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9 mm effectiveness ?

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nordic alien

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even though i own 3 of them: glock 26: because it conceals well and takes hi-cap mags. brownig hi- power and s&w model 39 for they are classics. i tend to shy away from the nines and go for 40 cal or up for carry. do not no much about the loads available; which is considered the most effective and powerful for self defense; that is penetration and stopping power
 
Packing a 9 millie means your loaded for bear!

The three main calibers are pretty close these days performance wise. I don’t buy into the 9mm is the be all end all round, real men shoot 45s and 40 short and wimpy should just go away. I carry all three and am confident in doing so. Like all guns pick the ammo that it likes the best. Just cuz it’s a 40 doesn’t mean one has to run 180 grainers. My G23 likes 155s.
That said I like winchester ranger t series for protection ammo in 9 and 40 (haven’t come across it in 45) and Federal for 45. Many like Gold Dot for 9mm. Most good HPs are gonna perform similar so buy a couple types and see what groups the best in your carry piece.
 
I think it's chapter 131, section 67 of MA hunting laws (if you are in MA):
A person shall not use or possess, where birds or mammals may be found, any rifle chambered to take larger than twenty-two long rifle ammunition, or any revolver or pistol chambered to take larger than thirty-eight caliber ammunition between the hours of one half hour after sunset to one half hour before sunrise of any day throughout the year.
Click to expand...
So, If you're carrying all the time, and out and about, as soon as the sun sets you are pretty much "illegal" if you are carrying anything larger than a .38 (9mm). Granted.... how do they define anything larger than a .38 calibler. Birds or mammals are found pretty much everywhere.
 
nordic alien said:
even though i own 3 of them: glock 26: because it conceals well and takes hi-cap mags. brownig hi- power and s&w model 39 for they are classics. i tend to shy away from the nines and go for 40 cal or up for carry. do not no much about the loads available; which is considered the most effective and powerful for self defense; that is penetration and stopping power
Click to expand...
I suggest doing some research before asking this because there's zero rationale behind what you wrote. There are thousands of articles and threads covering these topics.
 
teaser452 said:
That said, it is the opinion of 99% of the board that .40 sucks. And it’s true.
Click to expand...
a better interpretation of this statement is the top 10 .40 bullies are of that opinion, shout down the others and the rest of the lemmings follow suit. a 180 gr .40 doing ~ 1150 - 1250 fps with somewhere north of 450 lbs of energy is nothing i want to be in front of. hp's seem to expand quite nicely also.
northframingham said:
Most agencies are dropping the 40 and going back to 9mm.
Click to expand...
i don't keep up with this type of stuff but this information came from where? the little i know here is most departments chase the contract that fits their budget at the time.

i'm not defending the .40 or condemning it, i just don't like the blanket statements of "it sucks" when people jump on the bandwagon without the correct change.
 
The Reasons Why FBI Went to Back to 9mm | The Loadout Room

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-polic...now-everyone-seems-to-be-changing-back-to-9mm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...afd1d3eb896_story.html?utm_term=.51f5d8fe4d23

If You Have Not Yet, You Should Be Switching to the 9mm - Cheaper Than Dirt

4 important factors in the 9mm pistol debate

1) Cost effective (9mm is significantly less expensive than .40S&W or .45acp (Bonus = when ammo costs less, many can afford to practice more)
2) Second shot placement. In numerous tests the 9mm have more accurate and quicker second shot placement. (most likely due to recoil)
3) Higher capacity (9mm magazines hold more rounds than .40S&W & .45acp)
4) Ammunition is engineered better today (far better than in the past) Most 9mm CARRY ammo with penetrate barriers and have the same depth penetration as .40S&W's
 
I've been shooting alot in ballistic gel lately with Mike Spangler and the results on some 9s are impressive the 40s that we tested weren't that great. The Winchester Ranger T 45acp 230gr. +p was insane with the projectile ending up over 1 inch in diameter. Maybe Mike will chime in with some pics .
 
northframingham said:
1) Cost effective (9mm is significantly less expensive than .40S&W or .45acp (Bonus = when ammo costs less, many can afford to practice more)
2) Second shot placement. In numerous tests the 9mm have more accurate and quicker second shot placement. (most likely due to recoil)
3) Higher capacity (9mm magazines hold more rounds than .40S&W & .45acp)
4) Ammunition is engineered better today (far better than in the past) Most 9mm CARRY ammo with penetrate barriers and have the same depth penetration as .40S&W's
Click to expand...
getting this out of the way, not picking a public fight. :) none of the above statements tell me the .40 sucks.
 
nordic alien said:
even though i own 3 of them: glock 26: because it conceals well and takes hi-cap mags. brownig hi- power and s&w model 39 for they are classics. i tend to shy away from the nines and go for 40 cal or up for carry. do not no much about the loads available; which is considered the most effective and powerful for self defense; that is penetration and stopping power
Click to expand...

Whatever you get lead on target with man. I've seen some people make golf balls with 1911s at speed and others do it with Glock 19s. FBI says ~200 ft/lbs on target has been enough to stop most perps. So anything .38 and above has enough power to get the job done. The big question is if you can hit shit with it under extreme stress.
 
I've always remembered EddieCoyle's thoughts on the Fotay
EddieCoyle said:
It was invented by French women so that they could have something to shoot while their husbands cooked.
Click to expand...

But seriously, shot placement trumps all. Even ignoring the lighter recoil giving a faster 2nd shot, just think how much more training you can do with 9mm because of the price difference. Lastly, modern defensive ammo is so much better than it was 10-20 years ago that the old rules of thumb about the 9mm's effectiveness don't apply.
 
Last edited:
whatluck said:
Whatever you get lead on target with man. I've seen some people make golf balls with 1911s at speed and others do it with Glock 19s. FBI says ~200 ft/lbs on target has been enough to stop most perps. So anything .38 and above has enough power to get the job done. The big question is if you can hit shit with it under extreme stress.
Click to expand...
Hinkley shot Reagan with a .22. If he wasn’t such a nut job and had spent more time practicing, shot placement would’ve made all the difference.

My 70 year old mother carries a ruger .22. She can shoot the eyeballs out of a frog and 30 feet.

Shot placement. Shot placement. Accuracy. Accuracy accuracy. And situational awareness.

But .40 still sucks because, well, that’s what they say.
 
silversquirrel said:
9mm = metric. Probably a long term sleeper commie plot of some sort. Unproven. Tiny, but cute little bullet.

.45 = bigger and 100% 'Merican, so no question, better. How is this not obvious?
Click to expand...
See! This is the type of reasoning I can get behind.

I somehow have 500 rounds of .45 but nothing in the vault that can launch them.

I blame the Russians.
 
northframingham said:
4 important factors in the 9mm pistol debate

1) Cost effective (9mm is significantly less expensive than .40S&W or .45acp (Bonus = when ammo costs less, many can afford to practice more)
2) Second shot placement. In numerous tests the 9mm have more accurate and quicker second shot placement. (most likely due to recoil)
3) Higher capacity (9mm magazines hold more rounds than .40S&W & .45acp)
4) Ammunition is engineered better today (far better than in the past) Most 9mm CARRY ammo with penetrate barriers and have the same depth penetration as .40S&W's
Click to expand...


cockpitbob said:
But seriously, shot placement trumps all. Even ignoring the lighter recoil giving a faster 2nd shot, just think how much more training you can do with 9mm because of the price difference. Lastly, modern defensive ammo is so much better than it was 10-20 years ago that the old rules of thumb about the 9mm's effectiveness don't apply.
Click to expand...

greencobra said:
getting this out of the way, not picking a public fight. :) none of the above statements tell me the .40 sucks.
Click to expand...

I never thought I would be posting this, but 40 does not suck. For all the reasons given in the first two quotes, 40 is a bit less efficient in terms of controllability, capacity, and cost. And since efficiency and economy really do matter, I strongly recommend 9mm when new shooters ask me this question. But saying that 40 "sucks" would be like saying that it can't get the job done, and that's just not true.
 
Practice more. [rofl] Police officers. [rofl][rofl] The cost is affecting them shooting enough? [rofl][rofl][rofl]

Cops went from 9mm from 38's because of peer pressure. They went to .40 because of. . . peer pressure. The ones that are moving back to 9mm are doing so b/c of. . . . peer pressure. I'm betting 5-10 years ago, with the "bigger is better" you saw an uptick in departments going .45.

This isn't a department run by Bill Jordan or Mas Ayoob or Harry Callahan. Decisions are made by bureaucrats who just want a safe decision. If everyone is going left, I'm going left. They jog right, I'll go right.
 
91D978F1-3BED-4363-BEC8-C4BE97105551.jpeg Federal HST Micro 38 Special +P fired from a S&W 642 with a 1 7/8” barrel

29FCEF0F-98F5-4087-90EE-3AF27B1D103F.jpeg 18209BF3-FFB6-42AA-8205-2893B2793BC5.jpeg A72C7E4A-AC0F-4D4C-9C58-77A76D4F5250.jpeg Winchester Ranger RA45T fired from a S&W 625 with a 5” barrel

These threads are always funny because there’s s ton of banter and nothing to back it up.

Stopping power is crap.

Incapacitation by a central nervous system hit or bleeding out is real.

Most modern ammo can reach a CNS hit but you need to do your part. Putting 17 rounds of 9mm out of your full sized carry gun would give better chances as long as you brought that full sized 9 with you.
A 45 Ranger T will hole saw a 1 1/16” hole about 24” deep and even with a non CNS hit will have someone bleeding out relatively fast.
In those 5 or 35 or 75 seconds (who knows) they will be stabbing or choking you or shooting at you.

I’ve posted this probably a dozen times now and hardly anyone has commented on actually reading the information. This isn’t a jumble of sensationalized gun rag articles and writers opinions on what they think works based off of shooting their pet pig to fill the freezer.
This is a great collection of ballistics articles from doctors and wound ballistic experts that helped define the way we look at wound ballistics today. These guys went against the normal and tested and myth busted everything they could. They went against the gun rag writers, book authors and big manufacturers to disprove gun myths that could get people killed by believing in them because they read it in a book written by an “expert”

IWBA Wound Ballistics Review - Google Drive

This is a whole ton of info that would have cost hundreds of dollar in the 90s and took 10 years to compile. All free from a member of another forum who wanted to pass it on.

Practice with your gun. Buy really good ammo. Yes a bigger hole is better for bleeding out. Don’t go to extremes though. A load of #8s from a 12 gauge will make a mess and someone will bleed out but you’ll never get a CNS hit.
You still need to reach the proper penetration depth for a CNS hit.
Shallow wounds don’t stop people fast enough.
On the other hand a 223 FMJ can penetrate way too deep and zip through creating sphincter like holes that don’t bleed well. Only up side if you have the penetration to get a CNS hit. Just watch out for the neighbors.

All of these threads tend towards simple answers due to lack of knowledge. Then the bar fights start.
We’re taking about tons of variables in the event of a shooting and trying to say that if we buys Federal HST everything will be fine.

So maybe micro-focusing doesn’t matter? Maybe we can make all the right choices and our shitty plastic glocks will jam anyway.
Or maybe we can look for some more knowledge and strive to understand why we make the choices we do.
 
Michael J. Spangler said:
View attachment 287469 Federal HST Micro 38 Special +P fired from a S&W 642 with a 1 7/8” barrel

View attachment 287470 View attachment 287471 View attachment 287472Winchester Ranger RA45T fired from a S&W 625 with a 5” barrel

These threads are always funny because there’s s ton of banter and nothing to back it up.

Stopping power is crap.

Incapacitation by a central nervous system hit or bleeding out is real.

Most modern ammo can reach a CNS hit but you need to do your part. Putting 17 rounds of 9mm out of your full sized carry gun would give better chances as long as you brought that full sized 9 with you.
A 45 Ranger T will hole saw a 1 1/16” hole about 24” deep and even with a non CNS hit will have someone bleeding out relatively fast.
In those 5 or 35 or 75 seconds (who knows) they will be stabbing or choking you or shooting at you.

I’ve posted this probably a dozen times now and hardly anyone has commented on actually reading the information. This isn’t a jumble of sensationalized gun rag articles and writers opinions on what they think works based off of shooting their pet pig to fill the freezer.
This is a great collection of ballistics articles from doctors and wound ballistic experts that helped define the way we look at wound ballistics today. These guys went against the normal and tested and myth busted everything they could. They went against the gun rag writers, book authors and big manufacturers to disprove gun myths that could get people killed by believing in them because they read it in a book written by an “expert”

IWBA Wound Ballistics Review - Google Drive

This is a whole ton of info that would have cost hundreds of dollar in the 90s and took 10 years to compile. All free from a member of another forum who wanted to pass it on.

Practice with your gun. Buy really good ammo. Yes a bigger hole is better for bleeding out. Don’t go to extremes though. A load of #8s from a 12 gauge will make a mess and someone will bleed out but you’ll never get a CNS hit.
You still need to reach the proper penetration depth for a CNS hit.
Shallow wounds don’t stop people fast enough.
On the other hand a 223 FMJ can penetrate way too deep and zip through creating sphincter like holes that don’t bleed well. Only up side if you have the penetration to get a CNS hit. Just watch out for the neighbors.

All of these threads tend towards simple answers due to lack of knowledge. Then the bar fights start.
We’re taking about tons of variables in the event of a shooting and trying to say that if we buys Federal HST everything will be fine.

So maybe micro-focusing doesn’t matter? Maybe we can make all the right choices and our shitty plastic glocks will jam anyway.
Or maybe we can look for some more knowledge and strive to understand why we make the choices we do.
Click to expand...

giphy.gif
 

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