AR parts -- what is your metric for value vs. quality?

thormx538

thormx538

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Figured I'd start this to expand the discussion from the recent thread in the member's forum, and keep it out of that thread. (http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/257926-BCM-sale)

It seems like people generally agree on certain brands being better and worthy of paying more than other brands. Colt, LaRue, Noveske, etc.. What do you guys use for a metric in your decisions? Is it based on brand loyalty and personal experience? Reviews/opinions from forums/Youtube? Detailed comparison of the specs/testing methods? Inside knowledge of the manufacturing process? Expected resale value? Customer service/warranty? Test/proof groups from the manufacturer?

When it comes to match grade barrels, I understand there is a difference between brands, and that years of R&D and experience have allowed the high-end manufacturers to create better barrels than their competition (different types of rifling, chamber dimensions, crown, lapping, etc..). I also understand that you tend to get what you pay for with triggers when it comes to durability and trigger feel. I'm referring to duty style weapons and parts in this thread though, not bench guns. Like, what about a Colt 6920 makes it $400 better than a PSA Premium? Or $250 better than a Windham? What makes the BCM BCG $50 better than a PSA one that underwent the same HP/MP testing?

Personally, when I buy parts, I don't really care about the manufacturer, which is why most of my ARs are mutts. I look for things like using the proper material (9310/C158 for bolts, CHF steel on barrels, etc..) HP and MP testing (individual vs. batch drives cost), forum reviews, current customer service and fit/finish reviews, and price. For things like rails, I'll take weight, installation method, size, style, etc.. into account. I'll buy the cheapest part that meets of of those criteria, and it's a sliding scale build to build (for example, if I'm going to build a trunk gun that's going to be spray painted, I don't really care about cosmetic blems, etc..)

I know it's hard to convey tone over the internet, so I just wanted to say I'm not being sarcastic or antagonistic in starting this thread -- I'm just generally curious to see the decision process people use when buying the more expensive parts, and to see if there is something I'm overlooking.
 
Sort of depends on the part for me. For example I'll happily pay a premium for an excellent barrel from a reputable company or a great trigger. Other stuff I'm fine with as long as the holes mostly line up.

The service rifles that I compete with have Krieger barrels and Geissele triggers. Those two parts alone cost more than the rest of the rifle combined.
 
I view my carbines are fighting guns. If they ever need to be brought into service and my life depends on them then I want to know that I've bought something that I can rely on. I buy BCM

There are many manufacturers out there that make parts and guns for the masses to capitalize on the platforms popularity. There are also those who manufacture for the high end market and then there are those who build fighting guns. The major differences I've seen have been around quality control, tolerances, metalurgy and attention to details in manufacturing. These variances result in issues with gas port size, improperly staked carrier keys, prematurely failed bolts, head space issues, and issues with feeding, ejection and accuracy. Fighting guns are built correctly and don't have any of these issues
 
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For a rifle that I might have to trust my life to, I go with mfgs that have a known reputation for quality and not cutting corners. BCM, Noveske, etc. For a backup/handout rifle, just due to the economics of it, I might use some bargain stuff. But even for those I'm choosing parts for which they tell me what they're made out of and what testing was done.
 
exodious said:
For a rifle that I might have to trust my life to, I go with mfgs that have a known reputation for quality and not cutting corners.
Click to expand...

This.

I have several "mut" rifles already, and while they work well and run fine, I am past the point of hobby building for anything I may need to depend on. I have an LMT upper for my shorty, and I have been wanting a quality 16" upper for my go to rifle. BCM was really the only company offering what I was looking for, and a great price too.

- - - Updated - - -

Knicks said:
And hats that I'll never wear
Click to expand...

I'm pumped for a new BCM hat, I trashed my last one.
 
jasons said:
Sort of depends on the part for me. For example I'll happily pay a premium for an excellent barrel from a reputable company or a great trigger. Other stuff I'm fine with as long as the holes mostly line up.

The service rifles that I compete with have Krieger barrels and Geissele triggers. Those two parts alone cost more than the rest of the rifle combined.
Click to expand...

This exactly.
Except I use Criterion barrels (a division of Krieger). I have found them to be excellent barrels in every catagory. But Geissele triggers all the way. Besides the Geisseles I've got ARs with both Jewel and Accuracy Speaks triggers so I actually have quality triggers to compare them to. The Geisseles are my favorite.
 
edmorseiii said:
This.

I have several "mut" rifles already, and while they work well and run fine, I am past the point of hobby building for anything I may need to depend on. I have an LMT upper for my shorty, and I have been wanting a quality 16" upper for my go to rifle. BCM was really the only company offering what I was looking for, and a great price too.
Click to expand...

I have one BCM upper that I bought complete, and one that I built myself with BCM or other parts sourced from BCM or similar mfgs. I trust both of them. Some day I might own an AR built entirely by one mfg, but it hasn't happened yet...

- - - Updated - - -

The one area that IMO you should never skimp on is the BCG. It is the heart of your rifle. A shitty barrel might have poor accuracy, but at least with a good BCG it will run.
 
When you guys are getting barrels & BCG's do you get them from separate manufacturers or from the same?

When gotten from separate people have you had any issues?
 
Beansie said:
When you guys are getting barrels & BCG's do you get them from separate manufacturers or from the same?

When gotten from separate people have you had any issues?
Click to expand...

I try to buy the bolt and barrel as a matched set, but either way I always check headspacing on my own. (99% of the time it's fine, but you never know until you check.)
 
OK, to expand on what seems like a common thought so far -- the idea that certain companies have earned their reputation based on years of putting out products without issues.

According to everything you read online, most companies sub out a lot of their machining to larger machining operations like CMT, Aero, and AO. DD and FN are the two biggest hammer forged barrel makers in the US for ARs. Say Company A and Company B both using parts made by CMT (for example, Stag and Colt). Is the implication that Colt holds CMT to a tighter spec on the drawing than Stag does, and that even the raw materials they start with will be more thoroughly inspected than the Stag stuff, as opposed to CMT just grabbing two chunks of aluminum from their warehouse and running the same CNC program on the machine twice and giving one part to Colt and one to Stag?

I've never really gotten a straight/definitive answer on that (which is most likely due to not really knowing anyone on the inside, and manufacturers not wanting to share competitive advantages), but I think that is the important distinction, whether or not there truly is value added in actual inspection/QC steps. I deal with machined parts a lot at work, and know that without proper and detailed inspection of the parts, you can't guarantee two will be identical when they come off the machine, or that the program is correct. But once the program is verified, the tools are in spec, and you have a competent operator at the helm, you can create very repeatable results within a reasonable spec. We normally spec things to +/- 0.1mm at work, and parts arrive in spec the vast majority of the time (they are not inspected by our machine shop). The stuff we make is more difficult to machine than something like an upper or lower, for example.

I remember seeing a pissing match over on ARF between the guy from Spikes Tactical claiming PSA didn't proof test barrels, and PSA ended up showing their proof loads and the set-up.
 
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Beansie said:
When you guys are getting barrels & BCG's do you get them from separate manufacturers or from the same?

When gotten from separate people have you had any issues?
Click to expand...

I'm sure 7.62x39 will disagree with me ([smile]), but I have never headspace checked an AR. The headspace is set when the barrel extension is set in to the barrel. As long as that part was machined in spec and checked by the manufacturer, and your bolt is in spec, the headspace of the rifle will be in spec.
 
thormx538 said:
Figured I'd start this to expand the discussion from the recent thread in the member's forum, and keep it out of that thread. (http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/257926-BCM-sale)

It seems like people generally agree on certain brands being better and worthy of paying more than other brands. Colt, LaRue, Noveske, etc.. What do you guys use for a metric in your decisions? Is it based on brand loyalty and personal experience? Reviews/opinions from forums/Youtube? Detailed comparison of the specs/testing methods? Inside knowledge of the manufacturing process? Expected resale value? Customer service/warranty? Test/proof groups from the manufacturer?

When it comes to match grade barrels, I understand there is a difference between brands, and that years of R&D and experience have allowed the high-end manufacturers to create better barrels than their competition (different types of rifling, chamber dimensions, crown, lapping, etc..). I also understand that you tend to get what you pay for with triggers when it comes to durability and trigger feel. I'm referring to duty style weapons and parts in this thread though, not bench guns. Like, what about a Colt 6920 makes it $400 better than a PSA Premium? Or $250 better than a Windham? What makes the BCM BCG $50 better than a PSA one that underwent the same HP/MP testing?

Personally, when I buy parts, I don't really care about the manufacturer, which is why most of my ARs are mutts. I look for things like using the proper material (9310/C158 for bolts, CHF steel on barrels, etc..) HP and MP testing (individual vs. batch drives cost), forum reviews, current customer service and fit/finish reviews, and price. For things like rails, I'll take weight, installation method, size, style, etc.. into account. I'll buy the cheapest part that meets of of those criteria, and it's a sliding scale build to build (for example, if I'm going to build a trunk gun that's going to be spray painted, I don't really care about cosmetic blems, etc..)

I know it's hard to convey tone over the internet, so I just wanted to say I'm not being sarcastic or antagonistic in starting this thread -- I'm just generally curious to see the decision process people use when buying the more expensive parts, and to see if there is something I'm overlooking.
Click to expand...

Personal experience for me. My BCM performs flawlessly, unlike my experience with some PSA stuff. If I'm going to bet my life on a rifle I pick up my BCM period.
 
thormx538 said:
As long as that part was machined in spec and checked by the manufacturer, and your bolt is in spec, the headspace of the rifle will be in spec.
Click to expand...

Yes, but how do you know the parts are in spec? Blind faith?
 
xtry51 said:
Personal experience for me. My BCM performs flawlessly, unlike my experience with some PSA stuff. If I'm going to bet my life on a rifle I pick up my BCM period.
Click to expand...

I'm having a real hard time not picking up one of the BCM complete uppers right now, but even at the discount it's more than I wanted to spend. I looked as Wilson Combat and with an on sale BCG from them, everything included it would be the same cost in the end as the BCM upper.

I still have a lot more research to do on barrels, etc, but the BCM deal is really, really hard to pass up right now.
 
Beansie said:
I still have a lot more research to do on barrels, etc, but the BCM deal is really, really hard to pass up right now.
Click to expand...

BCM makes good stuff. You could do a lot worse for sure.
 
jasons said:
Yes, but how do you know the parts are in spec? Blind faith?
Click to expand...

ISO 900 company's do no inspect every part. Out of all the shops I've worked in and Cnc shops are very much like this . You don't Inspect every part.
I forget the numbers but parts in high volume are checked in batches . Like 1 or 10 out of 100 are inspected .

But you also have to think of this way . The barrel could be cut deeper but in spec and you toss a bolt leaning to one way but in spec you head space can be too big but both parts in spec .
Few guys have posted they got bolts from
Xyz that the head space only checked out good one one barrel they had out of 3 or 4 other uppers.


Plus if have random joe off the street working as qc . You don't think he might have a bad day and just let stuff through with out really checking . I've caught guys who are doing this on parts that every one we make needs to be inspected tested and then all dims and rear results are written down since they hold toxic heavy metals . We have to shit this info to the dot, so the company's we sell to can move theses chemicals on the open road.
Watched them just write random info on the sheets so we could ship them out the door.
 
exodious said:
For a rifle that I might have to trust my life to, I go with mfgs that have a known reputation for quality and not cutting corners. BCM, Noveske, etc. For a backup/handout rifle, just due to the economics of it, I might use some bargain stuff. But even for those I'm choosing parts for which they tell me what they're made out of and what testing was done.
Click to expand...

Bingo.

I trust my life to a Green Mountain barrel and a Spike's BCG which I clean regularly. [grin]
 
jasons said:
Yes, but how do you know the parts are in spec? Blind faith?
Click to expand...

Effectively, yeah.

I wouldn't trust an ICE Arms BCG and ICE barrel to headspace properly, blindly. Nor would I a Blackthorne, Hesse, Vulcan, etc. Too many horror stories online about them. I wouldn't trust an unknown manufacturer either, unless they can demonstrate things were tested properly.

However, I do trust a myriad of other manufacturers to put out in-spec products (Stag, Rock River, Colt, BCM, CMMG, PSA, Spikes, Sig, DD, etc...). I posed a similar question in a thread months ago on headspacing -- do you headspace check a rifle you bought complete, or do you trust the manufacturer to have tested it? Headspace is checked when the extension is pressed in, so I trust that it was done properly at that step.
 
thormx538 said:
Effectively, yeah.

I wouldn't trust an ICE Arms BCG and ICE barrel to headspace properly, blindly. Nor would I a Blackthorne, Hesse, Vulcan, etc. Too many horror stories online about them. I wouldn't trust an unknown manufacturer either, unless they can demonstrate things were tested properly.

However, I do trust a myriad of other manufacturers to put out in-spec products (Stag, Rock River, Colt, BCM, CMMG, PSA, Spikes, Sig, DD, etc...). I posed a similar question in a thread months ago on headspacing -- do you headspace check a rifle you bought complete, or do you trust the manufacturer to have tested it? Barrels are checked when the extension is pressed in, so I trust that it was done properly at that step.
Click to expand...

If I buy a complete upper w/BCG from a reputable mfg (not just Joe AR15 on the internets slapping parts together), and I didn't have gauges, then I would probably trust it to be in spec.

If I buy the parts separately, I am going to test it.

As I happen to have gauges, I test them all. I wasn't always that way, but I smartened up and bought gauges. I did actually find an improperly headspaced bolt on a build I did and contacted the mfg, who tested it and confirmed that it was slightly out of spec, and sent me a new bolt which tested out fine.
 
thormx538 said:
I wouldn't trust an ICE Arms BCG and ICE barrel to headspace properly, blindly. Nor would I a Blackthorne, Hesse, Vulcan, etc. Too many horror stories online about them. I wouldn't trust an unknown manufacturer either, unless they can demonstrate things were tested properly.

do you headspace check a rifle you bought complete, or do you trust the manufacturer to have tested it? Headspace is checked when the extension is pressed in, so I trust that it was done properly at that step.
Click to expand...

So how do you decide who to trust and who not to trust? Trust everybody or trust nobody, You can't have it both ways. Do you think that a rifle from any one of the mfgs you mentioned leaves the factory without the HS being checked?

You seem to gloss over the fact that the extension is only half of the equation. Without the bolt you know nothing. The fact that you have not run into one that did not HS correctly means nothing, except that you have not built enough yet. As myself and others have stated repeatedly, 95%+ will HS correctly. I have only run into two ARs that did not.

Listen, You do whatever you want, I couldn't care less. But for you to post on a forum that HS doesn't need to be checked is just plain irresponsible.
 
exodious said:
As I happen to have gauges, I test them all. I wasn't always that way, but I smartened up and bought gauges. I did actually find an improperly headspaced bolt on a build I did and contacted the mfg, who tested it and confirmed that it was slightly out of spec, and sent me a new bolt which tested out fine.
Click to expand...


PArdon my newb question, but how do I know I'm getting the right ones? The $25 options I see after a quick google will be fine, no?
 
Was ready to throw my AR in the trash. It would not cycle consistently or fire the round in the chamber.

found out it was the cheap buffer detent spring that broke.

Stay away from cheap LPK's....

Replaced with quality parts and she runs like a champ now.
 
Beansie said:
PArdon my newb question, but how do I know I'm getting the right ones? The $25 options I see after a quick google will be fine, no?
Click to expand...

Getting the right gauges? All my ARs are 5.56 chambers, so I have 5.56 gauges. I have a go and no-go gauge. I didn't think the field gauge would be useful. IIRC I have Clymer gauges from Brownells and they're $40 each unless you have a discount.
 
jasons said:
Sort of depends on the part for me. For example I'll happily pay a premium for an excellent barrel from a reputable company or a great trigger. Other stuff I'm fine with as long as the holes mostly line up.

The service rifles that I compete with have Krieger barrels and Geissele triggers. Those two parts alone cost more than the rest of the rifle combined.
Click to expand...

this, and add a quality bcg.
I have gotten bargain ones and had problems that could point to a number of issues, but changing the bolt carrier and [checking for head spacing after]
solved it.
 

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