Anywhere I can get +P 9mm JHP?

[Coyote33]

Funny, but there sure have been a lot of .22LR hollow points sold. Those have a lot less power than 9mm, but they must mushroom, or people would not be buying them, right? The manufacturers wouldn't make them if they didn't work, and I doubt they are fooling that many people into buying something. Not quite getting it on how these don't expand. Isn't that the entire "point" of hollow points (pardon the pun)?

Edit to add:
Oh, reading another article brought me to this link:
Cor-Bon "Pow'R Ball" High Performance Ammunition

 

[Smash05]

Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +p or 127gr Win Ranger+p+. And I personally believe the upped pressure is more about reliable cycling than energy on target.

 

[Dr. CCW]

Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +p or 127gr Win Ranger+p+. And I personally believe the upped pressure is more about reliable cycling than energy on target.

Good ammo recommendations, but where are they sold? I disagree with your second sentence, without spending the next 10 minutes explaining why.

 

[jasons]

but where are they sold?

Interwebz works for me.

 

[Smash05]

You can disagree all you want. Ammo companies load to pressure, not to velocity. The 124 grain gold dot bullet has a very wide range of effectiveness, and most personal defense rounds penetrate and crush around the same amount, regardless of speed. For instance, you get the same expansion and penetration from a 147 gr Gold Dot as you do from a 124gr +p. One has more energy than the other, but neither does more actual damage.

For instance

 

[drgrant]

You can disagree all you want. Ammo companies load to pressure, not to velocity. The 124 grain gold dot bullet has a very wide range of effectiveness, and most personal defense rounds penetrate and crush around the same amount, regardless of speed. For instance, you get the same expansion and penetration from a 147 gr Gold Dot as you do from a 124gr +p. One has more energy than the other, but neither does more actual damage.

For instance

View attachment 28137

The real reason for +P is that it helps short barreled autos get the bullet into the "expansion window" of velocity, where the bullets will more reliably expand.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Funny, but there sure have been a lot of .22LR hollow points sold. Those have a lot less power than 9mm, but they must mushroom, or people would not be buying them, right? The manufacturers wouldn't make them if they didn't work, and I doubt they are fooling that many people into buying something. Not quite getting it on how these don't expand. Isn't that the entire "point" of hollow points (pardon the pun)?

With 22 LRs people buy HPs because they pay nothing extra for them. They probably kill squirrels and the like better, too...

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Thanks, Mike. What do you use for carry ammo?

I use Speer GHDP +P 124gr or Win Ranger RA9TA 127 +P+ for 9mm. Speer 124 std pressure tests well, too. I just get the +P because the price is the same and it has more punt for no extra cost.

I also would not hesitate to use the Fed HST 124 gr loadings but they seem to be made of unobtainium.

-Mike

 

[jasons]

I use Speer GHDP +P 124gr or Win Ranger RA9TA 127 +P+ for 9mm. Speer 124 std pressure tests well, too. I just get the +P because the price is the same and it has more punt for no extra cost.

I also would not hesitate to use the Fed HST 124 gr loadings but they seem to be made of unobtainium.

-Mike

The shape of the Fed HST doesn't seem to lend itself to easy chambering in some guns. My Sigs will chamber it fine, but the lip of the point (for lack of a better description) tends to hang up on the feed ramp on my PM9.

I like the Speer bullets because they have more of a rounded "edge" and they seem to chamber more smoothly.

 

[drgrant]

The shape of the Fed HST doesn't seem to lend itself to easy chambering in some guns. My Sigs will chamber it fine, but the lip of the point (for lack of a better description) tends to hang up on the feed ramp on my PM9.

I like the Speer bullets because they have more of a rounded "edge" and they seem to chamber more smoothly.

Hmm, that reminds me of the problem I used to have with the Barnes Copper Hex (Taurus/PMC, and now CorBon) .45s and 1911s... the edge of the JHP was too sharp, and when it hit the ramp everything just ground to a halt.

-Mike

 

[Mark from MA]

Recently switched to 9mm for carry. Im trying to find hst but best I could find was the 124 grain pdxi at wm. cabelas seems to carry the most brands next time I'm down there I'll search for 147 hst +p

 

[brokenwire]

try south shore firearms
they carry a large selection

 

[drgrant]

Rileys in Hooksett NH always has most of the GDHP lineup. They used to have lots of 50 round boxes but not any longer, sadly, all I've seen is the 20s... better than nothing, though.

-Mike

Just wanted to bump this.... last time I was at Rileys (the sat afternoon after I made the quoted post) they were wiped out of decent GDHPs. You will want to call them before making the trip.

-Mike

 

[Navy Moose]

They've been blown out of HST for a long time now. I haven't seen any the past 3 times I've been there.

I don't see much HST anywhere. You used to see it at the gun shows once in awhile but that has gone dry, too.

-Mike

If you lived in a Free State, you could order HST from Ammunition To Go. I ordered a box of 50rds for around $35, including shipping.

 

[Dr. CCW]

I picked up some Cor Bon 9mm +P JHPs from Collector's on Saturday. 20 rounds for $25. Not much in the way of any ammo bargains there. Seems like Four Seasons has them beat on most calibers by a few bucks per 50 pack of Federal JHP range ammo, unless you are comparing Federal to Collector's CCI Blazers at the same price.

 

[sschevy]

Ding ding ding. We have a winner. Thanks!

I was there yesterday and they also had cor bon and winchester PDX1 +P 9MM on the shelf....Gotta love CCG, everything 4 seasons has for the same price, or at this point cheaper, minus the obnoxious crowds and counter help

 

[David White]

I didn't say regardless. I simply said it very common to see actual shooting where JHP goes thru. The OP was asking for +P, which only makes the bullet MORE LIKELY to go thru than standard ammo since there is more energy that needs to be dumped. I see no reason to use +P JHP if your concern is over penetration. In general 9mm has been show to continue thru the target regardless of bullet shape. If you look at the actual real world data you'll find it goes thru way more than half the time.

Does using JHP lessen the chance of over penetration? Yes. Is it a very large percentage change that makes over penetration less than a 50% chance? No. I'm just clarifying that you should always expect your round to go thru and be aware of what is beyond your target.

I can't find it right now, but there was an in depth study by NYPD on FMJ and JHP over penetration and collateral damage. They have settled quite a few lawsuits over bystanders being hit by JHP 9mm that went thru suspects and hit others, sometimes resulting in death.

How old are you? Do you watch a lot of "cop shows"? Nine mil in ALL JHP configurations are proven stoppers. Do you seriously think that nine mil would be so popular if most of them just kept "flying through" their targets? I am astounded to hear you post such ludicrous drivil! Have you been shooting for longer than three weeks?

 

[David White]

Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +p or 127gr Win Ranger+p+. And I personally believe the upped pressure is more about reliable cycling than energy on target.

Sorry, +p rounds deliver more energy on and into the target, that is the intention. Bullets don't get a plus p rating to "help cycle your slide". Check ballistics and compare standard and plus p rounds of the same make and you will so higher velocity and energy.

 

[Smash05]

Sorry, +p rounds deliver more energy on and into the target, that is the intention. Bullets don't get a plus p rating to "help cycle your slide". Check ballistics and compare standard and plus p rounds of the same make and you will so higher velocity and energy.

That is certainly a result, but bullet design no longer requires high pressure and speed to expand reliably. Energy from a pistol bullet does little more than gain a bit more expansion than usual in modern bullet.

 

[drgrant]

How old are you? Do you watch a lot of "cop shows"? Nine mil in ALL JHP configurations are proven stoppers. Do you seriously think that nine mil would be so popular if most of them just kept "flying through" their targets? I am astounded to hear you post such ludicrous drivil! Have you been shooting for longer than three weeks?

Do you really have to be a dick? Nothing he said was wrong. You need to go back and take wound ballistics 101, or something like that.

The reality is any handgun round worth using, regardless of caliber, is probably capable of sailing right through your target. The FBI minimum standard for JHP's is like 12" of penetration in balgel- which means if you shoot a crackhead with it it will probably go right through.

Ironically enough though I think +P JHPs might actually penetrate slightly less (because the extra velocity promotes rapid expansion, which in turn slows the bullet down faster in the target, because of the "drag" placed on the projectile as it moves through flesh) but most of the good ones will still beat the 12" spec, so it's not even really a huge consideration. The biggest advantages to +P are more juice and better velocity out of guns with shorter barrels.

The reality is potential over-penetration is par for the course with anything worth shooting at a bad guy. There is no way around this, at least not within the conventional realm of ammunition design.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

Sorry, +p rounds deliver more energy on and into the target, that is the intention.

Again, you keep showing your ignorance on this topic. Study wound ballistics and how JHPs actually work. Maybe that's what the marketing says but if you talk to the guys that actually design the bullets, +P's greatest "design intent" is to promote full expansion of the hollow point by keeping the velocity of the bullet within the target window.

Energy dump theory is pretty much a myth, at least in terms of most mainstream handgun bullets. Things don't start to get interesting with handgun energy values until you crank them way up. (EG, northward of 10mm Auto even.... )

-Mike

 

[M1911]

The reality is potential over-penetration is par for the course with anything worth shooting at a bad guy.

This.

 

[David White]

The worst thing to happen to ammo and ballistics was the FBI idiot test. I agree, no one is twelve inches thick. Ballistic Gel is calibrated to the density of pig muscle as it closely resembles human tissue.
The FBI failed big time in tactics during the big MIAMI SHOOTOUT. The after effect was the selection of the ten mil, which of course was way too hot to handle by your average Gman. Then came the wunder forty to save face.
No SD round for civilians will be called upon to penetrate to the depths that Law Enforcement will face.
I keep one magazine loaded with Magtech 115 +p and the other with Golden Saber 124 +p, just in case.
Seeing as more than 80% of LEO's MISS their target, I don't see why they need to follow the FBI's lead with deep penetrating ammo but hey, that's just me talking.
As for wounding studies and ballistics, I have been around for almost thirty years in the industry. I know what works and what doesn't. I know for a FACT that my nine mils will not "go through" someone, period. The only thing to watch for are the missed shots, they are more common than through and through shots.

 

[drgrant]

The worst thing to happen to ammo and ballistics was the FBI idiot test.

I completely and vehemently disagree- it resulted in vastly better performing handgun ammunition being created as a result.

There is a reason that 12" + of penetration is required. If you hit a BG at a bad angle things start to stack pretty quickly, and all other things being equal, you want something that has the capability of always reaching vitals.

As for wounding studies and ballistics, I have been around for almost thirty years in the industry. I know what works and what doesn't. I know for a FACT that my nine mils will not "go through" someone, period.

The magtech, maybe (assuming the JHPs actually open, which given that brand, they probably don't!) but the Rem GS's certainly will, I would bet anything on it. (They pass the FBI test!) Of course, this is ignoring things like bullets getting stuck in bones, etc, or bullets traveling up or down extremities, etc. (Have you ever seen those NDs where guys shoot themselves in the leg? About half of those NDs, the guy finds the bullet on the floor somewhere eventually. )

I guess my point is, is there is no such thing as bullet that will reliably NOT exit a
target, Or, at least nothing on the market worth using (in my opinion) will fit within those constraints.

-Mike

 

[David White]

Again, you keep showing your ignorance on this topic. Study wound ballistics and how JHPs actually work. Maybe that's what the marketing says but if you talk to the guys that actually design the bullets, +P's greatest "design intent" is to promote full expansion of the hollow point by keeping the velocity of the bullet within the target window.

Energy dump theory is pretty much a myth, at least in terms of most mainstream handgun bullets. Things don't start to get interesting with handgun energy values until you crank them way up. (EG, northward of 10mm Auto even.... )

-Mike

Hey, do me a favor bright boy! Instead of calling me wrong, how about you post a link to your heavy duty "ballistics" testing and prove me wrong. You know, an actual study to back up your rhetoric. Make it a good one, preferably new as I am familiar with most of them.
Thanks bud!

 

[xtry51]

How old are you? Do you watch a lot of "cop shows"? Nine mil in ALL JHP configurations are proven stoppers. Do you seriously think that nine mil would be so popular if most of them just kept "flying through" their targets? I am astounded to hear you post such ludicrous drivil! Have you been shooting for longer than three weeks?

We'll start with I'm a mechanical engineer and have over 10k rounds through just my MP9. So what exactly are you credentials?

- - - Updated - - -

Hey, do me a favor bright boy! Instead of calling me wrong, how about you post a link to your heavy duty "ballistics" testing and prove me wrong. You know, an actual study to back up your rhetoric. Make it a good one, preferably new as I am familiar with most of them.
Thanks bud!

Wow. Somebody needs a hug.

 

[Ducttape4all]

Cabela's In Maine had those Zombie Max rounds, and if they can stop a Zombie they should do the trick...

 

[drgrant]

Hey, do me a favor bright boy! Instead of calling me wrong, how about you post a link to your heavy duty "ballistics" testing and prove me wrong. You know, an actual study to back up your rhetoric. Make it a good one, preferably new as I am familiar with most of them.
Thanks bud!

It's all out there for you to read. I'm not about to reinvent the wheel for your sake. Go to tacticalforums.com and go in the ballistics section. Doc Gary Roberts and other people that know what they are talking about post in there on a regular basis. Go yell at them. Most of the guys in there like DocGKR and others have forgotten more than most of us will ever know about wound ballistics from small arms. None of them are going to tell you that a light penetrator is a good handgun round.

If consistent under-penetration was a good thing then everyone would be carrying a .380 or a .38 SPL with really light bullets, because "that would be enough. " It clearly isn't.

FWIW NYPD has at least had a couple of cops wounded by shoot-throughs in the past 20 years, so don't sit there and try to tell us it doesn't happen with 9mm. It certainly can and does. Most of the time people just get lucky because there isn't a good guy
behind the target when the shooting happens, or a bullet gets stuck in bone or gets sent off course inside the body by something.

I'm done here, I shouldn't have ever posted in this thread. At some level these threads turn into religious discussions between the energy dump myth crew (which is like the church of scientology, IMO) and the church of real wound ballistics.

-Mike

 

[David White]

There is a reason that 12" + of penetration is required. If you hit a BG at a bad angle things start to stack pretty quickly, and all other things being equal, you want something that has the capability of always reaching vitals.


-Mike

You do realize that it is 12+ inches of penetration AFTER defeating obstacles, oh.... like windshield glass, automobile doors, refrigerators etc? Civies don't require that kind of penetration and you should know that. You got sold a bunch of crap, just like the rest of us.
I don't see any links to support your statements position though. You keep telling me to "read up on ballistics" but you aren't posting any links to back up your assumptions.
I wait a little longer to see if you can impress me with facts though (tick tock).

 

[David White]

By the way, unless you live under a rock, you will notice that there are quite a large number of people who carry .380's as their only gun. With rounds like critical defense, Golen Saber 102grn and a few others, the ole .380 is making quite the comeback!
I have read Dr. Roberts article. It is a reference guide for LEO's, not for civilian defensive needs.
I'll stick with Mas's recommended loads (115 +p's) for now and let you play cop with your slower, heavy bullets.