4473 and Different Addresses

[soloman02]

Ok I have a friend who just tried to purchase a handgun here in NH. He is an NH resident. Now 6 months ago he moved to a new apartment. However, he never changed his legal address to the new apartment. As such, his legal address is still his parents address (same town).

So he went to buy the gun but told the shop his residence is different from his address since he never changed it (yes this was a mistake IMHO, hindsight is 20/20 though). The shop would not allow him to use his legal address on the form and insisted that he bring three months of utility bills from his new apartments address.

So the clerk said he would be filling out section 2 of the 4473 with his new address that is NOT his legal address (hell his mailing address is still the same as his legal!). As far as the state of NH and federal government are concerned, he still lives with his parents.

Did the clerk just tell him to commit a felony since he would by lying about his address?

ETA: He didn't fill out the form because he had to drive back to get the utility bills and has decided to just go back another day, but they may still pull this since they may remember him.

 

[Kevin_NH]

Current Residence Address

Sounds like the clerk did the right thing. Better than the guy at Riley's who insisted he needed to sharpie my residence address onto the back of my NH driver's license before he could transfer a handgun to me.

The wording on 4473 for Section 2 is "Current Residence Address", not "Legal Address", see also the wording on the back of the form and the instructions BATFE gives to FFLs (See ATF Rul. 2001-5) for how to validate residence.

With the exception mentioned above, I just bring in my current vehicle registration for the FFL to examine; it shows both my mailing address and (in tiny print) actual residence address.

 

[soam]

Your "legal address" doesn't really matter when it comes to the 4473, only where you are currently residing. If you are living in a new home, but didn't change the address on your driver's license, your residence address is the address of your new home, not the address on your driver's license. The clerk at the shop was doing the right thing.

 

[cekim]

Your "legal address" doesn't really matter when it comes to the 4473, only where you are currently residing. If you are living in a new home, but didn't change the address on your driver's license, your residence address is the address of your new home, not the address on your driver's license. The clerk at the shop was doing the right thing.

Yep, yep and yep - current residence, alternate form of verification, yada, yada... All well within the guidance provided both by the ATF and on the form itself.

 

[soloman02]

Sounds like the clerk did the right thing. Better than the guy at Riley's who insisted he needed to sharpie my residence address onto the back of my NH driver's license before he could transfer a handgun to me.

The wording on 4473 for Section 2 is "Current Residence Address", not "Legal Address", see also the wording on the back of the form and the instructions BATFE gives to FFLs (See ATF Rul. 2001-5) for how to validate residence.

With the exception mentioned above, I just bring in my current vehicle registration for the FFL to examine; it shows both my mailing address and (in tiny print) actual residence address.

According to the ATF ruling you linked, a law is still being broken as the secondary document that verifies residence must be government issued. Utility bills from PSNH do not count and the gun shop specifically asked for utility bills.

The licensee
must record on the Form 4473 the type of identification document(s) presented
by the transferee, including any document number. Examples of documents that
may be accepted to supplement information on a driver's license or other identification
document include a vehicle registration, a recreation identification card, a
fishing or hunting license, a voter identification card, or a tax bill. However,
the document in question must be valid and must have been issued by a government
agency.

He has no government issued paperwork with his current residence since he never changed his registration (or anything else for that matter). NH does not require that you get new registration when you move.

 

[cekim]

The licensee
must record on the Form 4473 the type of identification document(s) presented
by the transferee, including any document number. Examples of documents that
may be accepted to supplement information on a driver's license or other identification
document include a vehicle registration, a recreation identification card, a
fishing or hunting license, a voter identification card, or a tax bill. However,
the document in question must be valid and must have been issued by a government
agency.

According to the ATF ruling you linked, a law is still being broken as the secondary document that verifies residence must be government issued. Utility bills from PSNH do not count and the gun shop specifically asked for utility bills.

You missed a spot - can't comment on what the LAWR would do, but I can tell you what the ATF FAQs and agents say and photo-ID plus proof of residency with document alternate form of proof is included.

utility bill has long been referenced. It was offered as an example - though you had to provide 3 of them to satisfy this requirement:

See this from 2002 - pre court ruling that invalidated their Resident Alien requirement:
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2002-12.pdf
and here:
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-15.pdf
and here:
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulemakings/treasury-decisions/td-389.html

Everyone may be doing it wrong, but it seems that EVEYRONE is doing it wrong.

For better or for worse, MA avoids this issue because of stringent licensing requirements and restrictions on dealers.

 

[soloman02]

You missed a spot - can't comment on what the LAWR would do, but I can tell you what the ATF FAQs and agents say and photo-ID plus proof of residency with document alternate form of proof is included.

utility bill has long been referenced. Even back in the day when resident aliens had to show 90 days residency, it was offered as an example - though you had to provide 3 of them to satisfy this requirement:

See this from 2002 - pre court ruling that invalidated their Resident Alien requirement:
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2002-12.pdf
and here:
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-15.pdf
and here:
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulemakings/treasury-decisions/td-389.html

Why must everything be so ****ing complicated? At least he is getting a hefty discount to jump through these hoops.

 

[cekim]

Why must everything be so ****ing complicated? At least he is getting a hefty discount to jump through these hoops.

That, detective, is the right question...

 

[soam]

What address should Matt Foley, Motivational Speaker put on his 4473?

Van Down by the River?
His license plate number?
His van's VIN?

These are IMPORTANT QUESTIONS!

 

[drgrant]

Why must everything be so ****ing complicated? At least he is getting a hefty discount to jump through these hoops.

It's not that complicated, the problem could have been avoided by either:

A- someone not talking too much
or
B- getting their stuff straightened out and then buying

He put himself in this position by not knowing how to fight through paper bags.

-Mike

 

[cekim]

What address should Matt Foley, Motivational Speaker put on his 4473?

Van Down by the River?
His license plate number?
His van's VIN?

These are IMPORTANT QUESTIONS!

Easy: 27 8x10 glossy photos of the tire impressions by the water...

 

[Kevin_NH]

What address should Matt Foley, Motivational Speaker put on his 4473? Van Down by the River? His license plate number? His van's VIN? These are IMPORTANT QUESTIONS!

And the ATF has answers. Matt Foley can put "Van down by the river" as his residence address, assuming that's the same as he used to for driver's license.

Mr. Foley might be required to append a hand-drawn map to his 4473, showing how to get from the nearest post office to his van down by the river.

 

[cekim]

And the ATF has answers. Matt Foley can put "Van down by the river" as his residence address, assuming that's the same as he used to for driver's license.

Mr. Foley might be required to append a hand-drawn map to his 4473, showing how to get from the nearest post office to his van down by the river.

What did I tell you? 27 8x10 glossy's

 

[Len-2A Training]

Easy: 27 8x10 glossy photos of the tire impressions by the water...

With a paragraph on the back of each one!

 

[soam]

Ask a silly question, get serious and informative answers! Thanks Kevin_NH.

 

[cekim]

Ask a silly question, get serious and informative answers! Thanks Kevin_NH.

Well, it took 230 years, but we finally set a new bar for concisely and accurately describing government...

The Constitution and Bill of Rights described it as an inherently corrupt and dangerous organ requiring strict, explicit and draconian limitations to its scope and power.

2013: "Government: A serious answer to a silly question" -mlaboss

 

[Kevin_NH]

Only works because I'm no government employee -- I'm a private contractor, all my customers took today off.

 

[cekim]

Only works because I'm no government employee -- I'm a private contractor, all my customers took today off.

Good point, the absence of government presence allowed the free market to flourish and solve problems...

Of course that solution involved links to their website, but to be fair we were only describing their polices to begin with...