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Bump stock theory

KBCraig

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So, we saw that RW Arms in Texas turned over 60,000 bump stocks the day the ban took effect, and we saw video of ATF promptly running them all through the shredder.

Here's my theory: RW was gambling that the rule banning bump stocks will be overturned, and the seizure will be converted into a 5th Amendment "takings" case. With a huge surplus of novelty items that weren't big sellers, they got rid of them easily and will probably make a ton of money in the end.

Since they turned them in by the pallet load, I wonder how many of them were even functional. I also wonder how many of them they made right up until the last day.
 
Hmm, nice detective work. I think your theory has a lot of merit. When I saw that shit I was like "this can't be right, this doesn't make sense" but given your explanation it makes perfect sense- basically they're hanging the government up by the ballbag for a takings lawsuit... correct me if I'm wrong here, but even if the "ban" stands, isn't there still standing for takings? Particularly given that ATF demanded destruction as opposed to the aikins accelerator thing where they want "oh as long as you don't possess the spring" which limited their takings liability to like 50 cents per stock or something. (because the owner got to keep the rest of the stock, however worthless it is... )

-Mike
 
Yes I could see that being true, but the reality of it is....

They surrender the bump sticks for destruction as ordered like they did, go to courts to fight it under the taking clause and violation of rights. Even if they win which is very plausible, the government will be more than happy to pay out with OUR tax dollars and they might get a slap on the wrist to not do it again.

Fast forward to anytime in the future, they will do it again because they can and no one will stop them.

This case has no legs to stand on from any point of view yet it still happened “because guns”.
 
Yes I could see that being true, but the reality of it is....

They surrender the bump sticks for destruction as ordered like they did, go to courts to fight it under the taking clause and violation of rights. Even if they win which is very plausible, the government will be more than happy to pay out with OUR tax dollars and they might get a slap on the wrist to not do it again.

Fast forward to anytime in the future, they will do it again because they can and no one will stop them.

This case has no legs to stand on from any point of view yet it still happened “because guns”.
Depends on whose involved legally and their attorneys, IMHO there's hay to be made here....
 
Hmm, nice detective work. I think your theory has a lot of merit. When I saw that shit I was like "this can't be right, this doesn't make sense" but given your explanation it makes perfect sense- basically they're hanging the government up by the ballbag for a takings lawsuit... correct me if I'm wrong here, but even if the "ban" stands, isn't there still standing for takings? Particularly given that ATF demanded destruction as opposed to the aikins accelerator thing where they want "oh as long as you don't possess the spring" which limited their takings liability to like 50 cents per stock or something. (because the owner got to keep the rest of the stock, however worthless it is... )

-Mike

It actually doesn't have much merit. An attorney friend explained it to me. The bump stock was declared contraband which, much like Cocaine (was legal, then not legal, had to be destroyed or turned in) or Alcohol during the dark days of prohibition, once declared contraband, the mere possession of which is a crime, there is no lawful property interest in an unlawfully possessed item.
 
It actually doesn't have much merit. An attorney friend explained it to me. The bump stock was declared contraband which, much like Cocaine (was legal, then not legal, had to be destroyed or turned in) or Alcohol during the dark days of prohibition, once declared contraband, the mere possession of which is a crime, there is no lawful property interest in an unlawfully possessed item.

Hmmm, what's the point of the grandfather clause for the 1994 AWB then? Gov can just declare any private property illegal to possess and citizens have no recourse but to destroy or turn it in?
 
Alcohol was declared contraband by Congress. Pretty sure Cocaine the same thing. Bumpstocks?? Presidential fiat.
 
It actually doesn't have much merit. An attorney friend explained it to me. The bump stock was declared contraband which, much like Cocaine (was legal, then not legal, had to be destroyed or turned in) or Alcohol during the dark days of prohibition, once declared contraband, the mere possession of which is a crime, there is no lawful property interest in an unlawfully possessed item.
Mighty circular that reasoning. [thinking]
 
It actually doesn't have much merit. An attorney friend explained it to me. The bump stock was declared contraband which, much like Cocaine (was legal, then not legal, had to be destroyed or turned in) or Alcohol during the dark days of prohibition, once declared contraband, the mere possession of which is a crime, there is no lawful property interest in an unlawfully possessed item.

Just because people tolerated it and "let it go" doesn't necessarily make the action legal. .gov gets away with a lot of bullshit legally because either the means or
resources don't or didn't exist to challenge it at the time.

-Mike
 
Does the ATF really have the final say on what is a machine gun? In other words, in a trial would the judge allow your attorney to argue that it's not a machine gun per the actual law?
 
Does the ATF really have the final say on what is a machine gun? In other words, in a trial would the judge allow your attorney to argue that it's not a machine gun per the actual law?


In any real sense, yes. I was just forced to "donate" a "machinegun" to the ATF because they declared it a machinegun. It was (is?) semi-auto, and had always been semi-auto, and they couldn't figure out how to make it full auto, but because the manufacturer had advertised a full auto version (but only made two, and sold zero) the ATF determined that mine was a "machinegun" unless I could produce an actual full-auto version for comparison. (which was impossible, because they'd both been destroyed and the company had been out of business for a long time)
 
Does the ATF really have the final say on what is a machine gun? In other words, in a trial would the judge allow your attorney to argue that it's not a machine gun per the actual law?

What a quaint concept. American jurisprudence has evolved far beyond whatever the actual statute or Constitutional clause says. It is now outcome based jurisprudence. All it takes is some novel judicial theory and - Voila - you have whatever you want.

Then at legal conferences all the attendees laugh with and high five each other and lay wagers on who will top the latest outrage in the ensuing year.
 
I seem to remember reading RW was formed by a former Slide Fire employee and there was an ATF investigation about his company selling guns(former Slide Fire inventory) without an FFL.
 
Just because people tolerated it and "let it go" doesn't necessarily make the action legal. .gov gets away with a lot of bullshit legally because either the means or
resources don't or didn't exist to challenge it at the time.

-Mike
Not saying I disagree with you, however, precedent is not on our sides here
 
Hmmm, what's the point of the grandfather clause for the 1994 AWB then? Gov can just declare any private property illegal to possess and citizens have no recourse but to destroy or turn it in?

because that never actually banned assault weapons - it banned the import and manufacture of them, not possession or transfer.
 
I was never a fan of the Bumpstock. I take aimed shots followed by additional aimed shots. That said, the Government had No Right to tell any of us "Not for You!"...
 
Posession of post-ban items was illegal too.

Don't confuse state laws with federal, I'm talking strictly about the federal 1994 AWB not the MA 1998 AWB. I don't know of anything in the federal ban that actually prohibited possession
 
Don't confuse state laws with federal, I'm talking strictly about the federal 1994 AWB not the MA 1998 AWB. I don't know of anything in the federal ban that actually prohibited possession

Not sure if serious, it says this right in the (thankfully now defunct) law...
"
SEC. 110102. RESTRICTION ON MANUFACTURE, TRANSFER, AND POSSESSION OF
CERTAIN SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS.
(a) Restriction.--Section 922 of title 18, United States Code, is
amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:
``(v)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture,
transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon."

The grandfather clause was an "exemption" to the applicability of the law...

That said, in practical terms it was almost unenforceable. I never heard of the feds actually prosecuting someone for possessing a postban anything, probably because other parts of the law lead things to being ambiguous etc. (even the ATF knew this was mostly bullshit garbage law). Obviously the manufacturers and
dealers stayed pretty straight laced.

The feds had also even codified protections within that law- EG, any unmarked magazine without the GOV BAN wording on it, was to be PRESUMED to be
preban at face value. Unfortunately the MA bullshit did not absorb this part of US code into its own laws. (basically it completely immunized you if your magazines did not say "LE GOV ONLY blah blah" on them.

-Mike
 
So, we saw that RW Arms in Texas turned over 60,000 bump stocks the day the ban took effect, and we saw video of ATF promptly running them all through the shredder.

Here's my theory: RW was gambling that the rule banning bump stocks will be overturned, and the seizure will be converted into a 5th Amendment "takings" case. With a huge surplus of novelty items that weren't big sellers, they got rid of them easily and will probably make a ton of money in the end.

Since they turned them in by the pallet load, I wonder how many of them were even functional. I also wonder how many of them they made right up until the last day.
Tax write-off. As to how many were functional, who really knows. Some could have been returned as defective and were about to be scrapped, but many were likely NIB.
 
Not sure if serious, it says this right in the (thankfully now defunct) law...
"
SEC. 110102. RESTRICTION ON MANUFACTURE, TRANSFER, AND POSSESSION OF
CERTAIN SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT WEAPONS.
(a) Restriction.--Section 922 of title 18, United States Code, is
amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:
``(v)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture,
transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon."

The grandfather clause was an "exemption" to the applicability of the law...

That said, in practical terms it was almost unenforceable. I never heard of the feds actually prosecuting someone for possessing a postban anything, probably because other parts of the law lead things to being ambiguous etc. (even the ATF knew this was mostly bullshit garbage law). Obviously the manufacturers and
dealers stayed pretty straight laced.

The feds had also even codified protections within that law- EG, any unmarked magazine without the GOV BAN wording on it, was to be PRESUMED to be
preban at face value. Unfortunately the MA bullshit did not absorb this part of US code into its own laws. (basically it completely immunized you if your magazines did not say "LE GOV ONLY blah blah" on them.

-Mike
Mike, didn't federal law or ATF rulings require Striker 12 and Streetsweeper-type revolver shotguns to be registered as NFA destructive devices by their current owners?
 
Tax write-off. As to how many were functional, who really knows. Some could have been returned as defective and were about to be scrapped, but many were likely NIB.
And since they turned over everything intending to sue (thanks for the link, mikeyp), it could have been a case of, "How many boxes do we have? Good, throw a bunch of plastic and scraps in there!"
 
The gov has already argued their case if you read the regulation as written in the federal register:

DEPARTMENT RESPONSE
The Department does not agree that classifying bump-stock-type devices as machineguns results in the unlawful taking of property “for public use, without just compensation.” U.S. Const. amend. V. It is well established that “the nature of the [government's] action is critical in takings analysis.” Keystone Bituminous Coal Ass'n v. DeBenedictis, 480 U.S. 470, 488 (1987); accord Penn Cent. Transp. Co. v. City of New York, 438 U.S. 104, 124 (1978) (“character of the government action” has “particular significance”). The Department's action here, classifying bump-stock-type devices as machineguns subject to the NFA and GCA, does not have the nature of a taking.

A restriction on “contraband or noxious goods” and dangerous articles by the government to protect public safety and welfare “has not been regarded as a taking for public use for which compensation must be paid.” Acadia Tech., Inc. v. United States, 458 F.3d 1327, 1332 (Fed. Cir. 2006); see also United States v. $7,990.00 in U.S. Currency, 170 F.3d 843, 845 (8th Cir. 1999) (“forfeiture of contraband is an exercise of the government's police power” and does not qualify as a taking).[7] The Takings Clause was “not intended as a limitation of the exercise of those police powers which are necessary to the tranquility of every well-ordered community, nor of that general power over private property which is necessary for the orderly existence of all governments. It has always been held that the legislature may make police regulations, although they may interfere with the full enjoyment of private property, and though no compensation is given.” Chi., Burlington & Quincy Ry. Co. v. Illinois, 200 U.S. 561, 594 (1906) (internal quotation marks omitted); see, e.g., Holliday Amusement Co. of Charleston v. South Carolina, 493 F.3d 404, 409-11 (4th Cir. 2007) (upholding State prohibition of video gaming machines without compensation).

In Mugler v. Kansas, 123 U.S. 623, 668-69 (1887), for example, the Supreme Court rejected a distiller's argument that a State constitutional amendment prohibiting the manufacture and sale of intoxicating liquors was an unconstitutional taking. The Court explained that the government's power to prohibit the “use by individuals of their property, as will be prejudicial to the health, the morals, or the safety of the public, is not, and, consistently with the existence and safety of organized society, cannot be, burdened with the condition that the state must compensate such individual owners for pecuniary losses they may sustain, by reason of their not being permitted, by a noxious use of their property, to inflict injury upon the community.” Id. at 669. Similarly, the Supreme Court held in Miller v. Schoene, 276 U.S. 272, 280 (1928), that Virginia was not required to compensate owners of red cedar trees for the value of trees that the State had ordered destroyed to prevent the spread of a disease that threatened local apple orchards. “[W]here the public interest is involved,” the Court observed, “preferment of that interest over the property interest of the individual, to the extent even of its destruction, is one of the distinguishing characteristics of every exercise of the police power which affects property.” Id. at 279-80. Lower courts have likewise deemed the Takings Clause inapplicable to governmental regulation of dangerous personal property for public-safety reasons. See, e.g., Garcia v. Vill. of Tijeras, 767 P.2d 355 (N.M. Ct. App. 1988) (village ordinance banning possession of pit bulls was “a proper exercise of the Village's police power” and not a taking).

Consistent with these cases, courts have rejected arguments that restrictions on the possession of dangerous firearms, like machineguns, are takings requiring just compensation. In Akins v. United States, 82 Fed. Cl. 619 (2008), for example, the Court of Federal Claims held that ATF's ultimate classification of the Akins Accelerator as a machinegun, see supra Part III, was not a taking. The court reasoned that ATF had acted “pursuant to the police power conferred on it by Congress” rather than by exercising eminent domain, and that the plaintiff lacked a sufficient property interest because he had “voluntarily entered an area subject to pervasive federal regulation—the manufacture and sale of firearms.” Id. at 623-24; see also Bennis v. Michigan, 516 U.S. 442, 452 (1996) (“The government may not be required to compensate an owner for property which it has already lawfully acquired under the exercise of governmental authority other than the power of eminent domain.”). Similar reasoning led the District of Columbia Court of Appeals to hold that a DC law prohibiting machineguns and requiring their disposal or removal was not a taking. Fesjian v. Jefferson, 399 A.2d 861, 865-66 (1979). These precedents support the Department's conclusion that the prohibition of bump-stock-type devices as machineguns does not have the character of a compensable taking within the meaning of the Fifth Amendment.

The Department acknowledges that a panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit recently upheld a preliminary injunction against the Attorney General of California that relied in part on the Takings Clause in prohibiting the State from implementing restrictions on firearm magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. Duncan v. Becerra, No. 17-56081, 2018 WL 3433828 (9th Cir. July 17, 2018). The Ninth Circuit's order essentially adopted the district court's analysis of the Takings Clause question. See id. at *3. The district court's reasoning on the takings question was closely intertwined with the Second Amendment inquiry, and rested on the conclusion that it was “dubious” for California to deem large-capacity magazines a public nuisance given the Supreme Court's observation that “[g]uns in general are not deleterious devices or products or obnoxious waste materials.” Duncan v. Becerra, 265 F. Supp. 3d 1106, 1137 (S.D. Cal. 2017) (internal quotation marks omitted) (quoting Staples v. United States, 511 U.S. 600, 610 (1994)). But regulation of bump-stock-type devices is fundamentally distinguishable from California's prohibition on possessing such magazines. As discussed, and as Heller indicates, dangerous and unusual weapons are not entitled to Second Amendment protection, and may indeed qualify as deleterious devices or contraband. Other district courts have followed the reasoning of cases like Akins and Fesjian and rejected takings challenges to California firearm restrictions. See Rupp v. Becerra, 2018 WL 2138452, at *8-9 (C.D. Cal. May 9, 2018) (restrictions on “assault weapons”); Wiese v. Becerra, 263 F. Supp. 3d 986, 995 (E.D. Cal. 2017) (prohibition of large-capacity gun magazines).

Finally, the Department does not agree that each owner of a bump-stock-type device has a due-process right to a hearing in connection with the promulgation of this rule. The rule clarifies the scope of the NFA and GCA, general legislative enactments, with respect to bump-stock-type devices. “Official action that is legislative in nature is not subject to the notice and hearing requirements of the due process Start Printed Page 66525clause.” Interport Pilots Agency, Inc. v. Sammis, 14 F.3d 133, 142 (2d Cir. 1994); see also, e.g., Bi-Metallic Inv. Co. v. State Bd. of Equalization,239 U.S. 441, 445 (1915) (“General statutes within the state power are passed that affect the person or property of individuals, sometimes to the point of ruin, without giving them a chance to be heard.”). Furthermore, the Department's conclusion that bump-stock-type devices are machineguns under the NFA and GCA means that owners lack a cognizable property interest in these devices for due-process purposes. As the Fifth Circuit held in Cooper v. City of Greenwood,firearms covered by the NFA are “contraband per se,” and “[c]ourts will not entertain a claim contesting the confiscation of contraband per se because one cannot have a property right in that which is not subject to legal possession.” 904 F.2d 302, 305 (1990).
 
Mike, didn't federal law or ATF rulings require Striker 12 and Streetsweeper-type revolver shotguns to be registered as NFA destructive devices by their current owners?

That was based off ATF deciding they didn't meet the stupid "sporting purposes" clause for title 1 shotguns. So there was an amnesty of sorts with a window to get DD stamps for them.... In recent history there was some talk of them reinterpreting this, because of the wide use of shotguns in sports like 3 gun, etc.
 
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