Acceptable Bullet Weight Variance for Long Range Competition?

Mountain

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Good f-ing grief Sierra Bullets, can't you make a product at least as consistent as bulk private brand Nosler Custom Competition blems?

OK, not really long range but a solid mid range at 600 yards. I'm loading up .30-06 for vintage sniper competition at Camp Ethan Allen next Wednesday. It can be a challenging range. If you can see 3 wind flags, they will likely be pointing in 3 different directions and one of them will be flapping briskly- until it doesn't, which will be right after you compensate then squeeze the trigger. Early AM start often includes fog or if clear, sun directly in your eyes. The last thing I want is excessive variation in the $$$ 175 grain Sierra Tipped Match Kings. Started weighing them just to be sure and glad I did- weights ranged from 174.44 to 175.46. Over half were ~175.06, plus or minus .04; but the rest were all over the map. Bought them on sale- did the vendor know they were a shitty lot?

On a couple precision shooting forums it seems that most competitors can accept plus or minus about .1 grains, give or take just a little. A vintage USMC sniper is a far cry from a free floated, bull barrel PRS gun and minor changes in powder charge and/or bullet weight can more easily throw the harmonics out of whack. Unless you are hitting dead center on the X (you won't be), one MOA of variation can drop that score from a '10' to an '8' on the 600 yard target. 8's suck. These TMK's are clearly plus or minus over .5 grains, yet are priced higher than most comparable projectiles other than Bergers unless you find a very good sale.

What weight variation do most folks find acceptable for longer distance competition? There's really no need to sweat such details (within reason) at my 200 yard competitions, but 600 yards starts getting 'real'. I like the TMK's high BC to minimize errors in my meager wind reading skills, but the cost/performance ratio sucks when you have to cull well over 1/3 and throw them in the practice load box. For skills reference, I'm still working on the longer distances but at 200 yards I usually win some version of trinkets / hardware and pick up a gold often enough. Got a couple bronze at Camp Perry. I'm no Carlos Hathcock, but do well enough that I should not be shooting mediocre loads.

Anyone shooting high BC 30 cal projectiles from Berger, Hornady, or Nosler? Happy with them?

@mac1911 - What does your wizard math say about 600 yard drop differences for as much as 1+ grain bullet weight variation?
 
Good f-ing grief Sierra Bullets, can't you make a product at least as consistent as bulk private brand Nosler Custom Competition blems?

OK, not really long range but a solid mid range at 600 yards. I'm loading up .30-06 for vintage sniper competition at Camp Ethan Allen next Wednesday. It can be a challenging range. If you can see 3 wind flags, they will likely be pointing in 3 different directions and one of them will be flapping briskly- until it doesn't, which will be right after you compensate then squeeze the trigger. Early AM start often includes fog or if clear, sun directly in your eyes. The last thing I want is excessive variation in the $$$ 175 grain Sierra Tipped Match Kings. Started weighing them just to be sure and glad I did- weights ranged from 174.44 to 175.46. Over half were ~175.06, plus or minus .04; but the rest were all over the map. Bought them on sale- did the vendor know they were a shitty lot?

On a couple precision shooting forums it seems that most competitors can accept plus or minus about .1 grains, give or take just a little. A vintage USMC sniper is a far cry from a free floated, bull barrel PRS gun and minor changes in powder charge and/or bullet weight can more easily throw the harmonics out of whack. Unless you are hitting dead center on the X (you won't be), one MOA of variation can drop that score from a '10' to an '8' on the 600 yard target. 8's suck. These TMK's are clearly plus or minus over .5 grains, yet are priced higher than most comparable projectiles other than Bergers unless you find a very good sale.

What weight variation do most folks find acceptable for longer distance competition? There's really no need to sweat such details (within reason) at my 200 yard competitions, but 600 yards starts getting 'real'. I like the TMK's high BC to minimize errors in my meager wind reading skills, but the cost/performance ratio sucks when you have to cull well over 1/3 and throw them in the practice load box. For skills reference, I'm still working on the longer distances but at 200 yards I usually win some version of trinkets / hardware and pick up a gold often enough. Got a couple bronze at Camp Perry. I'm no Carlos Hathcock, but do well enough that I should not be shooting mediocre loads.

Anyone shooting high BC 30 cal projectiles from Berger, Hornady, or Nosler? Happy with them?

@mac1911 - What does your wizard math say about 600 yard drop differences for as much as 1+ grain bullet weight variation?
Eh , you know me .5 grain swing in a bullet at 600 piff. My booger hook will deviate more!
I think # 1 its already in your head and you would expect Sierra match to hold a tighter degree of variation especially at the cost. So using those is already a “problem”

Like you said even less expensive bullets can/have better tolerances. My recent Garand food my Nosler CC all weighed 168-168.1 , sure did not matter in that rifle.
 
You're going to have to sit down and start separating them into weight classes or groups.
No point in tossing them out, just burn em off.

Bergers seem to be the go-to for the long range crowd on the yub-tub.
Thanks- I don't pitch them and do separate into groups. It's a PITA, and the ones that are the outliers may never have enough to use for anything but rough sighting in when I lose my zero.

I think I've only bought a couple boxes of Bergers for High Power .223 at 600 yards. Price turned me away usually, but the TMK's and most of the time the SMK's too are 'costing' me more in time and frustration. One of the guys who kicks my ass often shoots Hornady tipped match bullets. Maybe I'll take a look at those.

I'm not kidding- In my experience the house brand bulk match blems (from a couple suppliers not to be mentioned in MA) are significantly more consistent in both weight and length. Pretty sure they are from Nosler. At least from what I have seen so far, the SMK Palma bullets (155's, specific profile) have been consistent from Sierra. I bought 500 vintage SMK 168's from @wegman and those are very consistent- all from the same lot and in the old school cardboard boxes with perforated metal edges.
 
Eh , you know me .5 grain swing in a bullet at 600 piff. My booger hook will deviate more!
I think # 1 its already in your head and you would expect Sierra match to hold a tighter degree of variation especially at the cost. So using those is already a “problem”

Like you said even less expensive bullets can/have better tolerances. My recent Garand food my Nosler CC all weighed 168-168.1 , sure did not matter in that rifle.

The way I look at it, at the longer distances I don't need to stack up more inaccuracies on top of the ol' booger hook and so-so wind reading skills. I'd try to keep a 'bad' shot still within the 9 ring.
 
The way I look at it, at the longer distances I don't need to stack up more inaccuracies on top of the ol' booger hook and so-so wind reading skills. I'd try to keep a 'bad' shot still within the 9 ring.
I ran it through a basic balistic calculator
2400fps BC .535 300 yard zero , 1.5” sight hieght
174.175.176 all spit back -81.53” drop
At 600?
been a few years since I shot to 600 and only been 223 service rifle and I was powder measure dropping 24 gn Varget with nosler 77s to mag length….pewpewpew. In black is a good day .
been a long time since I have improved any. Struggle to shoot my average!
If the 200 yard fun sniper matches are any indicator of how I might do ……..im the last one to give advice!!! Lol
 
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I ran it through a basic balistic calculator
2400fps BC .535 300 yard zero , 1.5” sight hieght
174.175.176 all spit back -81.53” drop
At 600?
been a few years since I shot to 600 and only been 223 service rifle and I was powder measure dropping 24 gn Varget with nosler 77s to mag length….pewpewpew. In black is a good day .
been a long time since I have improved any. Struggle to shoot my average!
Don't listen to him folks, when he says struggle to shoot my average that means high score at the next match- assuming he didn't cast the bullets from floor sweepings and brake dust. :)

Kidding aside, it's a little different story when shooting all prone bolt gun with a 8X scope. Fewer excuses. ;)
 
Don't listen to him folks, when he says struggle to shoot my average that means high score at the next match- assuming he didn't cast the bullets from floor sweepings and brake dust. :)

Kidding aside, it's a little different story when shooting all prone bolt gun with a 8X scope. Fewer excuses. ;)
I shoot iron sighted rifles better than my 1903a4 clone!
Anyway…. Sort”em and shut up and shoot! Good luck up there!
 
I shoot iron sighted rifles better than my 1903a4 clone!
Anyway…. Sort”em and shut up and shoot! Good luck up there!

Done. Waiting for my beer to chill to go back to the @TrashcanDan workbench and seat those damn things. Already charged the powder- that I'll do before the beer.

Will test in the AM. If they suck I'll just bring factory Creedmoor ammo.
 
I always weigh and separate. The off weight bullets I will use at the range for practice and drills.

I'm not going to lie, I am a Berger whore. I find they are very consistent, and I get great results out of them, especially in the 6.5.

I tried nosler in the 308, didn't get good results, actually they were horrible results. Hornady was much better. But, in the 300 win mag, nosler performed better than the Hornady.

Still not as good as the Bergers for actual distance though, they handle wind a lot better. Or least they handle wind better in my mind. If you are under something like 800 yards, I would try Hornady out if you don't like the price of the Bergers.
 
What's the weight variance on those chinese scales 🤔
I have one of the less crappy gemstone scales. Variance can be +-0.1 grains, but when carefully weighing something I'll frequently re-zero and check against a calibration weight so that I should be getting better than 0.1 variance. Seems consistent with an old balance scale too. In any case, it's nowhere near the +-0.5 grains variance of the TMK's.

@Tallahassee , I may just try the Bergers for 600. I had best results in a 6.5 Creedmoor AR with Nosler 140 RDF's even against Bergers, but what few Bergers I have tried have all been very close to the specified weight.
 
One and done....no more?
 
One and done....no more?
Those things, so Fn smart but could not read the wind. About useless atvthat point.
Whats the drift on a 250gn 338 or what ever those things came in
50” at 1000 yards with a Full value 10mph or so?
 
I have more time to sit around than to go shooting so I got to "thinking" which leads to me think.....thinking can be bad.
I feel sometimes once you "think" its nfg its going to stick in your head and effect down range results.

As for bullet weight--- I used a generic calculator with a generic input of data.
Sierra says the 308dia 175 TMK has a BC of .545 at 2400 fps so I used that and the Generic 1.5" sight height. Alone with the default atmospheric conditions.


175 grains
1631979743732.png


174 grains
1631979972152.png

176 grains
1631980060364.png

Now this is all fine and dandy and there should be no change in poi/poa if everything is going 2400 fps so now you need to think ......will the velocities change enough with a powder charge for 175s at 2400 with the 174 , 176 weights?
Well lets use Quick loads to see. again Generic load data and I will use varget powder and a 24" barrel for my data. Also will use 30-06 max 3.340" COAL
 
Now here is what Quick loads puts out for data on the 175s 43.27 grains of varget gets me 2400 fps. so now we will just change the bullet weight and keep an eye on velocity. Im still going with the +/- of 1 grain 174,175,176 .
1631980602315.png

174 grain picks up 2 fps
1631980666294.png

176 looses 3 fps
1631980745821.png


so you have a a total of 5 fps change or fluctuation so unless your standard deviation or extreme spread is lower than this my thoughts are even a grain or 2 difference in bullet weight from the same lot of bullets is not going to have much effect vs your SD and ES values ? It all adds up and eliminating variables is a good thing to do. Much like measuring powder to the exact grain? Toss this one out at you. If you weigh out 2 charges of powder to the exact weight lets say you can go 2 Tenths accuracy with your scale. Lets say varget 45.58 grains. will they have the exact same volume? something tells me no. ?

Things get even more fun when you start to think. What if all your bullets weighed exactly 175 grains but you could not pick up that the jacket is thick on one side than the other enough that spinning it at 170,000 rpms it wobbles all over the place!
 
20210918_110718.jpg

So here's today's sorting out of the vintage sniper. First shot at bottom is my 200 yard zero. Next two shots up 300 yard come-up, one before the 600 yard come-up shots and one last shot before packing the rifle away. I'm a little left on purpose- I expect some wind + a hair of spin drift.

Next on target are the shots for the 600 yard come-up (G7 BC calculation via Kestrel) for 175 TMK's at my fps. The two shots 3 MOA above and below were to check scope tracking between some of the shots. So after 10 shots this standard GI contour barrel should be plenty warmed up. This is the most consistent result I have ever had with this rifle. I was fighting some other issues with the rifle and scope, but after working on those it was still usually no better than 1.5 MOA. Haven't measured the group yet but it should be close to MOA, and all the other shots are within 1 MOA of my intended POI.

So now I have good results on paper and the bad results out of my head, LOL. All I hope for in the match next week is to significantly improve on my 2019 score (Wu flu shut down last year). Sorting the f-ing TMK's seems to have netted a good result. Thanks @mac1911 for all the 'wizard math'- seems that the velocity differences may not be the significant factor? I'll chalk it up to varying dynamics from an 80 year old rifle and the possibility that the excessively heavy or light bullets may be less uniform in balance and/or shape.

So now it should be pretty much up to the 'loose screw' behind the trigger.
 
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wtf is that ?
LOL, larger target spotter at bottom is POA at 100 yards. The two smaller spotters are the calculated POI's for 300 and 600 yards while I'm aiming at the bottom spotter. All part of the fun of not having a 600 yard range close to home. Surprisingly, using this method in competition has always put my first shots at 600 into the 9-ring at worst.
 
View attachment 524141

So here's today's sorting out of the vintage sniper. First shot at bottom is my 200 yard zero. Next two shots up 300 yard come-up, one before the 600 yard come-up shots and one last shot before packing the rifle away. I'm a little left on purpose- I expect some wind + a hair of spin drift.

Next on target are the shots for the 600 yard come-up (G7 BC calculation via Kestrel) for 175 TMK's at my fps. The two shots 3 MOA above and below were to check scope tracking between some of the shots. So after 10 shots this standard GI contour barrel should be plenty warmed up. This is the most consistent result I have ever had with this rifle. I was fighting some other issues with the rifle and scope, but after working on those it was still usually no better than 1.5 MOA. Haven't measured the group yet but it should be close to MOA, and all the other shots are within 1 MOA of my intended POI.

So now I have good results on paper and the bad results out of my head, LOL. All I hope for in the match next week is to significantly improve on my 2019 score (Wu flu shut down last year). Sorting the f-ing TMK's seems to have netted a good result. Thanks @mac1911 for all the 'wizard math'- seems that the velocity differences may not be the significant factor? I'll chalk it up to varying dynamics from an 80 year old rifle and the possibility that the excessively heavy or light bullets may be less uniform in balance and/or shape.

So now it should be pretty much up to the 'loose screw' behind the trigger.
well IF you have any problems it was them shitty bullets!


for some new shooters out there heres some basic come ups for shooting at fixed ranges this works surprising well from 223-8mm it will get you close in relationship of distance and Service rifle target sizes.

100-200 3
200-300 3
300-400 4
400-500 4
500-600 5
600-700 5
700-800 6
800-900 8
900-1000 8
 
well IF you have any problems it was them shitty bullets!


for some new shooters out there heres some basic come ups for shooting at fixed ranges this works surprising well from 223-8mm it will get you close in relationship of distance and Service rifle target sizes.

100-200 3
200-300 3
300-400 4
400-500 4
500-600 5
600-700 5
700-800 6
800-900 8
900-1000 8
I loaded the TMK's a little hot plus they are a little flatter shooting. Come-up is 12 MOA, so those numbers at 13 MOA would have been more than close enough. If I were shooting normal 168's, spot on.

I had several problems stacking up. Shit bullets one of them.
 
I feel like I should start reading textbooks again. Very good info.

Come Wednesday, I'll see the result of this prep. CMP went to electronic targets for these matches, so at the 600 yard stage you get to see the impact basically in 'real time'. It's very tempting to look at the display & I have to remember to follow through with the shot before I look. Takes almost a second for the bullet to hit the target.
 
Who weighs bullets?

Once you start going down that rabbit hole, there's no end to it. Weighing brass, trickling powder, trying different primers, etc.. Pretty soon, every little thing is going to have to be absolutely perfect or you are going to have a sub-par performance. At least in your head.
It's a huge target. It's not Benchrest: Load bullets right from the box. Dump powder right from the measure. Load up a ton of ammo and go shoot, because there's more points to be gained from shot execution than there is from a half-grain difference in bullet weight.
 
Who weighs bullets?

Once you start going down that rabbit hole, there's no end to it. Weighing brass, trickling powder, trying different primers, etc.. Pretty soon, every little thing is going to have to be absolutely perfect or you are going to have a sub-par performance. At least in your head.
It's a huge target. It's not Benchrest: Load bullets right from the box. Dump powder right from the measure. Load up a ton of ammo and go shoot, because there's more points to be gained from shot execution than there is from a half-grain difference in bullet weight.
And if these calculators are correct or incapable of .5 or 1 grain variance changes
It dont matter, if im benched later ( hips are on fire) I will play with the calculators to see at what weight it will change any of the data?
Thinking can be bad.
Sometimes tou just have to shut up and shoot!
 
Who weighs bullets?

Once you start going down that rabbit hole, there's no end to it. Weighing brass, trickling powder, trying different primers, etc.. Pretty soon, every little thing is going to have to be absolutely perfect or you are going to have a sub-par performance. At least in your head.
It's a huge target. It's not Benchrest: Load bullets right from the box. Dump powder right from the measure. Load up a ton of ammo and go shoot, because there's more points to be gained from shot execution than there is from a half-grain difference in bullet weight.

I'm often dump and run for anything 200 yards or less, unless some regional / national event where I want to control anything I can.

If you were chasing leg points and needed a hard leg, you mean to tell me you would dump and run your loads?
 
I'm often dump and run for anything 200 yards or less, unless some regional / national event where I want to control anything I can.

If you were chasing leg points and needed a hard leg, you mean to tell me you would dump and run your loads?
I've always have done it that way. I've never weighed an individual powder charge, bullet, or case.
I got Distunguished and P100 doing it that way. Just shot my highest score ever yesterday in Nashua.


Edit: I mention myself in that to just illustrate that you can make great ammo using non-sorted components on a Dillon 650.
 
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I've always have done it that way. I've never weighed an individual powder charge, bullet, or case.
I got Distunguished and P100 doing it that way. Just shot my highest score ever yesterday in Nashua.
There used to be a older sierra reloading video with a young TUBB hosting.
He mentions reloading for palma team on a Dillon 650 and just cranking them out.
Seems the video has been taken down.
Its old as the end of the video is states its available on VHS and CD
 
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