Being disarmed at a traffic stop

[drgrant]

The problem with the cops that have people disarm on a traffic stop is 999 out of 1000 of them are ****ING RETARDED with regards to guns. One guy I talked to at FS a long time ago told me about a LEO who ended up muzzle sweeping him with his own 1911. After about 3 minutes of annoyance the dumbass cop asked him to unload the gun for him. (it was a 1911 in C1, he couldn't figure out how to cycle the slide...)

-Mike

 

[AHM]

...[The future Mrs. L.] asked Trooper X about disarming citizens during routine encounters. His default is to disarm the LTC holder of their weapon until he verifies that they are not 'a bad guy', after which he'll promptly return their weapon. My counter is that I'd rather not relinquish my 2nd and 4th amendment rights, and my weapon, until I know that the LEO involved is not a 'bad guy'. Crickets ...

She's coming around, and Trooper X is in for an ear full ...

Thank you for sharing.


Under Terry v. Ohio (and subsequent jurisprudence), during a traffic stop it's not a violation of Federal civil rights for police to search for and remove all accessible weapons from the passenger compartment if "a reasonably prudent man, in the circumstances, would be warranted in the belief that his safety or that of others was in danger".

And I haven't heard of any lesser jurisdictions that forbid the practice.

---

... probably depends on the offixers gut a bit. Im sure some do it case by case.

On the one hand, the decision has to be based upon "the specific reasonable inferences which he is entitled to draw from the facts in light of his experience", not "his inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or 'hunch,'".

On the other hand, I doubt that any court would (for instance) insist that display of a valid LTC barred police from securing any guns from uniformly non-belligerent occupants.

We are told (in part):

... Cops are trained to think everyone is armed, and to act accordingly. ...

I don't think that implies that every (well-)trained cop always checks SCMODS for LTCs, or asks for LTCs, or frisks all the passengers, or roots around for guns in the passenger compartment.

Still, any motorist who wants to make a federal case out of a Terry frisk because they were allegedly armed but not dangerous had better have one hell of a charming dashcam persona if they expect to prevail in court.

 

[HuntMaine]

I just hand them my license and my LTC at the same time if I am carrying. If they want to hold it during the process, fine. The few times it has happened to me (headlight was out, heavy foot on pedal) I was all done in a few minutes and neither time got a ticket.

 

[sofryj]

Too lazy to look it back up and add the link, but I did read on the MGL site, not a 3rd party site, that the law allows an officer to secure your firearm for the duration of your interaction. Although it is true in MA that you are not required to inform the officer you are armed, I personally would only because I carry in the 10 o'clock position and keep my wallet in my back left pocket......certainly don't need an incident.

 

[bigblue]

I just hand them my license and my LTC at the same time if I am carrying. If they want to hold it during the process, fine. The few times it has happened to me (headlight was out, heavy foot on pedal) I was all done in a few minutes and neither time got a ticket.

You do what?

Too lazy to look it back up and add the link, but I did read on the MGL site, not a 3rd party site, that the law allows an officer to secure your firearm for the duration of your interaction. Although it is true in MA that you are not required to inform the officer you are armed, I personally would only because I carry in the 10 o'clock position and keep my wallet in my back left pocket......certainly don't need an incident.

Perhaps you should consider relocating your wallet and sidearm as both are in poor positions.

 

[snd1t]

When are people going to learn to STFU and stop over sharing?

If you have no legal obligation to say anything then why the fark are you people running your yaps?

Its only going to get you into trouble.

Put your hands on the wheel and keep them there until instructed to do otherwise and at that point provide license/registration/etc and then STFU and put your hands back on the wheel at 11-1

It on the OFF change you're asked to get out of the car then WITH YOUR HANDS ON 11-1 tell the officer you're legally carrying and ask him how he want to handle it?

99 out of 100 times you're never going to have to have a discussion beyond a traffic stop with the officer so dont go full retard and open yourself up to new issues without need

 

[robjax]

I haven't been pulled over in a long time. However, I was pulled over more than my fair share as a younger man. I have never been asked to step out of my car. I did have to get out once when my car got towed from 128 because I forgot to renew my registration. But the statie told me to stay in the car until the truck got there. Probably something they wouldn't do today with all the accidents now.

I only ever had one argument with a cop and he still didn't ask me to get out of the car. It wasn't really an argument as much as I was trying to state my case to him to justify why i was speeding around that older man driving slower (aka the speed limit) in front of me...lol I did get a "nice try" but he gave me a ticket anyway.

 

[AHM]

Cheap Humor Dept.

I am more interested to know if MSP is aware that the driver has an LTC when they run the plate and approach the car. If they are aware and choose not to broach the subject despite seeing a stack of target stands in the back seat (hypothetically), that is interesting to me.

MSP recognized a stack of target stands on a back seat?

---

If the officer chooses to disarm you, do you unload the weapon first or trust the officer to unload it? SOP?

... One guy I talked to at FS a long time ago told me about a LEO who ended up muzzle sweeping him with his own 1911. After about 3 minutes of annoyance the dumbass cop asked him to unload the gun for him. (it was a 1911 in C1, he couldn't figure out how to cycle the slide...)

^THIS.

(And OBTW, that's because the cop didn't know the Secret NES Handshake, right?)

What I am interested to know is what is the proper etiquette when the trooper ND's himself with your carry piece at a traffic stop?

• "If you're done shooting yourself with my gun, can I have it back?"
• "Don't worry about paying me for the bullet, that was just plinking ammo.
• "Gee, they just got done telling me at the store that it was 'Glock-Safe'".
• "Do you need the brass?"
• Etc.

One could make a good movie out of a LEO ND at a traffic stop mushrooming into an innocent-man-on-the-lam story. Could be anything from action-adventure to a comedy to a musical.

This year it would be the lead balloon of the summer, sigh.

But in some happier time, it could be epic.

 

[kalash]

Whenever I get pulled over, I leave my seat belt on, put all the windows down (especially since I have dark tint), engine off, keys in the ignition so my dashcam keeps recording (stickers on the rear quarter windows advertise that I might be recording audio and video), hands on the steering wheel. Conversation usually goes like this:

LEO: License and registration please.
Me: License is in my front left pants pocket and registration is in the glovebox. Is it OK for me to reach for them?
LEO: Yep, go ahead.

Keep one hand on the wheel, use the other hand to grab everything. Close the glovebox after I get the reg out. Seat belt stays on. For reference, I carry in my right front pants pocket or at 3 o'clock so I never reach anywhere near the gun when getting my papers out. No mention of LTC or weapons unless asked, in which case I'd answer truthfully, making sure to say "license to carry" before I say "gun".

This isn't exactly rocket science lol

 

[bigblue]

MSP recognized a stack of target stands on a back seat?

---

^THIS.

(And OBTW, that's because the cop didn't know the Secret NES Handshake, right?)

What I am interested to know is what is the proper etiquette when the trooper ND's himself with your carry piece at a traffic stop?

• "If you're done shooting yourself with my gun, can I have it back?"
• "Don't worry about paying me for the bullet, that was just plinking ammo.
• "Gee, they just got done telling me at the store that it was 'Glock-Safe'".
• "Do you need the brass?"
• Etc.

One could make a good movie out of a LEO ND at a traffic stop mushrooming into an innocent-man-on-the-lam story. Could be anything from action-adventure to a comedy to a musical.

This year it would be the lead balloon of the summer, sigh.

But in some happier time, it could be epic.

"Do you reload because I would really like to get my brass back..."


Whether he recognized them as target stand or not idk but they were sitting on a stack of "perforated" IPSC targets so I would think an MSP would put 1 + 2 + 3 together and be close to 6. I could be completely wrong.

 

[sofryj]

Perhaps you should consider relocating your wallet and sidearm as both are in poor positions.

Well, not a lot of good other options for me on the firearm. I'm a heavy guy and it's the only comfortable location. I could move my wallet.....too much shit in my front pockets.....guess I could move it to the right side. I don't keep money in my wallet, that's in a front pocket...oh, and I should correct myself....more 9:00 than 10:00.

 

[Len-2A Training]

When are people going to learn to STFU and stop over sharing?

If you have no legal obligation to say anything then why the fark are you people running your yaps?

Its only going to get you into trouble.

Put your hands on the wheel and keep them there until instructed to do otherwise and at that point provide license/registration/etc and then STFU and put your hands back on the wheel at 11-1

It on the OFF change you're asked to get out of the car then WITH YOUR HANDS ON 11-1 tell the officer you're legally carrying and ask him how he want to handle it?

99 out of 100 times you're never going to have to have a discussion beyond a traffic stop with the officer so dont go full retard and open yourself up to new issues without need

^^^^This!

Must be the same people who register all their guns that the moved into MA with, because a website says it is a good idea!

The few times that I was stopped, I didn't show my badge and I didn't show my LTC. I only showed what I was asked for . . . my DL and Reg. I never worried about my gun becoming suddenly exposed while I sat in a car either.

 

[bigblue]

Well, not a lot of good other options for me on the firearm. I'm a heavy guy and it's the only comfortable location. I could move my wallet.....too much shit in my front pockets.....guess I could move it to the right side. I don't keep money in my wallet, that's in a front pocket...oh, and I should correct myself....more 9:00 than 10:00.

The guy who was shot reaching for his wallet at a traffic stop kept his sidearm and wallet in the same location. Just sayin.

 

[robjax]

The guy who was shot reaching for his wallet at a traffic stop kept his sidearm and wallet in the same location. Just sayin.

Are you talking about that MN guy? If it is that same guy who his gf posted the feed live she said he supposedly told the officer he was an LTC holder and he was carrying. So if all this is true then he falls into the "over sharing" category. Again, I do not know the laws about disclosure in MN so that may have had something to do with it as well.

To summarize.....

As was mentioned here earlier, know the laws in your state. Comply with the officer and follow his/her instructions. Make sure you video the encounter in case you feel your rights were violated then you will have evidence to fight it in court and not on the side of the road.

If you choose to do something else then I think was can all speculate pretty accurately as to what that result might be....lol

 

[usp45ct]

The guy who was shot reaching for his wallet at a traffic stop kept his sidearm and wallet in the same location. Just sayin.

As do I...just sayin. So now he should get shot because he carries a gun? This is a complete cle that will never stop unless we stop carrying or cops diffuse the situation rather than wigging the **** out. They want to go home at night safe, just like that do. They carry a gun to protect themselves just like I do. The major difference is I do not care if they carry a gun. Goes with the job. Not all, but many cops DO care that I carry a gun, it makes them feel threatened and some react irrationally. In a recent video of a cop shooting, the cop draws his weapon while driving and is holding it and the steering wheel at the same time. Is that training?


look, there are *******s in every job that should not be in that job. You know who they are. Being a cop is volunteering to put yourself in harms way. Recognize that IS the job and decide if that is a job you want or not. But hiding behind the thin blue line is bullshit that needs to stop.

How did we get to the point where I have to make a life decision wether to tell the cop I carry a gun or not so I don't get shot, and record the stop in the event I do get shot, my family would be able to get something, but not from the guy that shot me. He gets a paid vacation.

 

[snd1t]

As do I...just sayin. So now he should get shot because he carries a gun? This is a complete cle that will never stop unless we stop carrying or cops diffuse the situation rather than wigging the **** out. They want to go home at night safe, just like that do. They carry a gun to protect themselves just like I do. The major difference is I do not care if they carry a gun. Goes with the job. Not all, but many cops DO care that I carry a gun, it makes them feel threatened and some react irrationally. In a recent video of a cop shooting, the cop draws his weapon while driving and is holding it and the steering wheel at the same time. Is that training?


look, there are *******s in every job that should not be in that job. You know who they are. Being a cop is volunteering to put yourself in harms way. Recognize that IS the job and decide if that is a job you want or not. But hiding behind the thin blue line is bullshit that needs to stop.

How did we get to the point where I have to make a life decision wether to tell the cop I carry a gun or not so I don't get shot, and record the stop in the event I do get shot, my family would be able to get something, but not from the guy that shot me. He gets a paid vacation.

The long and the short of it is that dumb people voted for bad reps/sens who in turn have foisted on us a mountain of bad laws and have enabled bureaucrats to enact rules that carry the weight of law

In the process our "Peace Keepers" have been transformed into "Law Enforcement Officers" and a shitload of additional cops had to be hired in order to even begin to enforce all of the previously mentioned idiocy

Given that there are only so many people in the population that have the temperment/inclindation to do the job WELL.....a large number of people poorly suited to be police officers were hired to do exactly that job.....and no amount of training will make good cops out of poor candidates........so here we are being subjected to a raft of bad laws/regulations by "Law Enforcement" officers who are frequently ill suited to do the job without violating our rights and killing some in the process.

When you combine a significant number of poorly suited police officers interacting with a population that isnt inclined to behave in a civilized manner you get a powder keg

 

[M1911]

I've been stopped 4 times in MA over the past 25 years. Not once have I been asked about weapons in the car. They didn't ask and I didn't volunteer. I handed over my license and registration. A while later they handed them back with a warning a told me to slow down.

 

[M1911]

The guy who was shot reaching for his wallet at a traffic stop kept his sidearm and wallet in the same location. Just sayin.

That was the original story but apparently that has turned out to be false.

 

[Spanz]

ya know, you can be right, and you can be dead-right. In this month's environment, with cops getting shot almost every morning, if a cop tells me to do something at a pull over...i am pretty much gonna say "YES SIR!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

A bit off topic, but I suggest that you have your gun licenses "hidden" in your wallet so they are not visible unless you choose to show them. I know of a case in NY where the drivers had a bit of a hassle because the NYSP trooper recognized the distinctive blue bar at the top of a CT carry permit.

I have once been asked about guns when I was a passenger in a stopped car. The details are unimportant, but the driver and passenger behaved appropriately, and the matter was handled professionally and courteously with a minimum of stress for all parties involved.

 

[Asaltweapon]

ya know, you can be right, and you can be dead-right. In this month's environment, with cops getting shot almost every morning, if a cop tells me to do something at a pull over...i am pretty much gonna say "YES SIR!

THIS. Right, wrong or indifferent. No need to play internet hero today or any day for that matter.

 

[Christian]

It's been at least a decade since I was last pulled over and 99% of the time previous to that I've had my DL and reg in hand with both hands on the wheel(interior lights on at night) before the LEO gets to the car to minimize the experience. It's all but once worked out for the better doing that(later I found out from another trooper that that guy is a jerkoff that the rest hated and would never back up).

 

[tuna]

I keep my reg in my visor so they can't look in my glove box.
I finally follow my dad's advice about not passing up an opportunity to shut the **** up, especially to cops.
Never been asked, only bad time was 20 years ago when I volunteered the info.
Just keep quiet, and make up a story for the internet.

 

[AHM]

...

• "Do you need the brass?"

...

"Do you reload because I would really like to get my brass back..."

That puts it much better, heh.

 

[jaymce]

I am more interested to know if MSP is aware that the driver has an LTC when they run the plate and approach the car.

*****Len has pointed out that the info below pertaining to the license being pulled up has changed.*****


My understanding from a MSP friend (been a few years since I asked) is that LTC info is available but "you need to drill down a few pages" in order to get that info. The info would not need to be accessed diring a routine stop. He also suggested not offering the info unless asked or were asked to exit the vehicle.



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[M1911]

It's been at least a decade since I was last pulled over and 99% of the time previous to that I've had my DL and reg in hand with both hands on the wheel(interior lights on at night) before the LEO gets to the car to minimize the experience.

I have been advised not to do that. All the cop can see are your shoulders as you are rooting around. He doesn't know if you are reaching for your wallet and registration or for a gun. My practice is to keep my hands on the wheel as the officer approaches.

 

[weekendracer]

The back story: met my soon to be new wife at the place we train about 10 years ago. I've been there for 20+ years. One of her contemporaries there, and a very cool guy and friend, is a Mass State Trooper.

The future Mrs. L. got her LTC, because I can be quite convincing, and she's very smart, and is paying attention to the shiite going on with regard to our trying times, and the prevalence of negative LEO and citizen encounters. She asked Trooper X about disarming citizens during routine encounters. His default is to disarm the LTC holder of their weapon until he verifies that they are not 'a bad guy', after which he'll promptly return their weapon. My counter is that I'd rather not relinquish my 2nd and 4th amendment rights, and my weapon, until I know that the LEO involved is not a 'bad guy'. Crickets ...

She's coming around, and Trooper X is in for an ear full ...

Because polite, friendly people are getting shot by cops all over the place? Way to perpetuate the fear.

 

[drgrant]

My understanding from a MSP friend (been a few years since I asked) is that LTC info is available but "you need to drill down a few pages" in order to get that info. The info would not need to be accessed diring a routine stop.

While it "would not need to be accessed" that doesn't mean that a bored LEO won't do it. I got stopped once for a missing reg decal winter 2015, and the Trooper asked about it during the
stop but it was right before he gave me my stuff back. I think he was just using it as a topic of conversation as a kind of an ongoing shit test to see if I was sober or not. (and I was at the time, but it was like 2 am early on a saturday or sunday morning. ) I was literally the only car on the road, and after I got stopped I think a total of like two cars passed us while I was pulled over. I got the distinct impression based on how the guy operated that he was really bored and was just looking for "that one guy to fill his 1/hr quota". He seemed like a decent guy but I could tell he was
fishing pretty hardcore...

 

[jaymce]

I'm sure there is a lot of info a bored LEO can access.

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[Len-2A Training]

My understanding from a MSP friend (been a few years since I asked) is that LTC info is available but "you need to drill down a few pages" in order to get that info. The info would not need to be accessed diring a routine stop. He also suggested not offering the info unless asked or were asked to exit the vehicle.



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Not true with CJISweb and I did see it as proof a few years ago.