4th circuit rules banning handgun sales to 18/20 YO unconstitutional

Boghog1

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Qwikdraw45

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yep, was driving to VT to get drunk then driving an hour home over twisty back roads, so much safer than hitting the local bar and walking home
Ironic. My wife and her friends used to drive to NY to drink since the age limit was 18. And then her friend drove them home drunk. When I turned 18, the limit in VT was 18. The supposedly lowered it since so many were driving to Canada and then driving home drunk.
 

Buck F

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"Judge James Wynn Jr., a President Barack Obama appointee, wrote a dissent that said the panel had overstepped its role as a court, and that “the majority’s decision to grant the gun lobby a victory in a fight it lost on Capitol Hill more than 50 years ago is not compelled by law.” "

I still can't believe a sitting Appellate Judge said that in the dissent.
 

CrackPot

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yep, was driving to VT to get drunk then driving an hour home over twisty back roads, so much safer than hitting the local bar and walking home
VT was the place to go when I was 18-20. CT and MA were just out of reach for age (though we all knew places in both states you could still go). VT stayed 18 until 1986 and at that point it no longer mattered for me
 

KBCraig

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Good decision!!!!


You can buy a house, a car, land, own a business, take out an insurance policy, serve in the military ( 17yoa with parental concent), legally marry, all at age 18......

.......but you can't enjoy an alcoholic beverage even in the privacy of your own home, or buy/possess a handgun to protect yourself while in it.

Handgun purchase age and drinking age have to go. Let the chips fall where they may. Stupid people will either smarten up or die.

Ironically in New Jersey I believe minors are allowed to drink at home provided someone 21+ buys them the alcohol, but the downside is you have to be in New Jersey.

Also many states have raised tobacco age to 21, wrong direction.

Reagan strong-armed the 21 national drinking age, and Drumph imposed the 21 year national tobacco age.

Authoritarians are the enemy of individual liberty, no matter what letter follows their name.
 

crispnipz

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Reagan strong-armed the 21 national drinking age, and Drumph imposed the 21 year national tobacco age.
I am sympathetic to the thought process behind what Trump did because of his personal hatred for addiction (due to his brother dying from alcoholism). But I agree with you that what he did there was disappointing and a sobering (pun intended) reminder that no politician is perfect. In a similar vein, many on the political right idealize Reagan despite some terrible policies that were introduced or allowed by him.

Authoritarians are the enemy of individual liberty, no matter what letter follows their name.
I fear I'll get flak for saying this, but I think that it is sometimes appropriate and necessary to restrict individual liberty. Obviously 2A is outside the scope of this. I believe the deterioration of the United States (and broadly, the western world) has been due, in part, to individual liberty run amok. Another (perhaps cliche) way of articulating that would be rights without responsibilities. People want the right to do what the please without the responsibility that necessarily accompanies those rights.

Of course, and perhaps by design, when we are given glimpses of authoritarianism, it is very frequently the "wrong" kind. Stopping 18 year olds from owning handguns or smoking cigarettes while the prevailing demographic makeup of the US is destroyed through a decades-long invasion presented as a humanitarian crisis. Or forcing people to wear masks inside grocery stores while wealth is transferred further away from the bottom and middle to the very top. That sort of bullshit.
 

bigben111435

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I


I fear I'll get flak for saying this, but I think that it is sometimes appropriate and necessary to restrict individual liberty. Obviously 2A is outside the scope of this. I believe the deterioration of the United States (and broadly, the western world) has been due, in part, to individual liberty run amok. Another (perhaps cliche) way of articulating that would be rights without responsibilities. People want the right to do what the please without the responsibility that necessarily accompanies those rights.

.

So obviously your definition of individual liberty is different from the vernacular.
 

Rob Boudrie

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If 18 becomes the universal age of majority will juveniles convicted of murder who are now kept on ice until age 21 be released at age 18?
 

OnTheRoad

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Simple, alcohol is not a constitutional right and therefore laws can be passed about age restrictions by fed and/or state.

Eighteenth Amendment​


After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited.

Twenty-First Amendment​


The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.
 

crispnipz

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So not liberty at all. Liberty is all-but defined by the counterbalance of right and responsibility.
So obviously your definition of individual liberty is different from the vernacular.
I think you both misunderstand. I don't disagree, but if you ask the average person how they define individual liberty, the response would probably not include anything about responsibility.
 

Mesatchornug

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I think you both misunderstand. I don't disagree, but if you ask the average person how they define individual liberty, the response would probably not include anything about responsibility.
how the average person imagines liberty doesn't matter. If you ask a child what they want for dinner they'll tell you ice cream. That doesn't mean they understand what they're talking about.
 

Rob Boudrie

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Eighteenth Amendment​


After one year from the ratification of this article the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within, the importation thereof into, or the exportation thereof from the United States and all territory subject to the jurisdiction thereof for beverage purposes is hereby prohibited.

Twenty-First Amendment​


The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.
The passage of the 18th shows that congress thought it was a constitutional right, otherwise, it would not have required an amendment but just a federal law.

Similarly, the $200 machine gun tax exists because congress wanted to ban them but knew doing so would violate the 2A to it settled on a then prohibitive tax.
 

Parker Schreiber

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The passage of the 18th shows that congress thought it was a constitutional right, otherwise, it would not have required an amendment but just a federal law.

Congress thought that under the Constitution, regulation of alcohol fell into the traditional police powers of "health, welfare, safety, and morals." At that time, court decisions supported the Constitution granted the states power to legislate in those areas. So while it was a constitutional right, it belonged to the states, not individuals.
 

MaverickNH

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ScottS

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This author disproves his argument without even realizing it. Why, i states when firearms can be purchased and possessed by persons under 21, would firearms suicide remain elevated between ages 21 and 40? Are more people buying guns between ages 18-21 intending suicide decades later? No, it’s not the guns.

View attachment 502895
"The first time I fired a gun, my dad placed a pillow on my skinny shoulder to cushion the kick and held me firmly from behind."

Smaller Graph.JPG
 

Rob Boudrie

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This author disproves his argument without even realizing it. Why, i states when firearms can be purchased and possessed by persons under 21, would firearms suicide remain elevated between ages 21 and 40? Are more people buying guns between ages 18-21 intending suicide decades later? No, it’s not the guns.

View attachment 502895
This is like the "witches are made of wood; wood floats; she floats; therefore she is made of wood and therefore a witch".

Even if accurate, any data from an advocacy group is suspect as it is likely cherry picked out of data that could conflict with the opinion it is trying to manipulate. Giffords Center? WTF?
 

KBCraig

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"The first time I fired a gun, my dad placed a pillow on my skinny shoulder to cushion the kick and held me firmly from behind."

View attachment 502904
I suspect he's conflating his first experience with Daddy's "gun", with being held firmly from behind while biting the pillow.
 

Crotchrocket

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In MA when they ruled stun guns to be protected by 2nd amendment they took a year to figure out how to be as restrictive as possible.

If this did apply to MA I’m sure you’d still need an LTC and being a may issue state they would not issue any LTC to 18-21 year olds. There’s another case before the Supreme court though that could disallow that type of rights infringement as well. Forcing all states to be shall issue instead of may issue.
 

Glockster30

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yep, was driving to VT to get drunk then driving an hour home over twisty back roads, so much safer than hitting the local bar and walking home

Been there, done that, except I didn't make it home. I woke up on a bench in the library of Plattsburgh State University (I think). The last thing I remembered was being in a car on the ferry going from Burlington to Plattsburgh, NY, but I don't recall getting on the ferry.
 
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Which gives authority to regulate alcohol to the states.

You realize that the constitution does not list all right correct? It explicitly states anything not listed is reserved to the people or the states. So it not being listed as a right, doesn't mean it isn't a right.
 

ScottS

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You realize that the constitution does not list all right correct? It explicitly states anything not listed is reserved to the people or the states. So it not being listed as a right, doesn't mean it isn't a right.
You seem to be conflating the 9th and 10th Amendments.

The 10th states the powers--not rights--not delegated to the United States by the Constitution are reserved to the States or to the people.

The 9th Amendment, the one you might be thinking of, basically say, "Hey, this ain't all of them. Just because I didn't list a right doesn't mean it doesn't exist."

That's paraphrased.
 
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