp die back into the press until you feel the inside of the die body contact the case, then back it out 1 turn (you don’t want it to crimp yet).

  4. Temporarily lock the die in place while you create a test round.

  5. Place a bullet on the belled case, then run it up into the die, gradually lowering the seating stem each time until your bullet is seated to the proper cartridge overall length. This is your ‘test round’.

  6. Back the seating stem out a few turns, unlock the die, and run the test round back up into the die.

  7. Screw the die body down until you feel it contact the belled case, lower the ram, and screw the die down an additional turn.

  8. Run the test round back up into the die to crimp it. Adjust the crimp as necessary.

  9. Lock the die in place, run the test case up into the die, adjust the seating stem until contacts the top of the seated bullet, and lock it in place
 
Last edited:
Here's an alternate method:


  1. Take the seat/crimp die out of the press and back the seating stem almost all the way out.

  2. Put a round of .357 Mag ammo in the shell holder, and run the ram all the way up.

  3. Screw the seat/crimp die back into the press until you feel the inside of the die body contact the case mouth.

  4. Lower the ram (to make room), then screw in the die an additional 1/2 turn and lock it in place.

  5. Remove the factory round and make a test round, adjusting the crimp if needed. Use the seating stem to adjust the C.O.A.L. so that the case mouth ends up in the top 1/3 of the cannelure/crimp groove.
 
Thank you NavelOffice and EddieCoyle. I have reset the die based on your recipes and here are the cartridges I assembled.

new_crimp1.jpgnew_crimp2.jpg
These crimps are no longer biting into the bullet.

All cartridges fit into my case gauge, although there is a slight hesitation at the neck, so I might have to adjust the crimp a hair.

Also, all components that I'm using for adjusting my dies will be thrown away and never used for live ammo.

Thank you, all, again for your advice.
 
Last edited:
You may find that when you only have a shallow cannelure, you don't have much space to roll the mouth into. As a result, too much crimp may tend to compress the case and bulge it. Bullets with and actual crimp groove (mostly on cast bullets) give you a much better crimp due to having the deeper groove to roll the crimp into.
For example:
 
Thank you NavelOffice and EddieCoyle. I have reset the die based on your recipes and here are the cartridges I assembled.

View attachment 178007View attachment 178008
These crimps are no longer biting into the bullet.

All cartridges fit into my case gauge, although there is a slight hesitation at the neck, so I might have to adjust the crimp a hair.

Also, all components that I'm using for adjusting my dies will be thrown away and never used for live ammo.

Thank you, all, again for your advice.

These look like they might not have enough crimp.

Try resetting the die using the "factory round" method I described above.
 
Well, I generalized when I said "a ton" but I would be safe to say that I cast a few thousand a year, and it is a lot of gas checks! It's my primary hunting bullet as well.
 
Well, I generalized when I said "a ton" but I would be safe to say that I cast a few thousand a year, and it is a lot of gas checks! It's my primary hunting bullet as well.

Roger. Just playing with you...

Do you use this bullet in rifle or handgun applications (or both)?
I'd imagine it does the job quite well for hunting...
 
Third Attempt at a good crimp. After much fiddling these look like the factory round, and they slide into the case gauge without hanging up.


third_crimp1.jpgthird_crimp2.jpgthird_crimp_vs_factory.jpg

Thank you again for helping me get this far.
 
Yeah those look better. Still looks like a firm crimp but nothing like your previous rounds. I'd shoot them and see how they group and if there are any pressure signs.
 
efelton: do you understand the difference between case length and CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH (the cartridge is the case plus bullet)?
COL for revolvers is VERY easy--roll crimp in the crimp groove (lead bullets) or cannelure (jacketed bullets) and ignore the test COL. The only represents what the test COL was and, unless you have the same lot of powder, exactly the same bullets, the same lot of primers, and the same cases, means NOTHING in terms of YOUR reloading.
The critical thing is you start at the start load and work up. I like to check several sources and start and start at the lowest start load.
 
@noylj: I am aware there is a difference between case length and cartage length. I have decided to start reloading with straight-walled pistol cartridges so avoid having to resize rifle cases. Also I don't own a non-22LR rifle (yet) so I have no need to invest in rifle reloading (yet).

I asked my original question about COL because I was getting conflicting information from SAMMI and the reloading manuals. After learning about the "crimp where the groove\cannelure is" I have been able to keep my COL within SAMMI specifications.

Thank you for reaching out.
 
After many weeks of house chores and other interruptions (and cleaning the press) I finally got to make a batch of cartridges. the very first one I made was on 11/5/2106...then I had to unexpectedly stop. The rest of the batch were made last night! Now that I have live rounds I can take them to the range and see how they perform.

My sincere thanks to everyone who helped me with this project.

2016-11-08 20.03.08.jpg2016-11-08 20.03.33.jpg
 
I was able to shoot some of my first batch without issue so I went back to the press for round 2.

74 finished cartridges (I wanted to keep the same head-stamp, and that's all the brass I had)
2016-11-30 17.32.23.jpg

I ran it some issues. The first one I think is common on the Lee Pro 1000: sideways-primer.

2016-11-30 17.21.15.jpg

This one is more interesting, at least to me. When I sat the bullet, at the down stroke of station 3, the whole bullet slid into case and came to a rest on the top of the powder. I didn't want to break the progression so I crimped the brass and kept going.

2016-11-30 17.20.59.jpg

I took both rejects apart and recycled the pieces.

Again, thank you for all your help and guidance with this project.
 
This one is more interesting, at least to me. When I sat the bullet, at the down stroke of station 3, the whole bullet slid into case and came to a rest on the top of the powder. I didn't want to break the progression so I crimped the brass and kept going.

View attachment 183907

I took both rejects apart and recycled the pieces.

Again, thank you for all your help and guidance with this project.

I've only ran into this with PPU brass in 357 and 44 mag brass. Though you're using Winchester brass which I've never had issues with. It may be a bad case? Expanding the casemouth too much?
 
I've only ran into this with PPU brass in 357 and 44 mag brass. Though you're using Winchester brass which I've never had issues with. It may be a bad case? Expanding the casemouth too much?

It might also be possible that the bullet was slightly smaller than spec.

The brass is all range-brass, and it looks like somebody took a sharpie to the backs of some of these cases. It might have been a twice-fired (or more) case that was wider that expected. But I would have thought that the resizing die would have brought the case back into spec..at least the outside diameter.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
It might also be possible that the bullet was slightly smaller than spec.

The brass is all range-brass, and it looks like somebody took a sharpie to the backs of some of these cases. It might have been a twice-fired (or more) case that was wider that expected. But I would have thought that the resizing die would have brought the case back into spec..at least the outside diameter.

Thanks for the feedback.

Yeah it's ceetainly possible that the bullet is undersized. What brand of bullet/weight? Just curious.

If you found these at the range and they have sharpie marks on them, it could be brass that's been fired a lot? I'd just scrap that case that's giving you problems.
 
Back
Top Bottom