Advisory letter re: "Simkin v. Commonwealth" & "Commonwealth v. Couture"

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Based on the summaries of these two cases (click here), I wonder if it would be advisable for someone to send a letter to police departments advising them of these two cases, and to act appropriately when dealing with these sorts of situations. We KNOW the "other side" isn't going to push this. Who would be the lobbyist for this idea? Comm2A? GOAL? NRA? GOA? Time2A?

Just thinking out loud here. If it isn't put in front of them on a silver platter, they won't eat it. Got to keep the good stuff rolling in, and no better way than to post a press release or some other sort of advisory. I don't know enough about this stuff to do it myself.

Thanks for listening.
 
I think it's a great idea. If any groups are going to do it, it should be GOAL and Comm2A in a joint release. Send it to every chief in the state and put them on notice that arresting someone simply for OC will be met with a lawsuit. Civil rights violation and all that good stuff.
 
It should come from EOPS.

Having listened to some chiefs rant about GOAL, I'd say that anything from GOAL would go in the trash unopened when it hits a PD, so not useful.
 
So, are you suggesting GOAL and Comm2A lobby EOPS to do this? Maybe work with Polito on this?
 
So, are you suggesting GOAL and Comm2A lobby EOPS to do this? Maybe work with Polito on this?

Not a bad idea. But Comm2A does not lobby, not part of their charter. They are also picking their fights very carefully and methodically, so don't expect them to jump on this immediately.
 
No, this is a waste of time. I expect that police understand the law well enough to know when they can conduct a Terry stop or other detention based upon someone's possession of a firearm. I've queried enough cops to know that they actually receive decent training on this. That's not to say that their aren't some who didn't get the memo, but there's a way to deal with that if the time comes.

If we're going to send out 'advisory notices' to PDs it's going to be in the form of C&D letters for things that are actually actionable. And those things are out there.

ETA: If someone is actually detained improperly due solely to their possession of a firearm, Comm2A would be willing to take a close look at that situation to see if there is in fact a cause of action relative to police action contrary to the two mentioned cases. However, we're no longer at our first rodeo. We're not interested in helping someone prove a point the way recent open carrier of long guns have tried to do in other states. Don't act like an idiot and expect people to jump in on your side.
 
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I do not know how EOPS operates but if they would be willing to distribute that information, that would be great.

The only issue I can see with this is the COP would have to bring up the importance of not harassing gun owners to the people that actually patrol.
A licensing related notification might make a direct affect as the COP is directly in charge of licensing. A COP has to care enough to notify his entire staff to be aware of this court decision and implement it as policy. The only thing I can think of that would influence a COP is either a higher up official (good luck) or public pressure.

I make no claims of understanding law enforcement agency politics, but

HERES AN IDEA

Let's face it. While we are a large community as a whole. We are vastly outnumbered by people who are anti-gun, indifferent, or just not educated about 2A rights.
Writing a letter to your own police chief may do little besides make him have an itch in his ass for you.

What if we started something where a letter is sent via mail form each individual to every agency in MA besides the ones through which their licensed is issued (to avoid getting put on your own chiefs $H!+ list.)

The letter would essentially state what Coyote33 mentioned and how important it is as gun owners who travel through different jurisdictions.

It would have the force of numbers on our side. The letters would have to be opened because they wouldn't come from goal, they would come from hundreds or thousands of individuals to each chief.

There are things to take into consideration.
-Would we stepping on Comm2A and GOAL's shoes? As Len2A said they are picking their fights methodically. Would this move be like a bull in a china shop?
-Would we want to send it to Green town chiefs?
-Is this legal?

Honestly I don't think the police is really the main issue. It is the stigma of gun owners that needs to change. I would love to see campaigns go out promoting gun ownership, self defense, and judging people by their actions and not by what they are capable of doing. Gun ownership needs to be normalized.
This is not a well thought out plan so don't hold this against me because it is all just a late like ramble.

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Based on the sumopportunitys of these two cases (click here), I wonder if it would bis a 4 advisable for someone to send a letter to police departments advising them of these two cases, and to act appropriately when dealing with these sorts of situations. We KNOW the "other side" isn't going to push this. Who would be the lobbyist for this idea? Comm2A? GOAL? NRA? GOA? Time2A?

Just thinking out loud here. If it isn't put in front of them on a silver platter, they won't eat it. Got to keep the good stuff rolling in, and no better way than to post a press release or some other sort of advisory. I don't know enough about this stuff to do it myself.

Thanks for listening.

Great idea, but dont waste your time and effort. The PDs already have this, and its getting addressed at in service training as well. I would agree that the majority of the COPs wouldnt even see the letter, their secretaries would have more than likely circular filed it.
Unfortunately, just because its on a silver platter, doesnt mean its going to be eaten.
A guy on my dept searched a car today due to the smell of unburnt marijuana. Oh, and a backpack. This is a 41 year old man, with a masters degree in CJ, and 15 years on the job. He found a scale, pre packaged marijuana, and some heroin. Its all going south, because he is an idiot.
Conceal your shit, dont give LE the opportunity to interpret Simpkin.
Just my 2 cents
 
Great idea, but dont waste your time and effort. The PDs already have this, and its getting addressed at in service training as well. I would agree that the majority of the COPs wouldnt even see the letter, their secretaries would have more than likely circular filed it.
Unfortunately, just because its on a silver platter, doesnt mean its going to be eaten.
A guy on my dept searched a car today due to the smell of unburnt marijuana. Oh, and a backpack. This is a 41 year old man, with a masters degree in CJ, and 15 years on the job. He found a scale, pre packaged marijuana, and some heroin. Its all going south, because he is an idiot.
Conceal your shit, dont give LE the opportunity to interpret Simpkin.
Just my 2 cents

Do you mean the LEO was an idiot because it will get thrown out in court for 4th amendment violation? From what I understand, the mere scent of marijuana is not admissible as probable cause. Is this correct?


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Dis you mean the LEO was an idiot because it will get thrown out in court for 4th amendment violation? From what I understand, the mere scent of marijuana is not admissible as probable cause. Is this correct?


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Yes. I mean the LEO is an idiot for failing to either acknowledge, understand, or adhere to current case law in regards to the smell of burnt and/or unburnt marijuna. The smell alone of burnt/unburnt marijuana does not allow LE to tear your car apart anymore in search of your stash. We have had this preached to us ad nauseum since the decision came out, yet my guy does it anyways. This is why I recommend keeping your roscoe concealed
 
Yes. I mean the LEO is an idiot for failing to either acknowledge, understand, or adhere to current case law in regards to the smell of burnt and/or unburnt marijuna. The smell alone of burnt/unburnt marijuana does not allow LE to tear your car apart anymore in search of your stash. We have had this preached to us ad nauseum since the decision came out, yet my guy does it anyways. This is why I recommend keeping your roscoe concealed

Thanks for clarifying. Do you know by chance if you may plead the 5th on whether you are currently carrying when asked? I know presentation of ltc is required in MA.


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Thaniss for clarifying. Do you know by chance if you may plead the 5th on whether you are currently carrying when asked? I know presentation of ltc is required in MA.


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Plead the fifth? In regards to whether youre carrying or not? You can always plead the fifth, but be prepared to deal with the ramifications of that.
Presentation of an LTC is only required when youre known to be carrying a firearm, theres an abundance of case law on that already.
If youre legally carrying, and somehow an LEO gets the chance to ask you if youre carrying, why would you bother with pleading the fifth?
 
Plead the fifth? In regards to whether youre carrying or not? You can always plead the fifth, but be prepared to deal with the ramifications of that.
Presentation of an LTC is only required when youre known to be carrying a firearm, theres an abundance of case law on that already.
If youre legally carrying, and somehow an LEO gets the chance to ask you if youre carrying, why would you bother with pleading the fifth?

Don't know police protocol in this state. It it seems like some cops would ask to take the firearm for the duration of an interaction,

Such as this
http://youtu.be/Wlc_1nYWUMM

Qualified and trained personnel or not, I think you would understand that one would not want a stranger taking a loaded edc off their person.

Best case scenario:

"I understand you have an ltc, if you can just leave your hands on the wheel for me until we are done that would be great"

Not so ideal:

"I understand you have an ltc, can I see it please? Also are you carrying? If so can I take your gun off you until we're done?"

"No problem officer. Here's my ltc. Id prefer not to answer that question but I would be more than happy to keep my hands visible at all times"

Don't know if that is legal or if cops are even able to see that I am a ltc holder from the squad car/radio.




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Presentation of an LTC is only required when youre known to be carrying a firearm, theres an abundance of case law on that already.
There is? That would be awesome.
I thought the language of the law was plain that the license must be presented upon demand, although I was hard pressed to think of common situations where such a demand would be made outside of such knowledge.

So does this mean technically if an officer has reason to suspect/believe you might be/are carrying he still can't demand your LTC until he is certain?
 
Don't know police protocol in this state. It it seems lin tnke some cops would ask to take the firearm for the duration of an interaction,

Such as this
http://youtu.be/Wlc_1nYWUMM

Qualified and trained personnel or not, I think you would understand that one would not want a stranger taking a loaded edc off their person.

Best case scenario:

"I understand you have an ltc, if you can just leave your hands on the wheel for me until we are done that would be great"

Not so ideal:

"I understand you have an ltc, can I see it please? Also are you carrying? If so can I take your gun off you until we're done?"

"No problem officer. Here's my ltc. Id prefer not to answer that question but I would be more than happy to keep my hands visible at all times"

Don't know if that is legal or if cops are even able to see that I am a ltc holder from the squad car/radio.




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Not sure what state you hail from, but my advice? Play the game. Many LEO in MA invent their own protocols when dealing with a firearm, be it legally or illegally possessed. Some people have that desire to test the system, maybe get their name into National Geographic ( obscure Jaws refrence, I actually mean CASE LAW)

My advice?
You get stopped, then assess as you go.
LEO doesnt ask you if youre carrying? Dont offer up the fact that you are. Nothing worse than when you pull a guy over, and he hands you his drivers license and his LTC.
LEO asks if you are carrying? Answer truthfully and tell him/her where your roscoe is. Then proceed accordingly. The LEO wants to seize your Glock for the duration of the car stop? Fine. Ask him/her how to proceed, and do as they say. Is it right? No. Is it lawful? Not really. Is it worth making a stink? In my opinion no.
 
Not sure what state you hail from, but my advice? Play the game. Many LEO in MA invent their own protocols when dealing with a firearm, be it legally or illegally possessed. Some people have that desire to test the system, maybe get their name into National Geographic ( obscure Jaws refrence, I actually mean CASE LAW)

My advice?
You get stopped, then assess as you go.
LEO doesnt ask you if youre carrying? Dont offer up the fact that you are. Nothing worse than when you pull a guy over, and he hands you his drivers license and his LTC.
LEO asks if you are carrying? Answer truthfully and tell him/her where your roscoe is. Then proceed accordingly. The LEO wants to seize your Glock for the duration of the car stop? Fine. Ask him/her how to proceed, and do as they say. Is it right? No. Is it lawful? Not really. Is it worth making a stink? In my opinion no.

Good advice and actually something new to me in regards to offering the ltc with the drivers license.

Some guys actually recommend it as if the LEO would be flattered you offered it as it may seem like a "hey just trying to make your day easier so you know I'm a law abiding citizen"

There is? That would be awesome.
I thought the language of the law was plain that the license must be presented upon demand, although I was hard pressed to think of common situations where such a demand would be made outside of such knowledge.

So does this mean technically if an officer has reason to suspect/believe you might be/are carrying he still can't demand your LTC until he is certain?

I took "known to be carrying" as in the dispatcher notifies the cop that you are an ltc holder after running your plates or license. Once again I don't know if it works like that in MA.

What you're thinking of is if it is known in that moment because of printing, open carrying, accidental exposure etc.


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Quiet;431in re123 said:
There iive? That would be awesome.
I thought the language of the law was plain that the license must be presented upon demand, although I was hard pressed to think of common situations where such a demand would be made outside of such knowledge.

So does this mean technically if an officer has reason to suspect/believe you might be/are carrying he still can't demand your LTC until he is certain?

If an officer has PC to believe you are carrying, he can seize your firearm until you present a valid LTC, once the LTC is presented, the firearm is supposed to be given right back. Does it always work that way? Of course not, hence the case law.
You are correct in regards to presenting your LTC on demand, but I dont know of a scenario where tbe LEO just out of the blue demands an LTC. Usually this scenario is preceded by some story where someone saw a guy carrying a gun etc.
 
OP, sorry to derail this thread.

GPP seems to have good feedback and understands who handles what mail.

Public opinion is the ultimate motivator. Unfortunately I think in eastern MA at least, public opinion does not fare well for gun owners.


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jho;43isnt3128 said:
Good advice and actually something new to me in regards to offering the ltc with the drivers license.isnt
Some guys actually recommend it as if the LEO would be flattered you offered it as it may seem like a "hey just trying to make your day easier so you know I'm a law abiding citizen"


I took "known to be carrying" as in the dispatcher notifies the cop that you are an ltc holder after running your plates or license. Once again I don't know if it works like that in MA.

What you're thinking of is if it is known in that moment because of printing, open carrying, accidental exposure etc.


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" Flattered" isnt the word id use. Keep it in your wallet unless asked. If asked, do what the guy tells you to do, and if need be, complain about it later.
 
If an officer runs your license and sees that you have an LTC, why would he ever need to ask for it? At this point he knows that you have a current license “in effect” (269:10a-1) and the presentation of it is unnecessary except to harass.
 
Don't know police protocol in this state. It it seems like some cops would ask to take the firearm for the duration of an interaction,

Such as this
http://youtu.be/Wlc_1nYWUMM

Qualified and trained personnel or not, I think you would understand that one would not want a stranger taking a loaded edc off their person.

Best case scenario:

"I understand you have an ltc, if you can just leave your hands on the wheel for me until we are done that would be great"

Not so ideal:

"I understand you have an ltc, can I see it please? Also are you carrying? If so can I take your gun off you until we're done?"

"No problem officer. Here's my ltc. Id prefer not to answer that question but I would be more than happy to keep my hands visible at all times"

Don't know if that is legal or if cops are even able to see that I am a ltc holder from the squad car/radio.




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I don't let cops know I'm carrying unless there is a good reason to anymore. Too many of them out there feel that they're the only ones who should be carrying firearms and it turns into a PITA. When I still lived in Tennessee, I had been told (erroneously) that you had a duty to inform cops that you were carrying if you got pulled over. I had one cop decide he needed to take my pistol off me and onload it. He proceeded to jam the pistol so badly that it took me an hour of working on it to get it straightened out. Another cop was pissed because I was carrying too pistols and started mouthing off, being extremely aggressive in an attempt to escalate the situation. Thankfully another cop told him that A. He was personally carrying two pistols and B. I wasn't doing anything wrong by doing so, so MYOB....lol. I *never* had a good interaction with cops r/e carrying a firearm.....therefore I will never inform them that I'm carrying one in the absence of a duty to inform or direct questioning.

P.S. IMO, that guy in the video was an idiot for handing his gun to the cop. I would never handle a gun in front of a cop...it's asking for a problem to happen.
 
I have been stopped in my car and had cops ask me if there was anything they needed 'to know about' in the car. This has happened when I was legally carrying. My answer has always been 'no.'


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I seem to be missing something.

Let's say you're at the grocery store and you're carrying concealed. Someone in line thinks they see the butt of your gun or an imprint.

They call the police.

The police come.

(I don't know what happens. Seriously, what happens next?)

Another scenario:

Same grocery store. You're open carrying this time and the police show up after a call from a patron. You're obviously carrying. What happens?

This is all in MA BTW.
 
If the cops and the gun carrier aren't retarded, nothing. BTW this is MA, situation #1 never happens, cause people are oblivious.
 
Either way, there is not really all that much history of anything at all happening. I've seen it in person where an open carrying person is in a coffee shop owned by a cop, with his wife working the counter. Not a big deal. (This was on Worcester/Boylston line.)
 
If the cops and the gun carrier aren't retarded, nothing. BTW this is MA, situation #1 never happens, cause people are oblivious.

Fast forward. In either situation a policeman asks to see your LTC.

Isn't the proper response, "What crime do you suspect me of?" Since, carrying a firearm isn't in and of itself a crime worthy of a search?

ETA:
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Rob Boudrie
Another case that tangentially touches on the subject is Commonwealth v. Couture, where the court held that the mere observation that someone is carrying a gun, absent some other indicator of criminal activity, does not give police reason to believe that a crime is being committed or to stop/detain/search such a person. ...
 
If the cops and the gun carrier aren't retarded, nothing. BTW this is MA, situation #1 never happens, cause people are oblivious.

Pretty much. Except for those few people who habitually scan other people to see if they are carrying, people generally don't look to see if people are carrying. I've sat in rooms with people who were talking about how they'd feel nervous if someone in the room was carrying and had to work not to laugh. In one case, there were five of us and three of us were carrying.

If you think and plan ahead, dress appropriately, and have a quality holster, you'll walk amongst people and they'll never know you have a firearm on you.

- - - Updated - - -

From that same case, the police can not "ask" to see your license. They have to demand you produce it. You are also required to have your LTC on your person at all times and produce it on demand. Just as you are with a drivers license.


Fast forward. In either situation a policeman asks to see your LTC.

Isn't the proper response, "What crime do you suspect me of?" Since, carrying a firearm isn't in and of itself a crime worthy of a search?

ETA:
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Rob Boudrie
Another case that tangentially touches on the subject is Commonwealth v. Couture, where the court held that the mere observation that someone is carrying a gun, absent some other indicator of criminal activity, does not give police reason to believe that a crime is being committed or to stop/detain/search such a person. ...
 
...
1)
If you think and plan ahead, dress appropriately, and have a quality holster, you'll walk amongst people and they'll never know you have a firearm on you.

2)
From that same case, the police can not "ask" to see your license. They have to demand you produce it. You are also required to have your LTC on your person at all times and produce it on demand. Just as you are with a drivers license.

1) Do you remember when it used to be that you had to always have part of the pistol exposed? That was so you could not be hiding anything. Times have changed, I guess.

2) What if you don't have it? It is not that you are un-licensed. You are indeed licensed, but just do not have the license with you. Could they charge you with something for this? If so, with what charges? (MGL cite, please, to draw out all the legal weenies)
 
From that same case, the police can not "ask" to see your license. They have to demand you produce it. You are also required to have your LTC on your person at all times and produce it on demand. Just as you are with a drivers license.

From what I have read they can only demand you produce your LTC if they believe a crime has been committed and simply carrying a gun is not a crime, (or enough of a crime!)

(See quote from Rob Boudrie.)

In the matter of producing a driver's license, the cop is supposed to have stopped you for a violation and therefore you have to produce your DL.
 
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