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77 Grain Match King Loads

RImike

RImike

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I've been working on some .223 77 Grain HPBT Match Kings (no cannurl) with 22.5 grains of Varget. I am reloading into headstamp sorted LC brass. I am running this with a 20" .223 Wylde chambered AR.

I have a question about velocity, specifically it seams rather low with a 10 shot average at 2580 FPS and a deviation of less than 30.

Accuracy is ok, though it could better with better glass. I'm shooting about a 1.5" group @200 yards.

If I charge more powder, the accuracy degrades significantly with random fliers.

Considering my range maxes out to 200 yards, this is all I have to get out of it and thus I see no reason to push more powder. I am asking if others with similar loads experience the relative same velocity.
 
You are sending them to slow, I know you said when you add powder the group opens up, just keep going they will begin to close back up again. I am confident that somewhere between 24gr and 25gr will be the sweet spot, as always check for pressure signs, but I don't even think you will begin to even remotely see any.

Dean
 
Just out of curiosity, why are you concerned with velocity? 2,500 fps is plenty to keep the bullet supersonic out to 600 yards, so unless you're trying to burn your barrel or win a velocity contest, why do you care?

I assume this isn't a hunting round, considering the bullet choice.


If it were me, I'd weigh each load by hand to make sure they were as uniform as possible, and make a bunch of loads at 22.2, 22.3 22.4, 22.5, 22.6, 22.7, and 23.8gr and see which grouped best, then stick with it.
 
Dean Crawford said:
You are sending them to slow, I know you said when you add powder the group opens up, just keep going they will begin to close back up again. I am confident that somewhere between 24gr and 25gr will be the sweet spot, as always check for pressure signs, but I don't even think you will begin to even remotely see any.

Dean
Click to expand...

I believe I am already compressing as I hear a slight crunch the last 100th or so when I seat them. When I go up to 23.5 the crunch is almost the enter seat length. Hodgdon also recomends a max load of 23.7

milktree said:
Just out of curiosity, why are you concerned with velocity? 2,500 fps is plenty to keep the bullet supersonic out to 600 yards, so unless you're trying to burn your barrel or win a velocity contest, why do you care?

I assume this isn't a hunting round, considering the bullet choice.

All things considered, In my opinion I feel as if I'm just wasting money for that extra grain to get really noting out of it. I can't think of anything else which accounts for the relatively low velocity.
If it were me, I'd weigh each load by hand to make sure they were as uniform as possible, and make a bunch of loads at 22.2, 22.3 22.4, 22.5, 22.6, 22.7, and 23.8gr and see which grouped best, then stick with it.
Click to expand...

I'm not really concerned as rather seeking a consensus of what others experience. Also considering my velocity of 2,580 fps is very close to the starting load of 21.0 Grains. I've also weighted individual loads and they are usually off no more than a few hundredths. Sometimes a 10th if it's really humid.
 
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I had a Windham VEX with a 20" barrel, Compass Lake chamber. The CL chamber should be for all practical purposes same as a Wylde chamber. I haven't shot the 77 SMK's but did have my best results with Nosler 77 Match. I found the Noslers to be more consistent in dimension than the SMK's. 77 gr bullets will have the same starting loads for a given powder, but your final load for best accuracy could be different for the SMK's vs. the Noslers.

Here's my best load:
Nosler 77 gr Match
22.6 gr Benchmark Powder
Norma brass- no trimming necessary so far. Was able to get one or two reloads with only neck sizing. I checked all brass with a case gauge. If it easily passed, neck size only. Keep in mind this must be for the same rifle only.
CCI BR primers
2.267" OAL

This load consistently shot below 0.5 MOA at 100 yards. If over, it was because I shanked the shot. Best group was ~.22", and average group size was ~.31". I also tried Varget with the Nosler 77's (between 21.0 and 23.7 gr) and Varget with 69 gr SMK's (between 24.0 and 26.0 gr). I had no trouble getting the Varget below 1 MOA with both bullets.

Even when trickling to final weight, I have determined that Benchmark meters much better than Varget. It's generally easier to work with, given the small size of .223's. In my case, it was consistently more accurate than Varget. I do use Varget in my Garand and '03 National Match.

Probably someone with more experience and better skills will disagree with me, but I am not a fan of LC brass for anything but plinking or self defense. Too inconsistent for accuracy shooting- necks are not concentric. For reasonably priced brass, I have found Winchester to be pretty good. If you want something good right out of the box that is very durable, Norma and Lapua brass are the balls.

I traded the VEX, but have built a highpower rifle with a 20" Krieger barrel. Once again I have the Compass Lake chamber. If I do my best, it will shoot ~1 MOA at 100 yards with iron sights. In the next few weeks I plan to mount a good scope and try to develop a sub .5 MOA load. Range report and target pics will follow.
 
RImike said:
I'm not really concerned as rather seeking a consensus of what others experience. Also considering my velocity of 2,580 fps is very close to the starting load of 21.0 Grains. I've also weighted individual loads and they are usually off no more than a few hundredths. Sometimes a 10th if it's really humid.
Click to expand...

How are you measuring .01 grains? My balance scale (505) I thought was only good to .05 grains. Maybe I need to look at it again.
 
try the optimum charge weight system

optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com

Took me a while to warm up to this system... basically skills,loads and equipment improved enough to see its potential.

Any how 24 grains of varget dropped from my horndy powder measure with Sierra or Nosler 77 was giving me 1moa with a handful of 5 shot groups just under moa out of my RRA NM A4 with a 2.5x8 VXIII ....I forget the velocity but I don't think it was much more than 2600fps?

I have the shooting c
 
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Mountain said:
I had a Windham VEX with a 20" barrel, Compass Lake chamber. The CL chamber should be for all practical purposes same as a Wylde chamber. I haven't shot the 77 SMK's but did have my best results with Nosler 77 Match. I found the Noslers to be more consistent in dimension than the SMK's. 77 gr bullets will have the same starting loads for a given powder, but your final load for best accuracy could be different for the SMK's vs. the Noslers.

Here's my best load:
Nosler 77 gr Match
22.6 gr Benchmark Powder
Norma brass- no trimming necessary so far. Was able to get one or two reloads with only neck sizing. I checked all brass with a case gauge. If it easily passed, neck size only. Keep in mind this must be for the same rifle only.
CCI BR primers
2.267" OAL

This load consistently shot below 0.5 MOA at 100 yards. If over, it was because I shanked the shot. Best group was ~.22", and average group size was ~.31". I also tried Varget with the Nosler 77's (between 21.0 and 23.7 gr) and Varget with 69 gr SMK's (between 24.0 and 26.0 gr). I had no trouble getting the Varget below 1 MOA with both bullets.

Even when trickling to final weight, I have determined that Benchmark meters much better than Varget. It's generally easier to work with, given the small size of .223's. In my case, it was consistently more accurate than Varget. I do use Varget in my Garand and '03 National Match.

Probably someone with more experience and better skills will disagree with me, but I am not a fan of LC brass for anything but plinking or self defense. Too inconsistent for accuracy shooting- necks are not concentric. For reasonably priced brass, I have found Winchester to be pretty good. If you want something good right out of the box that is very durable, Norma and Lapua brass are the balls.

I traded the VEX, but have built a highpower rifle with a 20" Krieger barrel. Once again I have the Compass Lake chamber. If I do my best, it will shoot ~1 MOA at 100 yards with iron sights. In the next few weeks I plan to mount a good scope and try to develop a sub .5 MOA load. Range report and target pics will follow.
Click to expand...

Do remember what your velocity was? Regarding the Varget, i've been thinking about getting away from it and move over to Benchmark.
 
RImike said:
I believe I am already compressing as I hear a slight crunch the last 100th or so when I seat them. When I go up to 23.5 the crunch is almost the enter seat length. Hodgdon also recomends a max load of 23.7
Click to expand...

If you get yourself some kind of small vibrating object, I've seen electric toothbrushes used, or even a marital aid, then gently hit the bottom of the case you put the powder in, before you seat bullet obviously. It will settle the powder and give you a bit more room. Will it be enough to sit the 77's w/o any crunch? I dunno, but although compressed loads are no big deal, some suspect the crunch of offsetting the bullet. If nothing else, it will certainly lessen the crunch. I have gone from crunch to no crunch doing this with varget and heavy loaded 69gr smks.
 
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RImike said:
Do remember what your velocity was? Regarding the Varget, i've been thinking about getting away from it and move over to Benchmark.
Click to expand...

No chrono data. I generally don't use a chrono and let the targets be my guide, within safe limits of course.
 
RImike said:
I wasn't using the 505, thats how.
Click to expand...


OK, what scale are you using? A quick look on the interweb says that a 0.01 grain precision scale is a $2,500 item.

My digital scale is only precise to 0.1 grain.

The 505 only has marks for 0.1 grain, but you can make a pretty good guess for about half that when the needle is above or below the mark.
 
Just a note.... Nosler load data has their accurate load of Varget at 22 grains 2454 fps from a 1/7 20" barrel ?
 
24 grains of Varget under the 77 SMK is a very common load among service rifle shooters.
 
Because it's what I grabbed, Lyman 48th Reloading Manual says Varget 22.5 @ 2460FPS-25.0 grains @2705 FPS shot in a 20" barrel. The idea of weighing loaded rounds is silly at best and I sincerely doubt hundreths difference unless cherry-picked prior on a lab grade scale and the same for each of the additional components. There is a huge difference between accuracy and resolution.
 
Steve Marshall said:
Because it's what I grabbed, Lyman 48th Reloading Manual says Varget 22.5 @ 2460FPS-25.0 grains @2705 FPS shot in a 20" barrel. The idea of weighing loaded rounds is silly at best and I sincerely doubt hundreths difference unless cherry-picked prior on a lab grade scale and the same for each of the additional components. There is a huge difference between accuracy and resolution.
Click to expand...

If you Google Sierra AR15 Load data there is a PDF file with those pages. Try there.
I went with 24 grains of Varget as it works well with all my AR bullet choices.... once I take my rifle out of the rest I'm a 3moa shooter so I don't get to hung up on velocity or powder charges.
 
24. Personally, I wouldn't go above that unless you moly coat the bullets. Or, if you do, make sure you've got a hard primer and don't make up 200 of them before you test it.
 
When my father was a live, he was an electrical engineer and had access to all sorts of lab equipment. One weekend, for our own intrigue we did a very scientific approach to ensure consistency for 50 rounds. We did everything from measuring case volume to precisely measuring the powder weight to even put the bullets in a lathe to ensure they were true. The end of the day, it didn't matter a squat. We got nearly the same results out of a 505 loaded, RCBS powder measure and randomly picked rounds fresh out of the box. The only difference was the velocity was consistent, the accuracy not so much but that came down to me.

I'm thinking with my current results they are on par. I don't have much to gain by adding another 1.5 grains as my current max range is 200 yards. If I join a range with more potential then I will re-evaluate then.
 
So even after that weekend's failure to qualify case capacity et al. you still weighed loaded rounds averring the variation was less than 1/10th of a grain on loaded rounds? DO NOT take the advice generally given here to increase charge weight as you already know that won't change a thing and certainly your rounds are good enough to go 200 yards. Think of all the money saved due to less powder being used.
 
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Steve Marshall said:
So even after that weekend's failure to qualify case capacity et al. you still weighed loaded rounds averring the variation was less than 1/10th of a grain on loaded rounds? DO NOT take the advice generally given here to increase charge weight as you already know that won't change a thing and certainly your rounds are good enough to go 200 yards. Think of all the money saved due to less powder being used.
Click to expand...

Your last sentence is my point, every 15 rounds is a "bonus" round if I don't increase the charge.

My intention of the thread is to see what if other's with similar load data achieve the same results.

The one thing I've really been wanting to do is put my chrono at the target and see what the actual terminal velocity is compared to calculated velocity from ballistics data.
 
RImike said:
Your last sentence is my point, every 15 rounds is a "bonus" round if I don't increase the charge.

My intention of the thread is to see what if other's with similar load data achieve the same results.

The one thing I've really been wanting to do is put my chrono at the target and see what the actual terminal velocity is compared to calculated velocity from ballistics data.
Click to expand...
the crony can have a mind of its own also my shooting crony varies with the light....
 
mac1911 said:
the crony can have a mind of its own also my shooting crony varies with the light....
Click to expand...

This. After Eddie Coyle brought this up to me a few years ago I did some testing. Now I only use the crony for comparing different loads shot on the same range session.
 
Well then. Be prepared for the following. Departure angle to the chronograph will subtly affect velocity. Given that you weigh rounds to .01 grains, certainly you must factor that in. Sierra's reported B.C. might also be affected by many variables including how they calculate. Your chronograph more than likely offers some guaranteed accuracy under optimal conditions e.g. light and if the distance between the screens is accurate and parallel. Even my ancient Oehler 33 only guaranteed 1% accuracy.
 
If you think a light load is good enough, take it a step further then. Drop it to 15 grains. The bullet will get to 200 yards.


That is my A-hole way of saying that heavy bullets like to be pushed. Hard.
But what do I know.
 
RImike said:
I've been working on some .223 77 Grain HPBT Match Kings (no cannurl) with 22.5 grains of Varget. I am reloading into headstamp sorted LC brass. I am running this with a 20" .223 Wylde chambered AR.

I have a question about velocity, specifically it seams rather low with a 10 shot average at 2580 FPS and a deviation of less than 30.

Accuracy is ok, though it could better with better glass. I'm shooting about a 1.5" group @200 yards.

If I charge more powder, the accuracy degrades significantly with random fliers.

Considering my range maxes out to 200 yards, this is all I have to get out of it and thus I see no reason to push more powder. I am asking if others with similar loads experience the relative same velocity.
Click to expand...

Velocity seems in the ballpark with your load which is slow, which is out of the sweet-spot for what I've found with many service rifle barrels with 6.5-1.8 twists. My go to weight is 23.8-24.0 grains Varget, performs well to 300 yards (we use 80's for 600), but I realize that your just shooting 200.

The above is out of Rock River and WOA barrels with the Wilde chamber. They don't even care when I seat them down to 2.240. One of my barrels, a 6.5 twist Kreiger with 7000 rounds was still a tack driver at 200 with the 77's and 23.8 Varget. With throat wear it was jumping half a mile with that many down the tube.
 

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