AR upper: is it worth saving up for a gas piston upper?

[dwarven1]

So I've been doing a little reading, and I've come across the concept of the "gas piston" upper. Apparently they shoot much cleaner and some articles I've read claim them to be more reliable.

They're also much more expensive! see Exhibit A.

So... should I start saving? Or should I start worrying about Hitlery banning EBRs on Jan 22nd, 2009 and get an upper - any upper - as soon as I get my hands on the lower?

Any thoughts, comments, etc, about the technology? Anyone out there actually HAVE one of these and want to comment about it?

Thanks!

 

[Supermoto]

A properly built DI upper will run just fine, save your cash for ammo.
Find an upper based on what you plan to use the rifle for.

 

[z0mbi]

I figure if it's good enough for the Military, it's more than good enough for me. I'll get a gas piston upper at some point, but for now they're rare and expensive so I'll get a regular system.

 

[Wildweasel]

I wouldn't worry about it the standard gas system works well. that said my Bushy m17s bullpup has a gas piston. much easier to clean. As more vendors come out with them the price will drop and if you want one then pick one up.

 

[icyclefar]

A well built conventional AR upper, as said above, is all you need.

IMO a gas piston upper is a solution to a problem that does not exist.

 

[MassMark]

Amen to the above - a neat niche gadget that poses no real useful purpose to the recreational and even professional user that justify the cost, (IMHO). As more companies produce them, the cost will drift from the stratosphere - I'd hold out until then if I were you.

 

[LoginName]

Add my name to the old school club.

The current gas impingement system has worked fine for over 40 years now. Why try to fix/complicate something that's not broken?

(Colt tried a piston system in the early 60's but abandoned the idea when it was realized that the idea really wasn't needed).

Also... consider that a gas piston adds more moving parts to the platform, and that all the gas piston uppers are proprietary, and there is no industry standard. If you break, lose a part (or it wears out), you could be screwed trying to find a replacement.

IMHO, gas piston uppers are just another fad/must have for AR owners.

 

[Dirtypacman]

I agree with others - I was looking into the same thing and found the cost could not be justified for my current need... I have a bushy that has seen easily over 1200 rounds without failure. I would not expect my new build to have any issues.

 

[MassMark]

If it helps you any Ross, I shot a conservative estimate of 50,000 rounds through my Colt and never, ever, (did I say ever?) cleaned the gas tube out. It also only had 2 memorable failures, (both involving Wolf). Sure there were other minor failures, but all were easily and instantly cleared. I'm 99% sure that the last 15,000 rounds I fired I didn't clean the gun beyond removing and wiping down the bolt, running a patch, solvent and brush down the barrel, re-lube and keep shooting....The guy I sold it to is still shooting it and said he gave the gas tube cleaners he bought, (which I told him were silly) to his daughter for an art project...

 

[Nickle]

A Gas Piston upper is fluff, IMNSHO. Definitely not needed, and hard to justify the cost.

 

[dwarven1]

Hmm... 9-0 so far. Of course, we haven't had any gas piston upper owners check in yet, but that's pretty telling in itself.

Thanks for the comments, folks. Appreciate it.

 

[jrbtzx12r]

I'll be ordering one when I have the money. I may even try Bushmasters new retro kit for $399 bushmaster.com/catalog_parts_upper_receivers.asp#GP-GSR

 

[newenglandjeff]

I plan on putting the rebate I recieve from our most generous federal .gov towards a PFO gas piston upper if it ever comes.
I think its purpose is better suited to full auto guns, but after getting an M1a and WASR a while back I have become a proponent of gas pistons.
So I'm voting against party lines on this one.
9-1

 

[drgrant]

A long time ago I was skeptical of the ARs gas system, and IMO it is still imperfect. I don't like the fact that it shits where it eats... The thing is, after owning one for well over a year now, I've had a total of like 2 malfs in my colt... and in both cases they were due to bad magazine. I've abused it a little by not cleaning it as much as I should... and I've never had a malf because of the crud buildup. (knock on metal and plastic). I usually clean and lube it after every range trip, but if I forget it doesn't turn into a real issue.

One thing people should keep in mind... even a piston system doesn't change the other things which generally contribute to the average AR being unreliable under really harsh conditions. A piston AR will not stop sand, dust, dirt, etc, from getting into the receiver in between the bolt carrier and the upper- this area has frequently been shown to be an issue. So while a typical piston AR doesn't crap where it eats, it may still suffer from the same perceived "reliability window" problems as any other AR. (unless,of course, your AR uses a radically different, non conventional bolt and upper receiver. IMO if you want to mud wrestle with your AR and still have it work, you're better off not using an AR type rifle to begin with. Use an AK, M1A, or even better, a bolt action. Even those eventually will have issues, provided enough junk gets in the action. If you put pebbles and rocks in an AK action, I'm sure it could have issues, assuming it doesn't just grind the rocks up.

Before anyone gets the wrong impression- I'm not "AR bashing' here, just delivering a small reality check. FWIW I consider my Colt 6520 to be my primary SHTF rifle, mainly due to weight and ergonomics.

IMO the bottom line is, if you're getting an AR, a well built DI gas model will be just fine. The only "mechanical" reason to use a piston upper is if you are building an SBR... I've heard offhand that with short barrels a piston upper setup is more reliable. I doubt that's the case here, though... you're probably planning on a regular old 14.5-20" setup.

Edit: Another thing that comes to mind- some piston systems also end up restricting the kind of accessories/rail
systems you can use- because the piston components either wont fit under the rail system or whatnot. So by
sticking with DI gas, you get a bit more parts versatility overall as well, aside from the $300 or whatever it is
staying in your pocket. (or, getting spent on something else, like an Aimpoint, flashlight system, etc. )

-Mike

 

[z0mbi]

LMT is working on a piston system which will apparently retro-fit into their old gas impingement MRP uppers. They had it at the SHOT show.

 

[Jose]

A properly built DI upper will run just fine, save your cash for ammo.
Find an upper based on what you plan to use the rifle for.

+1

Gas pistons may eventually take over, but they won't do so based on rational merits. Most of the AR's problems come from guns not made to the dimensions or tolerances of the military's Technical Data Package or from the the somewhat tighter clearances (compared to an AK or M1) in the operating system. Gas piston uppers do not address, per se, either of those two issues.

I had a Rock River NM rifle and have an LMT/DPMS mutt carbine. Both have been flawless through some pretty hard use.

 

[ranger4-7]

If you are planning on taking a SBR version of the AR to combat and expect to fire thousands of rounds in a brief period, go with a piston. There is a chance that it may perform marginally better. If you are like the rest us, save your money.

I look at the current AR system the way I look at 9MM. I can't quote studies, but how many countries need to choose it, and how many people need to be killed with it before one is willing to admit it's a highly effective device. Arms and ammo are just like any other product; only those that perform will survive in the long run.

 

[Jose]

The fact that the M4 is the weapon of choice of the British Army's Special Air Service, which can have any weapon it wants, is reason enough for me to like it as-is.

 

[kenc]

In my opinion the piston uppers are just too expensive right now to be worth picking up, and as every one else has said my DI uppers have run through thousands of rounds fine. That said though I do want one just because I dont have one and as soon as the the LWRC 10.5 uppers are a reasonable price I will pick one up.

 

[Cross-X]

I say not worth it -- the current bolt design works well. No need for a change.

 

[Cherokee_Outlaw]

A well built conventional AR upper, as said above, is all you need.

IMO a gas piston upper is a solution to a problem that does not exist.

Unless your in the middle of a desert or your life is on the line....

Army Test of the 416,M4,XM8 and MK16

Keep in mind.. the HK416 and M4 was shipped without knowing about the test.. the XM8 and MK16 was hand built for this test..

 

[waya]

i halfway agree with what everyone is saying, but i dont agree that the gas tube system in the M4 is just as reliable as the gas piston. the AK47 operates with a gas piston and it has been a reliable gun since 1947. i am in the army and i was issued an H&K 416. It is a fantastic gun and ive never had one jam with it. it is a gas piston driven gun. i have fired many rounds through the M4 and i have had many malfunctions with the gun. dont get me wrong, i love the M4. its a great gun. i am about to buy one. i really have no need for the gas piston gun at home. i plan on shooting it quite a bit, but i wont shoot it like i shoot my work gun. i know it probably sounds like i am bashing the M4. Im really not. that gun has served me very well for 13 years and prior to that the M16A2 served me well for my first 2 years in the army. I just really like my H&K 416 that ive had for the past year. i think that it was a great trade. another thing i have to look at though is that my 416 is brand new. my last M4 was god knows how old and has had without exaggeration over 100,000 rounds fired through it.

 

[Chris]

Cleaning is required, but honestly its not all that bad.

If you look at the KISS principle, adding more complexity of a gas piston simply adds more possibility to have something fail.

I used to look down on the design (poop where it eats = BAD) and honestly, in my experience I've never seen ANY issues related to it with the exception of two things:

1) stuff gets dirty.

2) shooting without any eye protection is BAD due to the gas. (you'll get debris blown back into your eyes.)

Well, since cleaning isn't that big a deal, and you are supposed to always wear eye protection - who cares.

IMNSHO - Not worth the $$. Spend it on something useful.