40 vs 45 or 9mm

Nickle said:
Cross-X said:
Stingers? You have Stingers?

A baker's dozen and you still didn't share?

Shame, shame, shame!

Aw, keep the Stingers. If you let an airplane get that close, you can be on the receiving end of CAS. Not good.

Personally, I prefer IHAWK or Nike-Herc.

That's fine, at least I can fire mine from my shoulder. And it the target is visible it is hittable.

ETA: If it's that close I will knock it out of the sky. [wink]
 
Just look into the scope. That's what 16E's are for. We used to call them "16 Scope Dopes". Of course, the missile crewmen (16D's) we called "16 Dummies". I had the misfortune of spending my last 6 years Regular Army in HAWK missile Battalions. And people wonder WHY I got out.
 
I saw somewhere here the list of pistols approved by MA that includes Rock Island .45, a brand manufactured by Armscor Precessions. Can somebody here verify where are these made or which country these pistols are coming from? Just curious because if passed MA's stiff gun law! Which only means that these are, or maybe, good pistols!

Is my conclusion correct here?

Anyhow I hope somebody here could answer where these pistols are coming from or where are they manufactured.

Thanks a lot... :D
 
hiram_Abiff said:
I saw somewhere here the list of pistols approved by MA that includes Rock Island .45, a brand manufactured by Armscor Precessions. Can somebody here verify where are these made or which country these pistols are coming from? Just curious because if passed MA's stiff gun law! Which only means that these are, or maybe, good pistols!

Is my conclusion correct here?

Last I heard, Rock Island, Charles Dales and Armscor were all manufactured at the same plant in the Phillipines. Don't have any first hand experience with any of their recent models, so I can't comment on the quality. As to the MA approved list, it really doesn't say much of anything about quality. Just look at the very high quality guns that aren't on the list, e.g., CZ, Ed Brown, H-K, Kimber, Les Baer. Why? Because the expected volume and margin from Massachusetts sales wouldn't justify the expenses reauired by the testing process. That's the primary reason that MA won't accept the certification based on the essentially identical tests reauired for California; the combined markets would allow more guns to become available here, defeating the real reason for the law. Basically, the fact that a gun is available for sale here means that
  • it isn't complete and worthless crap (though some would dispute that),
    the expected sales volume and margin are high enough to justify the required testing, and
    it has a loaded chamber indicator, magazine disconnect, or certain other locking or safety mechanism.
Just means that they spent the time and money to jump through the hoops, and maybe to add some so-called (but meaningless) safety gizmo.

Ken
 
I spoke with a H&K rep and he mirrored Ken's statements. They don't want to spend the money to make MA compliant firearms, only to have the AG and the rest of the Lawmakers change the laws again on features.
 
KMaurer said:
hiram_Abiff said:
I saw somewhere here the list of pistols approved by MA that includes Rock Island .45, a brand manufactured by Armscor Precessions. Can somebody here verify where are these made or which country these pistols are coming from? Just curious because if passed MA's stiff gun law! Which only means that these are, or maybe, good pistols!

Is my conclusion correct here?

Last I heard, Rock Island, Charles Dales and Armscor were all manufactured at the same plant in the Phillipines. Don't have any first hand experience with any of their recent models, so I can't comment on the quality. As to the MA approved list, it really doesn't say much of anything about quality. Just look at the very high quality guns that aren't on the list, e.g., CZ, Ed Brown, H-K, Kimber, Les Baer. Why? Because the expected volume and margin from Massachusetts sales wouldn't justify the expenses reauired by the testing process. That's the primary reason that MA won't accept the certification based on the essentially identical tests reauired for California; the combined markets would allow more guns to become available here, defeating the real reason for the law. Basically, the fact that a gun is available for sale here means that
  • it isn't complete and worthless crap (though some would dispute that),
    the expected sales volume and margin are high enough to justify the required testing, and
    it has a loaded chamber indicator, magazine disconnect, or certain other locking or safety mechanism.
Just means that they spent the time and money to jump through the hoops, and maybe to add some so-called (but meaningless) safety gizmo.

Ken

Thanks sir. I just thought that they were really are from Phils. except that they are competitions here... could just be one of their marketing schemes. On the list of MA approved pistols it shows that Rock Island is a product of Armscor, that we are not aware of it in here! :eek:

In regards to quality, many shooters here are using customized Armscor pistols and in fact often heard that they travel outside the country for shooting competitions and won some using Armscor pistols. Prices of those starts from $800.00 and $1500.00 or even higher.

Thanks.
 
9-10 June 2008 Quips - Posted by John S. Farnam on 17 Jun 2008

9 June 08

The Amaranthine 9mm:

At several recent Pistol Courses, we’ve had small-statured students, mostly women, show up with little, 40S&W pistols, like the G27, SIG 239, and Kahr/40. All have reported a rapidly-diminishing interest in additional shooting after the two-hundred-round mark!

The 40S&W pistols they brought to our Courses had been provided to them by well-meaning husbands, fathers, brothers, and fiancees. However, sharp recoil (even with “practice” ammunition) combined with loud, concussive muzzle-blast conspired to progressively diminish their enthusiasm for continuing with their training. In one case, my student even developed a blistered palm!

I suggested to all that they abandon their 40S&W pistols and substitute 9mms. Upon taking my advice, most rediscovered their interest in continuing with the Program! Even with the most powerful, high-performance 9mm loadings, recoil is still relatively mild, and noise is greatly reduced. Control of the pistol during recoil is also significantly improved. Particularly popular was S&W’s M&P/Compact 9mm, with the smallest of the three grip-size options.

40S&W and the 357SIG are wonderful calibers, and both represent substantial improvement in terminal performance over the 9mm. However, modern, high-performance loadings currently available for the 9mm surely also qualify it as a “serious” caliber, and I, for one, would have no compunction about carrying a 9mm pistol for personal self-defense, loaded with nearly any modern, 100-125gr high-performance round from Cor-Bon, WW, Remington, Federal, Speer, and a number of other reputable manufacturers.

Of course, most of us agree that 9mm hardball is not appropriate for serious applications and is suitable only for practice. On the other hand, given the choice, I wouldn’t carry hardball ammunition, in any caliber, anywhere except the practice range.

Glib predictions of the decline and eventual death of the 9mm appear to have been untimely and naive. With interest in personal-defensive pistols surging among women, and even small-statured men for whom the discipline of serious shooting has held scant interest until recent times, the 9mm will likely be around for at least another hundred years!

/John


Copyright © 2014 Defense Training International, Inc
<http://defense-training.com/dti/june-2008-quips/>

10 June 08

Sage follow-up comments on the 9mm- and modern times:

From Irv Stone at Bar-Sto Precision, barrel-maker… second to none:

“Recently, we’ve seen a big increase in 9mm barrel orders here. We have always manufactured and recommended 9mm conversion barrels for the G23, 27, 32, and 33. Nearly any 40S&W pistol can be easily and quickly converted to 9mm, and, with our barrels, they run smoothly and reliably. It’s a good option for heavy training, while not beating yourself to death and/or breaking the bank!”

You can get hold of Irv directly at [email protected] Recommended!

From my long-time friend and colleague, Claude Werner, at the celebrated Rogers School:

“Even for men, we advise bringing 9mm handguns to the Rogers School! Many decline this advice and bring 40s and 357s. More than half of the time, we are compelled to provide these same optimists with 9mm loaners, starting with the third day (five-day Program), just to get them though the balance of the Course!

As you say, terminal performance with 40s and 357s is surely respectable, but both are
difficult to train with, particularly in high-volume Courses such as ours. In fact, no student has ever earned a higher than ‘Basic’ with a 357. Few can do anything better than passable work with it, and I’ve had to upgrade my electronic earmuffs just to be around them, so obnoxious is the ‘over-pressure event’ (our term for ‘concussion’) with that caliber.

From my old friend, Dave Spaulding:

“Considering the current shocking disparity in price between 9mm and 40/357, I have seen many move to the 9mm, just so they can continue to practice with live ammo!”

From a friend and colleague in the Philippines:

“Particularly for those who live places other than the USA, the 9mm is almost always the only viable pistol-caliber choice. However, unlike you spoiled Americans, those of us from other parts of the world will have to use hardball ammunition for the foreseeable future, if only because superior ammunition is unavailable, or restricted by law.

This ‘prison-of-circumstance’ highlights the importance of being able to achieve multiple, precise hits on the vital areas of a human target, quickly. When hardball is all you have, you dare not wager your life on the unlikely probability of a one-shot, or two-shot, stop. Rather, a definitive burst of well-aimed shots will likely be required if the fight is to end quickly, and in this scenario, a high-capacity 9mm will satisfactorily support the tactic, assuming the Operator is competent. When we consider that we will not always have two hands with which to operate the pistol, the 9mm’s value becomes even more evident.

Carrying more ammo than you think you could ever possibly need is also a capitol idea! Figure on two, spare magazines, and more in your car.

I’m confident the foregoing sounds anything but comforting to many Operators in the USA, but, then again, gunfights have never been ‘comforting’ events, whether your pistol is loaded with hardball or DPX!”

/John

Copyright © 2014 Defense Training International, Inc
<http://defense-training.com/dti/june-2008-quips/>

(This thread needed a bump.)
 
Just my opinion but as a range gun I like 9mm. Its affordable and is a fun round to shoot. I also like 40. My CCW gun right now is a 9mm. With 147gr Hydra Shok ammo I feel good with the power. I believe its all personal preference.
 
Yep - that is what I tell every one.... my palm is blistered because I shoot a 40.

And when I remember to buy lube, and people ask if I stopped shooting, I tell them I switched to 9mm and the blisters went away. [wink]
 
So this just confirms that 9mm is for women and pajama wearing beta males

I choose a caliber that is appropriate for the game I am playing and the rules that govern the game. Sometimes that means I have to wear my pajama pants. But I'm OK with that as long as I look good wearing them.

For PD I carry a 45
 
Personally I enjoy 9mm, for training it's a great plentiful, affordable round. I do like 40 and 45 but have geared towards 9mm. I find 45 easier shooting than 40 which is snappy.
 
I enjoy shooting 45, 40, and 9mm. They are all very different related to recoil impulse. The only round that counts is the one you can put on target efficiently and with a high degree of accuracy. As far as the pistol calibers you inquired about; multiple rounds on target are going to be the key to any of them being effective. Having more capacity rather than less is never a bad idea in my opinion. People tend to not like to "leak" and it would pretty much suck being shot by any caliber. That being said I don't know anyone who would bring a pistol/revolver to a gunfight if they had a choice. The only tool that matters is the one you have with you when needed! I would rather have a 380 on my person than a 308 in my safe;)
 
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