95% sure there is a way to build a legal AR based pistol with full features.

[dcmdon]

In the past, when people have asked about building a pistol with a pre-94 ban receiver, I and many other knowledgeable people have said something to the tune of:

Pretty much impossible. Per the feds, once a rifle, always a rifle. You can't build it as a handgun.
And since pre-94 there were almost zero AR pistols in existence, you are very unlikely to find a pre-ban AR pistol lower.

I took that as gospel until recently. I saw a photo of a Mosin Nagant cut down to about a 6" barrel and the stock cut down to a pistol grip only. I thought, Hmm. How is that legal.

So I did some research and came up with the fact that if you register it as a SBR, you are no longer bound by barrel length or overall length requirements.

So. It would seem that if you have a pre-94 ban receiver and register it as a SBR, you can build it up as a pistol. This is clearly not a low cost option. And its not a solution for guys who want a reasonably priced fake SBR using an arm brace, but if you want a true AR pistol in MA, this is an option.

 

[glide]

There are plenty of options to build a post-94 AR pistol in MA. You’re over-thinking this.

And the “R” in SBR stands for “Rifle”.

 

[67ray]

There are plenty of options to build a post-94 AR pistol in MA. You’re over-thinking this.

And the “R” in SBR stands for “Rifle”.

Except in mass where SBR means 'firearm' not rifle

 

[dcmdon]

There are plenty of options to build a post-94 AR pistol in MA. You’re over-thinking this.

And the “R” in SBR stands for “Rifle”.

So give me one example of how to build a post 94 AR pistol that is legal in MA and has all the relevant features. (semi-automatic with detachable magazine).


Re rifle, meaning rifle, sometimes laws don't say what you imagine them to. The key here is that a registered SBR doesn't need to have a stock.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

"So. It would seem that if you have a pre-94 ban receiver and register it as a SBR, you can build it up as a pistol. This is clearly not a low cost option. And its not a solution for guys who want a reasonably priced fake SBR using an arm brace, but if you want a true AR pistol in MA, this is an option. "

I'm not sure I follow this logic. If you Form 1 tax stamp a pre-94 anything into an SBR, isn't that just an SBR at that point? You're calling it a pistol, but I always assumed "pistol" meant buffer tube with padding or an arm brace. Why would one put a brace on an SBR when you can go full stock (assuming Form 1 gets approved)? And hasn't this been an option since Form 1's have been in existence? Maybe I'm not understanding a finer point here.

 

[milktree]

"So. It would seem that if you have a pre-94 ban receiver and register it as a SBR, you can build it up as a pistol. This is clearly not a low cost option. And its not a solution for guys who want a reasonably priced fake SBR using an arm brace, but if you want a true AR pistol in MA, this is an option. "

I'm not sure I follow this logic. If you Form 1 tax stamp a pre-94 anything into an SBR, isn't that just an SBR at that point? You're calling it a pistol, but I always assumed "pistol" meant buffer tube with padding or an arm brace. Why would one put a brace on an SBR when you can go full stock (assuming Form 1 gets approved)? And hasn't this been an option since Form 1's have been in existence? Maybe I'm not understanding a finer point here.

"why would you want to" is a different question, and not the one he's addressing.

People want AR pistols for some reason.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

"why would you want to" is a different question, and not the one he's addressing.

People want AR pistols for some reason.

I still feel like I'm missing a point from OP, and I'm the first to admit that I'm often wrong, but I still can't wrap my head around this approach.

I get people want AR pistols, but I'd assume that's largely because they want to avoid the money and hassle of Form 1's for SBR's. My only point was that when you do Form 1 something for SBR, it is no longer a pistol, but an SBR. You can technically utilize a pistol brace at that point, but why bother when you can put a stock on it? And all this is putting on hold the rest of the MA pistol discussion of weight and barrel shroud. I'm just trying to figure out why anyone would bother to SBR and then make an AR pistol. That is, unless the goal is to actually make a internal buffer AR, like some sort of Han Solo blaster.

 

[duza9999]

The distinction is significant, while SBR‘s are illegal in Rhode Island let’s say hypothetically they were legal. You can conceal carry an AR pistol with a brace. Technically you could also concealed carry an in SBR if they were legal in RI due to the states definition of a pistol. However this is not the case in most states where SBR’s are legal.

 

[dcmdon]

"why would you want to" is a different question, and not the one he's addressing.

People want AR pistols for some reason.

I agree with you. I see no point in them. But it was still something I just realized.

Its just another option for someone who wants one and is stuck in MA with an AWB that prohibits pistols over 50oz.

 

[oldgunner]

People want AR pistols for some reason.

I could tell you why but then I'd have to kill ya! Only kidding

 

[dcmdon]

I still feel like I'm missing a point from OP, and I'm the first to admit that I'm often wrong, but I still can't wrap my head around this approach.

I get people want AR pistols, but I'd assume that's largely because they want to avoid the money and hassle of Form 1's for SBR's. My only point was that when you do Form 1 something for SBR, it is no longer a pistol, but an SBR. You can technically utilize a pistol brace at that point, but why bother when you can put a stock on it? And all this is putting on hold the rest of the MA pistol discussion of weight and barrel shroud. I'm just trying to figure out why anyone would bother to SBR and then make an AR pistol. That is, unless the goal is to actually make a internal buffer AR, like some sort of Han Solo blaster.

There are people who want AR pistols. REAL pistols, with a little stubby buffer tube.

NOt fake pistols with arm braces.

If you want a real pistol, theis isthe only legal way I know of to do it in MA.

 

[oldgunner]

The distinction is significant, while SBR‘s are illegal in Rhode Island let’s say hypothetically they were legal. You can conceal carry an AR pistol with a brace. Technically you could also concealed carry an in SBR if they were legal in RI due to the states definition of a pistol. However this is not the case in most states where SBR’s are legal.

 

[dcmdon]

The distinction is significant, while SBR‘s are illegal in Rhode Island let’s say hypothetically they were legal. You can conceal carry an AR pistol with a brace. Technically you could also concealed carry an in SBR if they were legal in RI due to the states definition of a pistol. However this is not the case in most states where SBR’s are legal.

RI has exactly opposite laws from MA.

No AWB. But SBRs are illegal.

For that, a new "pistol" with an arm brace is your way around.

 

[dcmdon]

There are plenty of options to build a post-94 AR pistol in MA. You’re over-thinking this.

And the “R” in SBR stands for “Rifle”.

Still waiting for those "plenty of ways".

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

There are people who want AR pistols. REAL pistols, with a little stubby buffer tube.

NOt fake pistols with arm braces.

If you want a real pistol, theis isthe only legal way I know of to do it in MA.

Like this?

That's still a carbine length buffer tube, just without a stock on it and a bit of foam. Why would someone want that over a legit stock with a Form 1? I get why you might need to have one to avoid SBR, but if you're going to SBR, then it no longer makes sense to me.

Any stubbier than that would require a major buffer system overhaul or AR180, I believe.

 

[glide]

So give me one example of how to build a post 94 AR pistol that is legal in MA and has all the relevant features. (semi-automatic with detachable magazine).


Re rifle, meaning rifle, sometimes laws don't say what you imagine them to. The key here is that a registered SBR doesn't need to have a stock.

Build it under the 50oz weight limit.

If you register it as an SBR it *can* have a stock. So why wouldn’t you?

Your original post also never included the detachable mag qualifier, so you could also obviously do a fixed mag build.

 

[dcmdon]

You guys don't get the point.

Somepeople want pistols. Like Reluctant decoy's picture.

Every few months,someone asks, How can I build a pistol in MA.

And the answer is always - you can't.

Well, this is a way to do it.

Please stop asking why you would want to. Who cares. Some people want this. (I don't, but I have an interest in finding legal ways around MA laws. this is one way around it)


So if you want a SBR. Then make an SBR. I always thought the pistol brace fake pistol SBR was stupid. I mean, for christ sake. $200. You spend that on ammo in a good weekend.

 

[drgrant]

I think most of the more savvy people knew about the SBR wallhack, but that involves getting an NFA registration for it. .

I disagree with pistol brace guns being stupid though... The cool thing about AR pistols in the rest of america is they don't need any of that crap (onerous NFA registration)
and they can go between states without a 2320. And you have 99% of the functionality of an SBR.

-Mike

 

[dcmdon]

I think most of the more savvy people knew about the SBR wallhack, but that involves getting an NFA registration for it. .

I disagree with pistol brace guns being stupid though... The cool thing about AR pistols in the rest of america is they don't need any of that crap (onerous NFA registration)
and they can go between states without a 2320. And you have 99% of the functionality of an SBR.

-Mike

I hadn't thought about the need for a 5320 (not 2320). That's a great point.

 

[CrackPot]

Build it under the 50oz weight limit.

If you register it as an SBR it *can* have a stock. So why wouldn’t you?

Your original post also never included the detachable mag qualifier, so you could also obviously do a fixed mag build.

Still a non-answer

5 features (paraphrased) that you are allowed only 1

1) 50oz
2) mag outside pistol grip
3) threaded barrel
4) copy of full auto
5) off hand grip so you dont get burned

So #2 is always true and your one feature. Lets say you can get around #1. Not easy but possible. You can manage #3. #4 I dont want to argue about, but there is the opinion that AR means copy of M16 (regardless of barrel length/type), but we are ignoring this one. How do you plan to get around #5? I guess you could leave off the hand guard. That will help with #1. But you really dont have much left at that point.

So I reiterate @dcmdon question, share the lots of ways to build one that is legal in MA? And no, fixed mag is not the point of this exercise.

 

[glide]

Still a non-answer

5 features (paraphrased) that you are allowed only 1

1) 50oz
2) mag outside pistol grip
3) threaded barrel
4) copy of full auto
5) off hand grip so you dont get burned

So #2 is always true and your one feature. Lets say you can get around #1. Not easy but possible. You can manage #3. #4 I dont want to argue about, but there is the opinion that AR means copy of M16 (regardless of barrel length/type), but we are ignoring this one. How do you plan to get around #5? I guess you could leave off the hand guard. That will help with #1. But you really dont have much left at that point.

So I reiterate @dcmdon question, share the lots of ways to build one that is legal in MA? And no, fixed mag is not the point of this exercise.

You’re putting a lot of qualifiers on this that weren’t in the original post, but okay....

Google Olympic Arms OA93. If you can’t figure out how to build something similar with 3D printing technology and polymer lowers, I don’t know what to tell you.

These may not be the answers you want but they are ways you can build an AR-15 pistol in MA. If you want one with all the bells and whistles and no restrictions; move.

 

[CrackPot]

You’re putting a lot of qualifiers on this that weren’t in the original post, but okay....

Google Olympic Arms OA93. If you can’t figure out how to build something similar with 3D printing technology and polymer lowers, I don’t know what to tell you.

These may not be the answers you want but they are ways you can build an AR-15 pistol in MA. If you want one with all the bells and whistles and no restrictions; move.

I don’t want one at all. I’m exempt from the AWB and can build whatever but don’t see the point. I GET @dcmdon original point. I don’t get yours...

 

[glide]

I don’t want one at all. I’m exempt from the AWB and can build whatever but don’t see the point. I GET @dcmdon original point. I don’t get yours...

You don’t get that I’ve provided several ways to build functional AR pistols in MA, legally?

 

[nutsym16]

Maura says no! Know two dealers who tried to transfer sbr's. Rejected.

 

[namedpipes]

The distinction is significant, while SBR‘s are illegal in Rhode Island let’s say hypothetically they were legal. You can conceal carry an AR pistol with a brace. Technically you could also concealed carry an in SBR if they were legal in RI due to the states definition of a pistol. However this is not the case in most states where SBR’s are legal.

I sense that if one actually did that in RI and were noticed by the cops somehow, the technical distinction would be lost on them and one would be facing jail or at least astounding legal bills.

Not saying you're wrong, just not sure I'd try it myself, even if I lived in RI.

 

[allen-1]

I think most of the more savvy people knew about the SBR wallhack, but that involves getting an NFA registration for it. .

I disagree with pistol brace guns being stupid though... The cool thing about AR pistols in the rest of america is they don't need any of that crap (onerous NFA registration)
and they can go between states without a 2320. And you have 99% of the functionality of an SBR.

-Mike

THIS^^^^.

I have a GA weapons permit. It's recognized in something like 33 states. I can cross into many of those states with a pistol without breaking any laws or filing any paperwork.

Hypothetically I could have an arm-braced (see Tactical Solutions), 7.5" barreled pistol with a red dot on it that's effectively a short barreled rifle. Hypothetically this pistol could have no manufacturer's marks on it because under Federal and GA law I can complete 80% lowers for my own use.

Realistically speaking, as opposed to hypothetically, that's exactly what I do.

Also realistically speaking - It's not in my truck when I head into the NorthEast.

 

[glide]

Maura says no! Know two dealers who tried to transfer sbr's. Rejected.

Form 1 gets around that issue.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

You guys don't get the point.

Somepeople want pistols. Like Reluctant decoy's picture.

Every few months,someone asks, How can I build a pistol in MA.

And the answer is always - you can't.

Well, this is a way to do it.

Please stop asking why you would want to. Who cares. Some people want this. (I don't, but I have an interest in finding legal ways around MA laws. this is one way around it)


So if you want a SBR. Then make an SBR. I always thought the pistol brace fake pistol SBR was stupid. I mean, for christ sake. $200. You spend that on ammo in a good weekend.

That part you bolded--that's the part I guess I don't comprehend. I'm not trying to give you a hard time here. Just thinking this out loud.

Those pistols with the tube braces like the picture I put up--I completely understand why they exist and all the benefits of going that route to avoid the time, money, and hassle of a Form 1 SBR tax stamp. I also see the point Drgrant brought up about crossing state lines being a no-no for SBR's. AR pistols make complete sense for those who live in a state where you can pull that off without any tricks. I'd do it too in a heartbeat (although, I'd go SB Tactical or Shockwave).

What I'm having a hard time understanding though is why someone would go through all the hassle of the Form 1 SBR tax stamp and then put a buffer tube brace on it when the tax stamp says you can now use a full stock. Are you telling me there are people who prefer that foam tube over a real stock? Because with tax stamp in hand, you have overcome the reason why those even exist. And even if you do want to put the foam tube on it, you still can't cross state lines now that it is a registered SBR, regardless of pistol brace.

But your point does stand in that this should work. I just figured all the posts asking how to make an AR pistol were people asking how to legally avoid Form 1 SBR in MA, not how to SBR a preban and then put a pistol brace on it. And those tube braces--I thought they are largely moot now that ATF said you can shoulder braces now. Those were cheek braces, no?

 

[dcmdon]

R Decoy. You said:

What I'm having a hard time understanding though is why someone would go through all the hassle of the Form 1 SBR tax stamp and then put a buffer tube brace on it when the tax stamp says you can now use a full stock.

I agree. But you are missing my point. There are people who do NOT want an arm brace on their AR pistol. IN other words they want a real pistol with as small a buffer as possible. Just like the pic you posted.

The pic you posted doesn't have a brace. Its just a foam covered buffer tube.

 

[ReluctantDecoy]

R Decoy. You said:

What I'm having a hard time understanding though is why someone would go through all the hassle of the Form 1 SBR tax stamp and then put a buffer tube brace on it when the tax stamp says you can now use a full stock.

I agree. But you are missing my point. There are people who do NOT want an arm brace on their AR pistol. IN other words they want a real pistol with as small a buffer as possible. Just like the pic you posted.

The pic you posted doesn't have a brace. Its just a foam covered buffer tube.

Yeah, but that buffer foam stock is a cheek-weld stock, not meant to shoulder. You could, but it won't feel all that nice, nor will it shoot at the best of the gun's capabilities. If you have the Form 1 SBR tax stamp, why on earth would you use that? And you're saying small, but that's still carbine length, meaning you could just slip a stock end on it and give up maybe an inch or less more overall length.