Accurize a rifle

[BMX]

Need advice on a good gunsmith around the Boston Metro area or North Shore that can work on my CZ 527 in .223. It's not shooting the consistent groups I expected from the bench after my first 60 rounds (with AE bulk .223 though) and I think I want to have the inletting checked and possibly a bedding job done. Any advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[Moderator]

What's the twist on the gun, what grain bullet are you using? Have you tried any quality reloads or match loads? Have you tried letting someone else shoot it? Though I've never owned one, I've heard very good things about CZ rifles.

 

[Bonesinium]

You need consistent ammo to shoot consistent groups first. Shooting bulk is can do a disservice to an otherwise fine rifle.

 

[mac1911]

with AE bulk .223 though....... your just not going to get good repeatable results with this stuff.
What are you actually getting for groups? What do you expect.....also have you made sure your scoup rings/mount have not come loose?

Pretty sure that rifle is 1:9 twist to handle a bit heavier bullet.
If you want a decent pillar bedding order the VZ synthetic stock with alluminum bedding. Im not sure if the wood stock comes with that opption.

I would clean the bore with a good copper solvent, make sure your ALL screws are snug and try some better ammo. If you dont reload some hornady or black hills match or varmint loads with the Vmax bullets should get you into the 1" area if your skills and scope set up can. Try a more solid rest. Shoot for groups zero your scope later.
Once you find a ammo that your rifle likes try to stock up on it.....same lot if possible.

REMEMBER ALSO these rifles where not intended to take repeated shot after shot after shot use. its a hunting gun. COLD shot then a follow up and possible a 3rd shot if another varmint is still hanging around. The barrels are pretty thin and can heat up quickly......not enough in my mind to render the rifle useless for kill zone shots but sub moa groups will not be likely. I had the 7.62x39 version and it was a great little gun. had to reload to get even close to 1" average was just under 2" off a rifle rest....I had no love for the rifle so I sold it.

 

[BMX]

Yes very surprised with the situation. I'm getting 4 MOA groups with zero placement consistency from 50 yards on a sighting target. I'd like to get at/near 1 MOA.

This is the 1:12 twist as it's the American model withy the sporter barrel. The Varmint version has the heavy barrel and is 1:9.

My other CZ, a 17HMR rimfire, is 1 MOA rifle all day with Hornady 17 gr. V-Max ammo with zero adjustment out of the box after a thorough cleaning.

I did notice that my first shot at both shooting sessions was my best from the cold barrel so heat could be an issue, though I was not rapid firing at all.

I will will thoroughly clean the barrel and get some high quality ammo to see where that gets me first. I know the bulk 55 gr. AE .223 is not made for accuracy but I figured it would be a little better than this.

 

[cockpitbob]

The 55gr bullet should be fine with a 12" twist. I assume the holes in the paper are round, not key holes.

4MOA sounds like a bad bedding problem unless the ammo is total crap. I've never seen a good bedding job not improve a rifle.

If the gun is new I would talk to CZ. 4MOA has to be well below their expectations.

 

[MetalgodZ]

Yes very surprised with the situation. I'm getting 4 MOA groups with zero placement consistency from 50 yards on a sighting target. I'd like to get at/near 1 MOA.

This is the 1:12 twist as it's the American model withy the sporter barrel. The Varmint version has the heavy barrel and is 1:9.

My other CZ, a 17HMR rimfire, is 1 MOA rifle all day with Hornady 17 gr. V-Max ammo with zero adjustment out of the box after a thorough cleaning.

I did notice that my first shot at both shooting sessions was my best from the cold barrel so heat could be an issue, though I was not rapid firing at all.

I will will thoroughly clean the barrel and get some high quality ammo to see where that gets me first. I know the bulk 55 gr. AE .223 is not made for accuracy but I figured it would be a little better than this.

Don't know if this helps, but for reference, my wife's 527 varmint (kevlar, 1:9) shoots around 1.75 MOA with pretty much any bulk, brass-cased, 55gr stuff I've fed it. It seems to like 62gr S&B about the best (solid 1-1.25 MOA) and opens up to about 1.5 MOA with heavier stuff (Hornady 75gr steel match, Hornady 68gr match) and 62gr bulk stuff (Federal XM855, etc.)

My only problem with the rifle has been consistently light primer strikes. Need to get that looked at.

 

[jasons]

I had a bunch of that ammo a few years back and thought it would be just fine for 200 yard offhand practice. The stuff just didn't group, not even from a bench. I would suggest trying some better ammo before you pay a gunsmith.

 

[BMX]

Don't know if this helps, but for reference, my wife's 527 varmint (kevlar, 1:9) shoots around 1.75 MOA with pretty much any bulk, brass-cased, 55gr stuff I've fed it. It seems to like 62gr S&B about the best (solid 1-1.25 MOA) and opens up to about 1.5 MOA with heavier stuff (Hornady 75gr steel match, Hornady 68gr match) and 62gr bulk stuff (Federal XM855, etc.)

My only problem with the rifle has been consistently light primer strikes. Need to get that looked at.

Thanks. The 1:12 rate of my barrel can only handle up to 55 gr ammo.over that and key holing can be a problem ive
read.

 

[Moderator]

55gr might be a bit heavy for a 1:12. I'd look for something in the 40-45gr area.

 

[BMX]

Just picked up some Hornady 55 gr FMJ. I will see what a good cleaning and this ammo does with 3-5 minutes of barrel cooling time between shots. If this doesn't solve the problem It'll be off to the gunsmith for diagnostics.

 

[KBCraig]

It can't be fixed. Total piece of junk.

I'll take it off your hands for fifty bucks.

 

[mac1911]

Just picked up some Hornady 55 gr FMJ. I will see what a good cleaning and this ammo does with 3-5 minutes of barrel cooling time between shots. If this doesn't solve the problem It'll be off to the gunsmith for diagnostics.

If your telling me your getting 4moa or 4" center to center groups @ 50 yards I would take a serious look at your scope and rings.
FMJ ammo has got to be the worst for accuracy.

 

[Bonesinium]

Yes very surprised with the situation. I'm getting 4 MOA groups with zero placement consistency from 50 yards on a sighting target. I'd like to get at/near 1 MOA.

2'' at 50 yards and not consistent? Is your scope and/or mount out of whack?

 

[BMX]

Hum... scope seems fine. New Leupold VX2 4-12 with Leupold rings and all screws are hand tight with no bottoming out between the ring pieces. I did not lap or use an alignment ring though. Could be the scope, I really can't say for sure.

 

[PEW]

55gr might be a bit heavy for a 1:12. I'd look for something in the 40-45gr area.

This. My 1:12 loves 45 and 50 grain. 55 starts to open up a bit, but I still use it for blasting ammo.

all screws are hand tight with no bottoming out between the ring pieces.

Hand tight? Is that hand well calibrated ? I would look into a torque driver if I were you.

 

[BMX]

Thanks for the advice, others have mentioned this too. I will pick up some lighter loads before the next range trip and let you all know how I make out.

 

[mac1911]

Hum... scope seems fine. New Leupold VX2 4-12 with Leupold rings and all screws are hand tight with no bottoming out between the ring pieces. I did not lap or use an alignment ring though. Could be the scope, I really can't say for sure.

Try the rings that come with the rifle? When I finally broke down and purchased a torque screw driver I soon relized I was over tightening almost all my scopes mounts and rings.

You have the adj objective? Are you dialing in the obj to eliminate parallax? @ 50 yards I can only assume you have it on 4x ?

 

[BMX]

Thanks for the suggestion. Yes I have the AO and dialed it to 50 yds. though I was shooting at 8x. The rings were hand tightened to around 20-25 inch lbs from my best guess. There is no visible sign of slippage.

When I bought it I removed the stock to clean the gunk CZ puts on all of their rifles and reassembled it. The rear action screw was also hand tightened as my torque wrench was too short to clear the trigger guard. All of these things may be the problem, so I will loosen and retorque one thing at a time after a few rounds with the new ammo to see if I can isolate the problem, but a good gunsmith may be the best remedy as my experience is limited, especially if it's a problem with the stock fit.

 

[whatluck]

Could be a ton of things.

It's probably the stock mounting screws, since you messed with those. Too loose and the action walks around in the stock, and too tight and you can actually bend the stock. Most of the time that block that you screw into is aluminum, so it really doesn't take a lot of torque at all to stop it from moving around.

Also I'd inspect that stock thoroughly inside and out. It looks nice but wood stocks can hide a crack really well. It looks like a nice clean gun though.

Could be the scope mount screws in the receiver, or the rings themselves. They really need to be torqued up evenly a little at a time alternating between screws to spread the load out, I like to torque them just barely past spec and then back down.

Also could be the crown, how's the barrel look? Are the lands and grooves clear all the way up the throat? What about the bolt? Is there any funny wear, especially on the lugs?

Is it a new gun? Who installed the scope and rings? Department store guns are notorious for having improperly installed optics.

Good luck.

 

[Gammon]

Ammunition is the most likely problem and the easiest to fix. I would experiment with some heavier bullets.
I built my first AR with a 1/9 bull barrel using a tube hand guard to free float the barrel for maximum accuracy. This supposedly accurate gun grouped 1.5 in @ 100 yds for five shots with 55 gr bullets. I was extremely disappointed and tried some 69 gr Sierra bullets to salvage the operation. The heavier bullets grouped .343 in for five shots at the same distance.

 

[BMX]

Thanks for all the good advice whatluck. It's a new gun and the factory test shots were under the 2 MOA standard with three shots. The scope was installed by me and I'm not the most mechanically inclined of shooters. The crown looks good to the naked eye - the grooves are all evenly coated with powder from the last session and everything looks uniform. The rifle has never been dropped or abused in any way. The lands and grooves are tough for me to see from end to end but I will get in there with a flashlight. All cleaning has been done with a bore guide and a Dewey rod with brass jags and nylon brushes using Hoppes 9 and Ballistol, then wiped clean and dry.


Like you said "could be lots of things" so I'm going to give it the once over tonight and will report back

 

[mac1911]

Thanks for all the good advice whatluck. It's a new gun and the factory test shots were under the 2 MOA standard with three shots. The scope was installed by me and I'm not the most mechanically inclined of shooters. The crown looks good to the naked eye - the grooves are all evenly coated with powder from the last session and everything looks uniform. The rifle has never been dropped or abused in any way. The lands and grooves are tough for me to see from end to end but I will get in there with a flashlight. All cleaning has been done with a bore guide and a Dewey rod with brass jags and nylon brushes using Hoppes 9 and Ballistol, then wiped clean and dry.


Like you said "could be lots of things" so I'm going to give it the once over tonight and will report back

Is it possible the rear spacer......metal tube through the stock on rear reciever screw is missing.....or can the front and rear screws be in backwards.
I have a old sears branded bolt gun that its easy to swap the screws as there is just a minor difference in shoulder length. They will tighten up but forces the rear of the action up wedging the barrel in the channel causeing all sorts of issues.

 

[dcmdon]

My 2 cents are this.

1) buy the wheeler engineering scope mounting kit for $80 on amazon. It comes with a torque wrench and a lapping bar. Mount the rings properly torqued and lap them. Then install the scope and blue loctite the screws and screw them to the proper torque.

2) Buy some black hills or similar ammunition.

3) go to the range with yourself and someone who can consistently shoot a scoped rifle to 1 moa.

4) Shoot the gun. You've just eliminated the 3 most likely variables.

If its good with the friend and bad with you, we know you are the problem. If its good for both of you, we know it was one of the items you addressed with the wheeler kit or the ammo. If its still bad, then send it back to CZ.

I'm not saying bedding won't help. It will always help. But there's no point in paying to bed a gun that won't shoot better than 4 moa in the first place.

One other thing. I have a Browning A Bolt Micro. It is reasonably accurate for the first 2 shots, then it really starts to open up. It has a skinny little barrel that gets warm to the touch after 1 shot. I don't know how thin that barrel is, but like you said, waiting can't hurt. Also make sure you leave the bolt open.

Don

 

[BMX]

Thanks mac1911 and dcmdon.

I thoroughly cleaned and retorqued everything tonight. I did notice that there was a small gap between the bottom metal and the action where the bottom metal was riding on top of the channel in the receiver rather than fitted into it - obviously an unnoticed mistake from my last tear-down cleaning.

I also noticed that the stock was a bit closer to the left side of the barrel than the right at the channel and this may have caused some interaction between the two during firing. I straightened it out by fitting some paper between the barrel and stock before tightening the action screws to keep the barrel aligned.

Finally I can tell that the scope rings were not 100% in alignment as the opposing screws (front left and rear right) could tighten more than the opposite set (if that makes sense). I worked that out manually but will go the lapping and alignment route route if these fixes don't work when I retest over the weekend. I did have blue loctite on the screws though.

will report back.... Again thanks all.

 

[dcmdon]

Excellent. I'm glad we could help. I see you are a HSC member. I am too.

It may be a couple of weeks, but I'll be heading down there some weekend soon. I have a new rifle that I need to break in the barrel. I'd be happy to bring the ring lapping kit and a torque wrench.

Are you checked out on the 200/300?

If there is one thing I have learned its that people are terrible judges of torque and trigger pull weights. I didn't realize this until I bought an in-lb torque wrench and a trigger pull gauge. Most people have no clue what 20 in-lbs or 3 lbs of pull feels like. I know I didn't. And everyone I've tested against my trigger pull gauge has been off by 50% or more. A torque wrench is a great thing to have. Most rings have teeny tiny bolts that have a specific torque they should be torqued to.

Don

 

[KBCraig]

...4moa or 4" center to center groups @ 50 yards...

Time for a new lesson on what MOA means, I see.

 

[dcmdon]

I think Mac was not trying to say they are the same thing. He was trying to clarify what the OP was saying.

4" at 50 yards would obviously be 8MOA

 

[BMX]

To clarify I was getting, at best, 2" groups at 50 yards, or 4 MOA.

 

[mac1911]

I think Mac was not trying to say they are the same thing. He was trying to clarify what the OP was saying.

4" at 50 yards would obviously be 8MOA

Correct....... just clarifying.

OP......... I have learned go where man last touched it. When trying to find axproblem

My math skills applied to shooting are just ok. I still need my wind cheat sheet and put cheat sheets in my scope lens covers. That said more people I deal with treat moa as 1" regardless of distance.......... best is a friend shot on the 200 yard line with me shot a 15" CTC 5 shot group... and called a 15" of angle group?