.45 clays issues

nstassel

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I've been struggling to work up a uspsa load with Clays. I have some 230 plated and coated bullets from Xtreme and Ibejiheads. I need 717 fps to make power. The load data says max of 4 grains. Now I am loading a bit long for my two 1911s, 1.27 rather than the specified 1.2. But even at 4.1 grains I'm only hitting 700 fps. Factory data suggests at 4 grains i should be at 793. Could being .07 over the spec length reduce pressure that much to affect velocity? 20210530_194743.jpgScreenshot_20210530-194525_Chrome.jpgCLAYS_1LB.jpg Pics for interest.
 
Check the barrel length they list for that data. Many times they list a ridiculously long barrel length which messes with your numbers.
 
Flat base or hollow base bullets? .07 is a good amount of added volume , so yes, I can see that being the issue.

I'd make a few more with 4.5 gr and see what that yields.
 
Flat base or hollow base bullets? .07 is a good amount of added volume , so yes, I can see that being the issue.

I'd make a few more with 4.5 gr and see what that yields.
I'm afraid to go that high over maximum recommended load data. Maybe I'll reduce oal and check.
 
this. I’m not sure if 50wt was serious?

As an example of what a difference the seating depth can make, a couple of years ago I bought some Remington 9mm 115gr fmj on sale (the green and white box stuff). Shot some and it was underpowered and not great for accuracy either. I decided to try re-seating a box of them slightly deeper to try to get some better performance before just selling off the whole lot. I don't remember how much deeper I seated them, maybe .01, and it made them more like typical 115gr factory loads. Cycled better and accuracy was better too.
 
Lyman manual only had 225 gr lead data
Interesting they used federal brass with clays. Must have a larger volume maybe??
01D58A9C-2502-4585-987C-DF62F4CD40EA.jpeg
 
this. I’m not sure if 50wt was serious?

He chose his OAL length for a reason, so why mess with that ? I'd add 10% more powder long before reducing case capacity by .07 .

NStassel - Can you measure from the top of the case to the top of the powder charge and let us know what it is ?


** a quick search on the net and a member on The High Road said at 3.9gr, he was also getting low 700's fps.
 
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He chose his OAL length for a reason, so why mess with that ? I'd add 10% more powder long before reducing case capacity by .07 .

NStassel - Can you measure from the top of the case to the top of the powder charge and let us know what it is ?
They're only about half filled. I can get more exact if necessary. What are you thinking? My OAL was not very scientific. I did a push test in a barrel and reduced for some jump. That length worked so I kept it.
 
1.27 is long for 45, but it was a number you came up with so I didn't question it. I dont have any scientific data to add, but I suggested adding .4gr more powder because reducing case capacity by .07 could be far more significant .
 
Part of the problem of OAL is what you are actually trying to control is effective case volume remaining once the bullet is seated - calculating seating depth from the load data and replicating that for your bullet is a much better way to set OAL on a bullet with a different nose profile but the same weight.
 
Clays is more for bullseye loads.
Doesn't really burn right to get power factor loads. Its is workable, just not ideal.

A quick search over at another forum kinda leads to the same result- Really soft shooting, but tough to get p.f. with.

Try poking around here, you might find what you need

 
I have shot a ton of 45 with Clays. Mostly loaded on the press I sold you...
The data is weird from source to source because the formula has changed several times over the years. Clays is a powder that you will want develop a load specific to the batch of powder... as in when you open a new jug, start over again with you load development. Clays is also inverse temperature sensitive, a given load will be faster on a cold day than on a hot humid day. The same batch of ammo (primers powder and bullets) made 179pf at Nationals on a cool spring day, then barely made 165pf at an A7match on a hot day in September.

anyway here is my data (It will take more powder to reach PF with the plated bullets. )
ETA: I would recommend you set your OAL to 1.21 and work up again
1622488781805.png
 
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Check the barrel length they list for that data. Many times they list a ridiculously long barrel length which messes with your numbers.
FWIW unless the manufacture is testing specific barrels/barrtel lengths IIRC SAMMI standards velocity is run through 24" barrels ?

That said I use a lot of clays also. I seldom get close to max loads with clays. I run a lee TL230gn RN cast with straight wheel weights
Lee bullet , 3.5g clays , COAL 1.25" gets me right in that 750fps range out of my 5" SW 1911.... I dont like how "punchy" clays get at 4.0 grains and if I run it through quick loads its probably getting very close to max chamber pressure.
I have been running the same load for years.

Funny theres not a lot of Clays data for the Heavy cast bullets that I have seen . My 180 gn cast SWC cast load is really fun with clays.

Also as noted Clays is definitely temp sensitive. I notice that more with shotshell loads.
 
FWIW unless the manufacture is testing specific barrels/barrtel lengths IIRC SAMMI standards velocity is run through 24" barrels ?

That said I use a lot of clays also. I seldom get close to max loads with clays. I run a lee TL230gn RN cast with straight wheel weights
Lee bullet , 3.5g clays , COAL 1.25" gets me right in that 750fps range out of my 5" SW 1911.... I dont like how "punchy" clays get at 4.0 grains and if I run it through quick loads its probably getting very close to max chamber pressure.
I have been running the same load for years.

Funny theres not a lot of Clays data for the Heavy cast bullets that I have seen . My 180 gn cast SWC cast load is really fun with clays.

Also as noted Clays is definitely temp sensitive. I notice that more with shotshell loads.
That's ridiculous that i can't get close to that with 4 grains. I'm shutting this down. I think this powder is goofy.

Btw these rounds at 1.21 look like they just got out of the pool. That's the shorter one on the right.20210531_111808.jpg
 
1.27 is long for 45, but it was a number you came up with so I didn't question it. I dont have any scientific data to add, but I suggested adding .4gr more powder because reducing case capacity by .07 could be far more significant .


Lol, no it's not. Shit when I loaded LRNs I loaded them at like 1.230 most jacketed/plated FMJs were at 1.250
 
That's ridiculous that i can't get close to that with 4 grains. I'm shutting this down. I think this powder is goofy.

Btw these rounds at 1.21 look like they just got out of the pool. That's the shorter one on the right.View attachment 488056
The powder could be a bit off.
any chance your crimping them so much your reducing the bullet size and getting a poor seal?
Does the bullet manufacture offer any load data?
 
Part of the reason a lot of 230rnl OALs are short is because a lot of the bullet moulds that make 230s are more "dome" shaped than an FMJ 230 is. They feed like shit unless you seat them deep like that. Lee had another one that was less gay than their standard 230 and you could actually load it like an FMJ almost.

Buy a few pounds of WST and load it to max. There you go. Mouse farts that don't foul the gun and still probably make PF. You might be able to back off a few tenths and still make PF.
 
I have shot a ton of 45 with Clays. Mostly loaded on the press I sold you...
The data is weird from source to source because the formula has changed several times over the years. Clays is a powder that you will want develop a load specific to the batch of powder... as in when you open a new jug, start over again with you load development. Clays is also inverse temperature sensitive, a given load will be faster on a cold day than on a hot humid day. The same batch of ammo (primers powder and bullets) made 179pf at Nationals on a cool spring day, then barely made 165pf at an A7match on a hot day in September.

anyway here is my data (It will take more powder to reach PF with the plated bullets. )
ETA: I would recommend you set your OAL to 1.21 and work up again
View attachment 488027
Damn. Kind of a pain in the ass powder in 45 it seems no?
 
Damn. Kind of a pain in the ass powder in 45 it seems no?
eh not really its just a short window. I run 3.5 gn for a target load. Clays is one of those powders that just gets to higher chamber pressure quickly.
When i got to 4gns I did not like how it felt , went from smooth push to a snap. There are better powders for getting velocity up and chamber pressures lower.
 
WST has the same reverse temperature sensitivity issues. I shot a hot Area 7 at Harvard a few years back with Scrivener. He shot Open Minor with his Limited Major gun with WST.
So if its hot, it gets weaker?

I shot pins for 2 yrs with that stuff, was basically tickling 800ish fps with 230gr fmj out of a 5.5in bbl with winchesters max online data. Soft recoiling even at max. I forgot what the charge weight was though. It was my light load before the pins got heavy. Then i would switch back to my 6.5 and 7gr power pistol loads when things got hairy. The 7s were pushing 900+ fps. 😀
 
So if its hot, it gets weaker?

Yes. WST, WSF, and Solo1000 are a few that I am aware of that are reverse temperature sensitive. HP-38/W231 is known to be (regular) temperature sensitive (goes faster when it's hotter).

SJan I knew that Solo1000 had to be reworked based on lot. I didn't know WST varied that much. I'm still working on the same 4lb jug I bought 10 years ago ;-)
 
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