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An FFL is in trouble for connecting AR upper and lower

They are saying this is a SBR? ( Note: I do not know what is or what isn't illegal)
Designed, developed, and tested to be the most versatile and innovative conversion kit on the market while complying with all laws and regulations.


MCK_MCKGEN1_CAAMCK_CAAUSA_CAA_MICROCONVERSIONKIT_GLOCK_GLOCK17_BLACK-2.jpg
 
So assembling an upper and a lower is “manufacturing”??? Really?
That would bring with it an implicit declaration that the stripped lower is not a firearm since, if it were, it would not require a serial number. Logically he was "improving" a regulated an 4473 required firearm, not "manufacturing" one.
 
So was the glock kit just a roni? Also dude could have got 07ffl and been totally fine (except for the glock thing) ?
Also the atf must have really threatened those employees to narc so hard.
 
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So was the glock kit just a roni? Also dude could have got 07ffl and been totally fine (except for the glock thing) ?
Also the atfust have really threatened those employees to narc so hard.

I’ve assumed the Roni’s showing up in the classifieds are fed posts for a while now.

Maybe I’m just pant shitting, it’s possible.
 
I’ve assumed the Roni’s showing up in the classifieds are fed posts for a while now.

Maybe I’m just pant shitting, it’s possible.
Had no idea they were an atf nono

Edit
Ctd still selling the roni. Anyone else have any idea what they are talking about? Or was it the fact that the dealer clipped the gun in the roni?
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“I know that an AR-15 is comprised of a lower receiver and upper receiver to make a fully functioning firearm,” the agent said in the complaint. “The main components of an AR-15 lower receiver are the body of the firearm, pistol grip, trigger mechanism, and butt stock of the firearm. The main components of an AR-upper receiver are the barrel, bolt assembly, and ejection port.

Man I got a Geissele ejection port on my rifle it's sweet.
 
“I know that an AR-15 is comprised of a lower receiver and upper receiver to make a fully functioning firearm,” the agent said in the complaint. “The main components of an AR-15 lower receiver are the body of the firearm, pistol grip, trigger mechanism, and butt stock of the firearm. The main components of an AR-upper receiver are the barrel, bolt assembly, and ejection port.

Man I got a Geissele ejection port on my rifle it's sweet.
Way to flex on us poors. I've got an Anderson muzzle.
 
This reads weird:

“Based on my training and conversations with other ATF personnel, I am aware that a Glock pistol placed inside a rifle conversion kit with an installed rifle stock is classified as a short barrel rifle and regulated by the National Firearms Act, which requires such firearms to be registered and subject to a tax,” an ATF agent wrote in the complaint. “In addition, when a person places a Glock pistol inside a rifle conversion kit, the person is manufacturing a firearm in an attempt to increase the value of the firearm, and thus, make a profit.”
What? LOL

“I know that an AR-15 is comprised of a lower receiver and upper receiver to make a fully functioning firearm,” the agent said in the complaint. “The main components of an AR-15 lower receiver are the body of the firearm, pistol grip, trigger mechanism, and butt stock of the firearm. The main components of an AR-upper receiver are the barrel, bolt assembly, and ejection port. Based on my training and experience, I am aware that the assembly of AR-style rifles from upper and lower receivers and other parts is considered manufacturing firearms.”

Finally .. what??
Awad and Adam’s Gun Shop owned licenses to sell firearms between February and July 2020
On Feb. 21, 2020, authorities spoke with a man who had worked at the gun shop from September 2018 to January 2019, according to court records.
 
I’m not sure it’s illegal unless a pistol brace makes it a rifle.. Which has yet to be determined? Either way if I was gonna run that set up, I wouldn’t have the pistol brace. I have a stock of this register the stock as an SBR? Because the pistol wouldn’t become an SBR without it being inserted?

But at the same time, I’m not sure if you can register that carrier with stock or brace as a firearm.

The entire thing is pretty retarded in my opinion…

I haven’t thought about the stuff in years, but can you mount a Glock pistol to the lower rail of an AR 15?

I only dealt with the M203 stuff, and I was going to grab one of those “key master”on your barrel shotguns
 
Clearly there are other, potentially real, issues but this is just wrong. As has been said, the lower is the firearm, everything else is just accessories.

“I know that an AR-15 is comprised of a lower receiver and upper receiver to make a fully functioning firearm,” the agent said in the complaint. “The main components of an AR-15 lower receiver are the body of the firearm, pistol grip, trigger mechanism, and butt stock of the firearm. The main components of an AR-upper receiver are the barrel, bolt assembly, and ejection port. Based on my training and experience, I am aware that the assembly of AR-style rifles from upper and lower receivers and other parts is considered manufacturing firearms.”
 
So assembling an upper and a lower is “manufacturing”??? Really?
Yes.

I lost a pre-healey AR as it was transferred from the prior owner who lost his license to the FFL complete, and then couldn't be transferred complete to me because of the Healey edict. It came into the shop as a full gun, it needed to leave as a full gun.

My option was to dig up a manufacturer (before I knew about the mill), pay on my dime to ship it, pay the manufacturing FFL costs, and either pick it up or ship it back.
I ended up shipping the gun out of state to a friend who graciously gave be a box of parts minus the receiver for Christmas that year.
 
it's safe to say, "the employee" is probably toxic in the michigan gun community and will need to find a new line of work elsewhere. i might suggest he become the official liaison here in massachusetts between firearm ffl's and ltc holders and the news media. you know, represent our interests with knowledgeable, in depth interviews for broadcast and print. instead of everyone yelling at once, just have one calming voice spreading the truth. or rather what they think is the truth.
 
Yes.

I lost a pre-healey AR as it was transferred from the prior owner who lost his license to the FFL complete, and then couldn't be transferred complete to me because of the Healey edict. It came into the shop as a full gun, it needed to leave as a full gun.

My option was to dig up a manufacturer (before I knew about the mill), pay on my dime to ship it, pay the manufacturing FFL costs, and either pick it up or ship it back.
I ended up shipping the gun out of state to a friend who graciously gave be a box of parts minus the receiver for Christmas that year.
That’s insane.

Federal law says that the lower is the firearm. I swap uppers around as needed - as long as i pay attention to pistol/rifle/other.
 
Yes.

I lost a pre-healey AR as it was transferred from the prior owner who lost his license to the FFL complete, and then couldn't be transferred complete to me because of the Healey edict. It came into the shop as a full gun, it needed to leave as a full gun.

My option was to dig up a manufacturer (before I knew about the mill), pay on my dime to ship it, pay the manufacturing FFL costs, and either pick it up or ship it back.
I ended up shipping the gun out of state to a friend who graciously gave be a box of parts minus the receiver for Christmas that year.
Or you could have purchased a lower and the parts instead of going through all that trouble to not even get a lower.

And why couldn't the local FFL do the same minus the receiver?
 
The FFL broke the law, black and white. Ignoring the bad ATF claims and assault rifle language in the article , assembling AR lowers into complete rifles is manufacturing and either needs to be done by the customer or a 07 FFL. A 07 FFL also needs to mark the completed rifle/pistol that they manufacture.

The work around is to sell complete lowers and complete uppers without doing the final assembly but letting the customer do it.

Receiver to rifle is manufacturing and requires marking
Rifle to receiver is manufacturing but requires no marking (you manufactured down, not up)

01 FFLs cannot split ARs or pistols into parts and sell the parts but 07 FFLs can. This is important. We all know of 01s doing frame splits and this will get them in big trouble when audited. There is an ongoing enforcement occurring with a FFL I know that has resulted in examining frames sent to him by 01s. This is bad for the 01s as they illegally manufactured pistols into frames.

A pistol can be manufactured into a rifle.
A rifle cannot be legally manufactured into a pistol unless the underlying receiver/frame was originally a pistol.

Offering no opinion on whether this is all reasonable, but it is the law.

You REALLY want a 07 and not a 01 if your zoning will permit the 07. But you also have to be aware of marking and reporting requirements. If you manufacture (up, not down) 50+ items, you need to pay an excise tax of ~11% on all items. 49 no tax, 50, tax and it goes back to item 1. So don’t go past 49 unless you are going way past 49.

Sucks for the guy arrested but he was clearly functioning as a manufacturer without a proper license and also failing to properly mark what he built.
 
The FFL broke the law, black and white. Ignoring the bad ATF claims and assault rifle language in the article , assembling AR lowers into complete rifles is manufacturing and either needs to be done by the customer or a 07 FFL. A 07 FFL also needs to mark the completed rifle/pistol that they manufacture.

The work around is to sell complete lowers and complete uppers without doing the final assembly but letting the customer do it.

Receiver to rifle is manufacturing and requires marking
Rifle to receiver is manufacturing but requires no marking (you manufactured down, not up)

01 FFLs cannot split ARs or pistols into parts and sell the parts but 07 FFLs can. This is important. We all know of 01s doing frame splits and this will get them in big trouble when audited. There is an ongoing enforcement occurring with a FFL I know that has resulted in examining frames sent to him by 01s. This is bad for the 01s as they illegally manufactured pistols into frames.

A pistol can be manufactured into a rifle.
A rifle cannot be legally manufactured into a pistol unless the underlying receiver/frame was originally a pistol.

Offering no opinion on whether this is all reasonable, but it is the law.

You REALLY want a 07 and not a 01 if your zoning will permit the 07. But you also have to be aware of marking and reporting requirements. If you manufacture (up, not down) 50+ items, you need to pay an excise tax of ~11% on all items. 49 no tax, 50, tax and it goes back to item 1. So don’t go past 49 unless you are going way past 49.

Sucks for the guy arrested but he was clearly functioning as a manufacturer without a proper license and also failing to properly mark what he built.
This.
 
The FFL broke the law, black and white. Ignoring the bad ATF claims and assault rifle language in the article , assembling AR lowers into complete rifles is manufacturing and either needs to be done by the customer or a 07 FFL. A 07 FFL also needs to mark the completed rifle/pistol that they manufacture.

The work around is to sell complete lowers and complete uppers without doing the final assembly but letting the customer do it.

Receiver to rifle is manufacturing and requires marking
Rifle to receiver is manufacturing but requires no marking (you manufactured down, not up)

01 FFLs cannot split ARs or pistols into parts and sell the parts but 07 FFLs can. This is important. We all know of 01s doing frame splits and this will get them in big trouble when audited. There is an ongoing enforcement occurring with a FFL I know that has resulted in examining frames sent to him by 01s. This is bad for the 01s as they illegally manufactured pistols into frames.

A pistol can be manufactured into a rifle.
A rifle cannot be legally manufactured into a pistol unless the underlying receiver/frame was originally a pistol.

Offering no opinion on whether this is all reasonable, but it is the law.

You REALLY want a 07 and not a 01 if your zoning will permit the 07. But you also have to be aware of marking and reporting requirements. If you manufacture (up, not down) 50+ items, you need to pay an excise tax of ~11% on all items. 49 no tax, 50, tax and it goes back to item 1. So don’t go past 49 unless you are going way past 49.

Sucks for the guy arrested but he was clearly functioning as a manufacturer without a proper license and also failing to properly mark what he built.

Seriously confused here.

From the article:
He told officials in June 2020 that he saw Awad manufacturing multiple firearms for sale. Awad would separately purchase AR lower receivers and AR upper receivers and assemble them at the shop, court records show.

“I know that an AR-15 is comprised of a lower receiver and upper receiver to make a fully functioning firearm,” the agent said in the complaint. “The main components of an AR-15 lower receiver are the body of the firearm, pistol grip, trigger mechanism, and butt stock of the firearm. The main components of an AR-upper receiver are the barrel, bolt assembly, and ejection port. Based on my training and experience, I am aware that the assembly of AR-style rifles from upper and lower receivers and other parts is considered manufacturing firearms.”

You stated above: "Receiver to rifle is manufacturing and requires marking"

**Please note that I'm addressing what are now somewhat historical conditions which are affected by the ATF's latest letter with reference to 80% kits**

I've purchased both 80% and marked lowers.

I've completed an 80% lower, assembled it and mated it with an upper. It's a "privately manufactured firearm" because the receiver wasn't completed when I started with it - it wasn't a firearm and when I was done, it was. But the upper has nothing to do with the transformation of the 80% lower to a "firearm", it's the completion of the pocket, the trigger slot and the horizontal holes for pins and safety. It required no marking because it was a "privately manufactured firearm" for my own use.


The marked lower required a 4473 and transfer through an FFL because it's a "firearm". When I purchased it, it was a "firearm". Finishing it and attaching an upper didn't change its definition or status.


So, let's look at the shop owner. I didn't see anything about 80% or "unmarked" lowers. If I read the article correctly, (and I quoted it above), he purchased marked lowers (which would have had to go through his bound book), perhaps installed lower parts kits, (the article isn't clear there), and attached uppers. The lowers were already defined as firearms, how does attaching an upper change anything?

I honestly don't see how that's "manufacturing". Can you "explain like I'm five"?

And - remember - this happened in Michigan - not Massachusetts. The lower is the firearm.
 
Seriously confused here.

From the article:
He told officials in June 2020 that he saw Awad manufacturing multiple firearms for sale. Awad would separately purchase AR lower receivers and AR upper receivers and assemble them at the shop, court records show.

“I know that an AR-15 is comprised of a lower receiver and upper receiver to make a fully functioning firearm,” the agent said in the complaint. “The main components of an AR-15 lower receiver are the body of the firearm, pistol grip, trigger mechanism, and butt stock of the firearm. The main components of an AR-upper receiver are the barrel, bolt assembly, and ejection port. Based on my training and experience, I am aware that the assembly of AR-style rifles from upper and lower receivers and other parts is considered manufacturing firearms.”

You stated above: "Receiver to rifle is manufacturing and requires marking"

**Please note that I'm addressing what are now somewhat historical conditions which are affected by the ATF's latest letter with reference to 80% kits**

I've purchased both 80% and marked lowers.

I've completed an 80% lower, assembled it and mated it with an upper. It's a "privately manufactured firearm" because the receiver wasn't completed when I started with it - it wasn't a firearm and when I was done, it was. But the upper has nothing to do with the transformation of the 80% lower to a "firearm", it's the completion of the pocket, the trigger slot and the horizontal holes for pins and safety. It required no marking because it was a "privately manufactured firearm" for my own use.


The marked lower required a 4473 and transfer through an FFL because it's a "firearm". When I purchased it, it was a "firearm". Finishing it and attaching an upper didn't change its definition or status.


So, let's look at the shop owner. I didn't see anything about 80% or "unmarked" lowers. If I read the article correctly, (and I quoted it above), he purchased marked lowers (which would have had to go through his bound book), perhaps installed lower parts kits, (the article isn't clear there), and attached uppers. The lowers were already defined as firearms, how does attaching an upper change anything?

I honestly don't see how that's "manufacturing". Can you "explain like I'm five"?

And - remember - this happened in Michigan - not Massachusetts. The lower is the firearm.
If I understand correctly the difference is your not an FFL, guy in the article is, different rules?
 
Seriously confused here.

From the article:
He told officials in June 2020 that he saw Awad manufacturing multiple firearms for sale. Awad would separately purchase AR lower receivers and AR upper receivers and assemble them at the shop, court records show.

“I know that an AR-15 is comprised of a lower receiver and upper receiver to make a fully functioning firearm,” the agent said in the complaint. “The main components of an AR-15 lower receiver are the body of the firearm, pistol grip, trigger mechanism, and butt stock of the firearm. The main components of an AR-upper receiver are the barrel, bolt assembly, and ejection port. Based on my training and experience, I am aware that the assembly of AR-style rifles from upper and lower receivers and other parts is considered manufacturing firearms.”

You stated above: "Receiver to rifle is manufacturing and requires marking"

**Please note that I'm addressing what are now somewhat historical conditions which are affected by the ATF's latest letter with reference to 80% kits**

I've purchased both 80% and marked lowers.

I've completed an 80% lower, assembled it and mated it with an upper. It's a "privately manufactured firearm" because the receiver wasn't completed when I started with it - it wasn't a firearm and when I was done, it was. But the upper has nothing to do with the transformation of the 80% lower to a "firearm", it's the completion of the pocket, the trigger slot and the horizontal holes for pins and safety. It required no marking because it was a "privately manufactured firearm" for my own use.


The marked lower required a 4473 and transfer through an FFL because it's a "firearm". When I purchased it, it was a "firearm". Finishing it and attaching an upper didn't change its definition or status.


So, let's look at the shop owner. I didn't see anything about 80% or "unmarked" lowers. If I read the article correctly, (and I quoted it above), he purchased marked lowers (which would have had to go through his bound book), perhaps installed lower parts kits, (the article isn't clear there), and attached uppers. The lowers were already defined as firearms, how does attaching an upper change anything?

I honestly don't see how that's "manufacturing". Can you "explain like I'm five"?

And - remember - this happened in Michigan - not Massachusetts. The lower is the firearm.
My response is purely federal law based and has nothing to do with any state laws or definitions. It also has nothing to do with the current 80% receivers, receiver kits, etc. This is all very basic and clear and not muddled by current events or political crap.

Federally we have a taxonomy with Firearm covering everything. Firearms can be different types with the obvious ones being rifle and pistol. If you decompose a rifle you usually have an object that is still a firearm called a receiver. A pistol maybe be made from a frame or receiver. The key concept here is that if you have a functioning rifle or pistol (or anything else) and decompose it, there is always some basic element that is the firearm until you decompose too far.

So if you are holding a receiver which is a firearm and marked, serialized, etc, you have a federally regulated item. Let’s say for this discussion it is Anderson AM15 stripper ar15 lower. If you take this and complete the lower by putting in a LPK and buffer and stock you still have a receiver and therefore what you have done is “gunsmithing”. The object has not changed state as it was a receiver and still is a receiver.

Now you attach a complete upper. The object you are holding is now a rifle. This is a change in taxonomy from a receiver to a rifle. This constitutes manufacturing. With the exception of manufacturing that is decomposing, you must mark the item when manufacturing. This is a FFL requirement we are talking about. Any manufacture must mark what they make. So you would keep all the markings you can but the FFL must add business name and business city and state. They must also record this manufacturing in their bound book.

If you turn a rifle into a receiver, this too is manufacturing. It must be recorded in your bound book. Because you are decomposing an existing object, there are no marking requirements as long as the resulting object is properly marked.

All manufacturing requires a proper FFL, an 07 in this case.

As a private party you have no requirements to mark or record what you make. So when you put an upper on a lower while it constitutes manufacturing, there are no federal laws that require marking, licenses, etc UNLESS you are doing it for profit. Private manufacturing for personal use is fine. Manufacturing for profit or for someone else even if not for profit requires a license.

You can help your friend build an AR. You can turn the stripped lower into a complete lower. You can build a complete upper. You cannot put an upper on a lower for someone else. Sure, this is very unlikely to get caught or cared about, but it constitutes manufacturing and you cannot do this for someone else without a license.
 
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