Buying a gun from an old relative who's license wasn't renewed

Did I miss the part where he no longer has a valid LTC?

I believe that there may be some confusion as to what actually happened. Did the gentleman apply for renewal and was formally denied? Or did the PD tell him he would not be renewed. Was his license officially revoked? Did he just decide unilaterally to not apply for renewal? Maybe based on some subtle pressure from someone?

If I read the OP's first post correctly, the gentleman does not seem to want to discuss it.
 
The best advice is "know the law" and also "know how it is applied and understood by cops".

The two are not necessarily the same. The two place where you WILL find police who do not understand the nuanaces, and need to hire legal counsel to explain it, are:

- Possessing a gun NOT ON YOUR PERSON on school property. I doubt 1 in 100 cops knows this is not a crime.
- An expired license by someone not denied a renewal or statutorily ineligible for a renewal renders carry/possession a civil offense of carry/possession on an expired license

Do NOT confuse someone pointing out those aspects of MGL with advice suggesting you rely on them.

As to what is a denial - The Brookline police have been known to claim "You asked for unrestricted, we gave you target, you did not disclose that denial, your renewal is revoked based on that lie". And that was without a formal notice of denial or filing any record of the original denial with the FRB.
 
Again, OP, has he tried to log into the portal?

If he can, there's no reason he can't just transfer four of them. The rest are indefinitely okay at his nephew's house. See Post 5. He can't possess them, but he can own them.
I'll ask him if he's able to do that. I don't know if he's bought a gun since the 90's... the portal should be a hoot. Looks like this is the big test.
 
Another way to think about this.......

Are the guns that he owns old??? Has he owned these guns forever??? Have these guns been bought in the last 25 years or so???

Do you see were I'm going with this???

Does the Commywealth even know that he owns the guns???

If the Commywealth doesn't know about them just buy/take them from him and no one knows anything...

Then you can just eFA-10 them with no seller info...

After all you can have a LTC but not even own one gun... My wife had a LTC, it was only to cover her if she ended up with my guns(s) in her possession she'd be in legal possession of said gun(s)...

Is what I've said above LEGAL I have no idea, I'm not a LAWYER ;) :rolleyes: :p

I am quresh about this, anyone out here know if what I laid out is legal??? If the Commywealth has no idea what guns this gentleman owns do you have to "transfer" them or can you just take (buy) possession of them and then eFA-10 them as yours???
 
FA-10s have been around since 1968 and essentially all of them have been computerized.

No it is not legal to take them and not eFA-10 them. It doesn't matter if they were ever FA-10'd before.

If he was formally denied, the long convoluted method that Swatgig suggested would work and is legal. No FFLs required.
 
As to what is a denial - The Brookline police have been known to claim "You asked for unrestricted, we gave you target, you did not disclose that denial, your renewal is revoked based on that lie". And that was without a formal notice of denial or filing any record of the original denial with the FRB.

WTF?
 
Based on a quick web search, the atf website seems to indicate that it would be fine for him to sell his guns with no license but does that apply here in Massachusetts

ATF is not talking about a MA LTC here, they don't give a f about state licenses. When they say license, they mean an FFL.
 
You are all missing the fact that his application has been denied. Under MGL Chapter 140, section 129D he is required to, without delay, surrender his guns to the local police, or risk jail for two and a half years.

If the gentleman did apply for a renewal and was denied, then you're right.

But we're dealing with a third party retelling of a story the other party was probably embarrassed and confused over.

"He told me his ltc hadn't been renewed because the state police gave him the thumbs down. "

There's a LOT of room there for something other than an actual denial.

Although, probably you're correct.

And I just had bacon wrapped scallops from Trader Joe's. They were awesome. Highly recommend them. Too late I thought about using some pure maple syrup as a dipping sauce. Dammit all.
 
If the gentleman did apply for a renewal and was denied, then you're right.

But we're dealing with a third party retelling of a story the other party was probably embarrassed and confused over.

"He told me his ltc hadn't been renewed because the state police gave him the thumbs down. "

There's a LOT of room there for something other than an actual denial.

Although, probably you're correct.

And I just had bacon wrapped scallops from Trader Joe's. They were awesome. Highly recommend them. Too late I thought about using some pure maple syrup as a dipping sauce. Dammit all.

This.

"Denied a renewal for one reason or another" argues, to me, that the old man is being a little cagey about what happened.

If his LTC is still valid, then his LTC is still valid. That's the only thing that matters, probably. Or wouldn't the cops have already demanded the guns?
 
FA-10s have been around since 1968 and essentially all of them have been computerized.

No it is not legal to take them and not eFA-10 them. It doesn't matter if they were ever FA-10'd before.

If he was formally denied, the long convoluted method that Swatgig suggested would work and is legal. No FFLs required.

Len, is 1968 the correct date for the FA-10? Were not Blue Cards used into the 80's?
 
I doubt anyone here could possibly think that a veteran in their 80’s would get in one speck of trouble or even and phone call inquiry if he FA-10 transfers more than 4 in a year. The state doesn’t give a shit. Go ahead and buy what you want and file the correct paperwork.
The real Issue here is that a law abiding citizen has been told he cannot exercise his second amendment rights. I feel for him and it sounds as if he does not want to fight with them but that does not make it right.
good luck
 
I doubt anyone here could possibly think that a veteran in their 80’s would get in one speck of trouble or even and phone call inquiry if he FA-10 transfers more than 4 in a year. The state doesn’t give a shit. Go ahead and buy what you want and file the correct paperwork.
The real Issue here is that a law abiding citizen has been told he cannot exercise his second amendment rights. I feel for him and it sounds as if he does not want to fight with them but that does not make it right.
good luck

I sure something happened accidentally like he didn't fill out the paperwork for his renewal correctly, and instead of getting a second chance at filling out the forms some rubber stamp wielding idiot just plunks down a denial for renewal.

It pisses my grandfather in law off and gets him all riled. Like I said he's pretty old and COPD often kicks his ass. He has a very difficult time doing tasks most of us take for granted. I doubt I'd be able to get him to an ffl. There was no way he was going to fight the system at this stage in his life, so he just said f-em.

Again I want to thank you for all the responses you've given. I'm glad the laws are so well thought out and easy to understand. Ha
 
Here's what I've had some of my clients do:

Go to the gun portal and surrender the guns to the police. Print 3 copies of each EFA10.
Go to the gun portal and transfer the surrendered guns to transferee (nephew or grandson-in-law). Print 3 copies of each EFA10.
Grandfather-in-in law writes letter to police authorizing transfer of surrendered guns.
Grandson-on-law writes letter to police informing police that he will NOT return guns to grandfather-in-law unless he becomes properly licensed.
Uncle writes letter to police authorizing transfer of surrendered guns to nephew.
Nephew writes letter to police informing police that he will NOT return guns to uncle unless he becomes properly licensed.
Grandfather/uncle, nephew, and grandson-in-law all go to police station with guns, EFA10s, and letters to surrender guns.
Go inside with paperwork, and leave guns locked in trunk of car outside (properly stored)
Tell them you wish to surrender and transfer the guns.
If you're lucky, police will take paperwork and tell you to leave. Otherwise, bring in the guns, surrender them. and ask when they will be delivered to the new owners.


Notes: IAAL.
No limit on number of transfers when done as a result of surrender to police. No FFL required.


This is what I did for a uncle who got dementia. Even the licensing cop didn’t have a clue what to do and I worked with him to do the paperwork and gave them their copies.
 
After his license expires you can still efa10 and skip transferor. Nobody will come knock on your door.

Likely true but not legal.

So "assuming", OP's wife's grandfather's guns are compliant guns and are in possession of the wife's nephew (again "assuming" he is properly licensed) and the grandfather's license is only expiring or expired, then before anything takes place. All is good. Guns are safe and secured with a properly licensed person.

Now the OP purchases one or more of these guns. Bejamins go the grandfather. Nephew gives gun/s to OP. He does what nstassel suggests and efa10's on the portal. And yes, as Len-2A Training has stated "Likely true, but not legal. Then what is the "status" of the OP's gun he now posses and has efa10'd using the portal? I'm not talking about someone knocking at your door, but if the OP is carrying it. And then down the road, the OP decides to sell it? Wouldn't he "just" be able to sell it FTF or even through a FFL as a normal transaction barring any unusual conditions?

Jay
 
FA-10s have been around since 1968 and essentially all of them have been computerized.
Perhaps I just dreamed it (many times over), but the story (myth?) about how many thousands of blue cards/FA-10s were destroyed decades ago (pre-switchover to computers) while in dank, dark, wet storage is no longer operative? [thinking]

Not that I particularly give a damn. I just want to know if my memory is going down the drain. [laugh]
 
Perhaps I just dreamed it (many times over), but the story (myth?) about how many thousands of blue cards/FA-10s were destroyed decades ago (pre-switchover to computers) while in dank, dark, wet storage is no longer operative? [thinking]

Not that I particularly give a damn. I just want to know if my memory is going down the drain. [laugh]

That happened.

Somebody might remember the estimate on how many, but many thousands.
 
Jay I can only relate that I am aware of several instances in which guns were acquired in situations similar to OPs, efa10'd and then sold and re-fa10'd or traded to ffls with no imperial entanglements.
NOBODY looks back to see if a gun was eFA-10'd thru the total chain of ownership from the first dealer to the last owner. It just isn't done.

Perhaps I just dreamed it (many times over), but the story (myth?) about how many thousands of blue cards/FA-10s were destroyed decades ago (pre-switchover to computers) while in dank, dark, wet storage is no longer operative? [thinking]

Not that I particularly give a damn. I just want to know if my memory is going down the drain. [laugh]
Estimate is ~30K blue cards were turned to mush and disposed of as moldy, hazardous waste. ~1 million blue cards and old FA-10s were computerized back in 1997-98. That info was direct from the people who held the job of FRB Director at those times.
 
Estimate is ~30K blue cards were turned to mush and disposed of as moldy, hazardous waste. ~1 million blue cards and old FA-10s were computerized back in 1997-98. That info was direct from the people who held the job of FRB Director at those times.
So just 3% of the old records were destroyed? [thinking] Yep, that's not nearly enough! [laugh]
 
Some departments view the licensing process as a procedure to determine if someone is disqualified form gun ownership or poses a threat (in the depatment's opinion, of course). Brookline views it as a scavenger hunt to look for any opportunity to deny the LTC.
 
I am pretty sure there is an exception in the various MA firearms laws for 87 year old Korean War vets. Informally known as the DILLIGAF clause it states that he shouldn't concern himself with any of this nonsense and do what he wants with this guns ;-)
 
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If his renewal was denied, he was required to surrender his guns to the police.
He says the police won't renew.....doesn't say his ltc was suspended.

And.....even if the he was suspended I believe he can still take the guns to an ffl and transfer them to another ltc holder. Right?
 
"If this..." "If that..." "I think..." "He says..." "He could..."

I will go back to my last post: No one knows just what happened.

If you have ever dealt with the elderly you know that sometimes you do not get the exact story. Forgetfulness, anger, embarrassment, whatever. Sometimes you just don't get the necessary details to make an informed decision. So we are all reduced answering an "assumed" situation.

Coincidentally, the lead story on the current issue of the GOAL Newspaper is headlined:

Protect Your Property
An LTC or FID Revocation Notice Does Not Grant Police Right To Search Your Home


It does not list an author (that I could find).

I imagine that this story could lead to some heated questions/debate on the issue.
 
If the relative has a C&R 03 FFL, would that work for taking posession of C&R guns?
an 03 does not allow you to bypass MA law. The ONLY benefit an 03 gives you in MA in the acquisition/disposition of firearms is that a dealer can sell/transfer you a C&R handgun that is off roster. That is it. You have to follow all MA laws and you cannot transfer from a person without a valid MA license without using a FFL.
 
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