Caliber Choice

JimConway

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This is a great article that presents you need the info clearly

have been asked a number of times over the years what handgun round I prefer to carry & why. It’s not a simple, nor fast question to answer so shall make an attempt to do so here.

The rounds you will find by my side most of the time are some form of expanding 9mm hollow points. They are not +P’s or +P+’s, just your regular octane leaded type. Before I go on let’s get the definitions for mechanics of projectile wounding out there:

1. Penetration: The tissue through which the projectile passes, and which it disrupts or destroys.
2. Permanent Cavity: The volume of space once occupied by tissue that has been destroyed by the passage of a projectile. This is a function of penetration and the frontal area of the projectile. Quite simply, it is the hole left by the passage of a bullet.
3. Temporary Cavity: The expansion of the permanent cavity by stretching due to the transfer of kinetic energy during the projectiles passage.
4. Fragmentation: Projectile pieces of secondary fragment of bone which is impelled outward from the permanent cavity and may sever muscle tissue, blood vessels, etc. apart from the permanent cavity. 1, 2 Fragmentation is not necessarily present in every projectile wound. It may or may, or may not, occur and can be considered a secondary effect. 3

Note that pistol bullets only poke holes in targets; they’re not traveling fast enough to produce major temporary cavities that damage tissue as a rifle bullet would. The temporary cavity of a pistol bullet is smaller and also formed at a much slower speed thus less damage. One must also consider that human tissue has elastic properties, tissue will stretch a lot, and if done so slowly it might not tear. Picture this, shoot a mouse with a .22 and see it explode, then shoot a pig with the same round and see nothing. The energy dumped into both targets is the same; it’s just that the temporary cavity of a .22 is larger than a mouse so the mouse explodes. The temporary cavity of a .22 on a pig is the same size but the pig is much larger and thus not effected as much by it.

Now that that’s out of the way lets discuss how a person or animal is incapacitated by projectile wounding. Their are really two ways the first being massive hemorrhaging (blood loss). This could take some time to incapacitate for their are a number of variable factors….. At what rate is blood loss occurring, what physical state was the target it, is the target pumped up on drugs, mental state etc. The second way to incapacitate is to shut down the central nervous system (CNS). Shutting down the CNS is instant lights out! In short, you can wait for the target to drain and pass out or flip the switch and be instantly out.

Let’s talk about draining the target….

If you want to drain a bucket full of water the bigger the hole you drill in it the faster the water will flow out the bottom. The same thing for humans and animals, however their is no really big difference in flow rates between hole sizes in .35”, .40”, .45”. Yes I know their IS a difference but do the math. Let’s say the bucket has bottom that’s 1.8m2 (average body surface area of a male human is 1.8m2 ), 19.3ft2 , or 2970in2. If you poke a .45” hole in the bottom now .0054% of the surface area is allowing water to escape. If you poke a .35” hole in the bottom .0034% is allowing water to escape. Personally I don’t think their is much difference between .0034% and .0054% in relation to the human body after all it’s only 0.002%!!!8

Their are lots of people who carry .45acp’s because of its “knockdown power” (a retarded term that I’ll dispel later), and because it’s “gona punch a big hole in someone”. What they don’t take into effect is how much recoil your now have to deal with and how limited you are on ammunition. Their are also people who say I’d rather have a bigger round so my chances of hitting a critical CNS spot are higher. Let’s do the math folks, a .45 is only 0.093 bigger than a .357, so you have an extra 0.0465” on either side to hit that critical CNS spot. THAT’S NOT MUCH AT ALL! So in order to get .002% more surface area and an extra 0.093” of diameter you’re adding MUCH HIGHER RECOIL and LIMITING THE NUMBER OF ROUNDS YOU CAN CARRY! Call me nuts but why the hell would you want to do that! Penetration? Yes penetration would be a good reason to consider. The FBI did some extensive tests a number of years ago, the penetration data from 9mm & .45 ACP shot into ballistic gelatin are below.

124gr Speer Gold Dot Penetration: 12.6” FBI Test / 230gr Speer Gold Dot Penetration: 16” FBI Test

As the test data shows the extra weight of the .45 ACP round enables the round to push deeper into the gel then the lighter 9mm. This is a good thing seeing that most American’s are fat… oop’s I mean obese. So depending on what angle your target is at when rounds are in the air you might need all the penetration you can get especially if you’re shooting for center mass and not trying to shut down the CNS. Penetration is also something to consider if you might have to shoot though barriers, windows, drywall, car doors etc. Speed is a good thing, a 9mm 127gr going 1050 is spanked by the .357 Sig (also a 9mm bullet) that’s traveling on average of 200 feet per second faster. Keep in mind that for most folks a good 12” of penetration will get you through the arm and find its way to the heart. Is 16” better, yes…. Is it necessary…. Depends on the situation.

Now let’s talk about shutting down the CNS. This can be done by putting a round into the brain housing group (head) in the brain stem. This is a rather small target when compared to the upper torso. If you’re taught how to shoot correctly you know to keep shooting until the target drops. If you’re attempting to shut down the CNS with a head shot you might miss….. That said wouldn’t you want to get back on target faster for a follow up shot? Would you rather deal with the recoil of a .500 S&W or the recoil of a .22LR? If I’m trying to poke holes in a target that’s small and moving I’d much rather deal with as little recoil as possible while sending a round down range that can penetrate the target and get results.

Ok onto “stopping power” now…. I term that each & every time I hear it I know the person who just uttered said words has no clue what they are talking about. I’m going to insert some work done by the FBI here to save time:

“Psychological factors such as energy deposit, momentum transfer, size of temporary cavity or calculations such as the RII are irrelevant or erroneous. The impact of a bullet upon the body is no more then the recoil of the weapon. The ratio of bullet mass to target mass is too extreme.

The often referred to “knock-down power” implies the ability of a bullet to move its target. This is nothing more then momentum of the bullet. It is the transfer of momentum that will cause a target to move in response to the blow received. “Isaac Newton proved this to be the case mathematically in the 17th Century, and Benjamin Robins verified in experimentally through the invention and us of the ballistic pendulum to determine muzzle velocity by measurement of the pendulum motion.” 4

Goddard amply proves the fallacy of “knock-down power” by calculating the heights (and resultant velocities) from which a one pound weight and a ten pound weight must be dropped to equal the momentum of a 9mm and .45 ACP projectiles at its muzzle velocities, respectively. The results are revealing. In order to equal the impact of a 9mm bullet at its muzzle velocity, a one pound weight must be dropped from a height of 5.96 feet, achieving a velocity of 19.6 fps. To equal the impact of a .45 ACP bullet, the one pound weight needs a velocity of 27.1 fps and must be dropped from a height of 11.4 feet. A ten pound weight equals the impact of a 9mm bullet when dropped from a height of 0.72 INCHES (velocity attained is 1.96 fps), and equals the impact of a .45 when dropped from 1.73 INCHES (achieving a velocity of 2.71 fps). 5

A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years. 6 The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball. 7 The tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time from, i.e., instantaneously.

The human target can be reliably incapacitated only by disrupting or destroying the brain or upper spinal cord. Absent that, incapacitation is subject to a host of variables, the most important of which are beyond the control of the shooter. Incapacitation becomes an eventual event, not necessarily an immediate one. If the psychological factors which can contribute to incapacitation are present, even a minor wound can be immediately incapacitation. If they are not present, incapacitation can be significantly delayed even with major, survivable wounds. “


Ok so if you’re still with me I hope that you have learned something. That way next time you’re on the range or in a gun shop and you see some guy toting a 1911 and spitting out nonsense like “back in Nam” “the .45 would lift a gook of his feet”, “knock-down power” you will instantly identity him as a buffoon.

Long explanation of why I carry a 9mm…. in short, It recoils less, I can poke more holes exactly where I need them- faster and I have more rounds onboard should I need them.

Additional notes 12/30: Hollow-points (HP) are designed to expand at a certain velocity, thus if your hand-cannon launch’s said projectiles at a slower velocity they might not work as designed. Also keep in mind that if you clog a hollow point with clothing, or other materials it might not expand. Hornady recently came up with its Critical DutyTM line of ammunition that’s pre-clogged! They designed it so that it would perform predictably in most barriers shot during the FBI protocol. DON’T EXPECT a HP round to do magic! You’re only poking a hole in a target…. and IF the HP round does expand to cause a larger permanent cavity you don’t want to be sitting around with your thumb up your ass waiting for a target to bleed out. In closing if you can’t find a 9mm that fits your requirements (due to hand size or concealability) ensure that you carry some form of ballistic protection….. A .22 in the pocket is better then nothing!

Semper Fi
Steve

DiMaio, V.J.M.: Gunshot Wounds, Elsevier Science Publishing Company, New Your, NY Chapter 3, Wound Ballistics: 41-49
Fackler, M.L., Malinowski, J.A.: “The Wound Profile: A Visual Method for Quantifying Gunshot Wound Components”, Journal of Trauma 25, 522-529
Fackler, M.L., MD “Missile Caused Wounds”, Letterman Army Institute of Research, Presidio of San Francisco, CA, Report No. 231
Goddard, Stanley: “Some Issues for Consideration in Choosing Between 9mm and .45 ACP Handguns” Battelle Labs, Ballistic Sciences, Ordnance Systems and Technology Section Columbus, OH pages 3-4
Goddard, Stanley: “Some Issues for Consideration in Choosing Between 9mm and .45 ACP Handguns” Battelle Labs, Ballistic Sciences, Ordnance Systems and Technology Section Columbus, OH pages 3-4
Newton, Sir Isaac, Principia Mathematica, 1687 in which stated Newton’s Laws of Motion. The Second Law of Motion states that a body will accelerate, or change its speed, at a rate that is proportional to the force acting upon it. In simpler terms, forever action their is an equal but opposite reaction. The acceleration will of course be inverse proportion to the mass of the body. For example, the same force acting upon a body of twice the mass will produce exactly half the acceleration.
Lindsay, Douglas, MD, Presentation to the Wound Ballistics Workshop, Quantico VA
Reichert, Charles F, Rikert Engineering, Norwood MA



Edited by Steven C Reichert II (01/13/12 04:51 AM)
_________________________
Semper Fi
www.SteveReichert.com
 
I think the main idea of the article is correct - that modern 9mm ammo is sufficient. But it gets a little strawmanny at the end when talking about the knockdown power of .45ACP. No reasonable person thinks that a big heavy bullet literally moves the target back.
 
I think the main idea of the article is correct - that modern 9mm ammo is sufficient. But it gets a little strawmanny at the end when talking about the knockdown power of .45ACP. No reasonable person thinks that a big heavy bullet literally moves the target back.

I have "experienced" shooters in every class who think that their .45 will send the bad guys flying. Physics is not taught in most public schools and not required for most college majors. And theoretical knowledge doesn't always trump years of Hollywood indoctrination.
 
This is all true, but "knock-down" as I speak of it is more based on the idea that my .45 ACP HP delivers more kinetic force to a target than a .22 or even a 9mm HP. My 1911 has better "knock-down" because, let's face it, you get hit with a baseball, you get staggered, but if I flick a marble at you, it'll just sting a bit. As for the principle of "equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down." That is not completely correct either. If I throw a 50 pound bag of concrete at you, that is not enough force exerted to knock me off my feet, but it definitely has the potential to knock the receiver off theirs. The only place that the equal force rules apply is in space, where there are no outside forces acting upon the two bodies interacting. Add to that the fact that the shooter is bracing to fire, and the target cannot physically know when that round is going to be impacting(and therefore unable to brace as effectively) it is not unreasonable to see that one could hit someone else with an object large enough to overpower without themselves being overpowered in it's use.

Well worded article, I would personally carry a 9mm as it is a nice balance of a higher grain round, magazine size, and reduced recoil. I would rather be able to pin point place 15 .22 rounds than be able to get 2 .45 rounds into a target in the same amount of time; though I cannot help but think that intimidation comes into play in this equation as well. A guy coming at me with a knife is going to be far less frightened when staring down a .22 than if I point a .45 in his direction.

Apologies if I got off track. Excellent read, I'll point my fiancee to it as well.
 
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This is all true, but "knock-down" as I speak of it is more based on the idea that my .45 ACP HP delivers more kinetic force to a target than a .22 or even a 9mm HP. My 1911 has better "knock-down" because, let's face it, you get hit with a baseball, you get staggered, but if I flick a marble at you, it'll just sting a bit. As for the principle of "equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down." That is not completely correct either. If I throw a 50 pound bag of concrete at you, that is not enough force exerted to knock me off my feet, but it definitely has the potential to knock the receiver off theirs.

The problem is that if we go by power factor (which basically is a version of F=MA) alone, the 9mm I carry is probably 150 PF. The .45 ACP loads I carry are probably around 200 PF.

That's not even a doubling of power factor. Yes, it is more powerful, but not markedly so. Further, you assume that with ballistics, that all the energy will be transferred to the target in an instantaneous fashion, and that's nothing but pure crap.

BTW, ironically enough a baseball thrown at 65 mph is like 207 PF, making it more "powerful" energy wise than a typical 230 gr defense load in .45.

Bullets stop bad guys by making holes and damaging tissue, not by "knocking people down. "

-Mike
 
... though I cannot help but think that intimidation comes into play in this equation as well. A guy coming at me with a knife is going to be far less frightened when staring down a .22 than if I point a .45 in his direction.

If you have spare time during your attacker's charge, racking your shotgun a few times is more intimidating than flashing your .45.
 
The problem is that if we go by power factor (which basically is a version of F=MA) alone, the 9mm I carry is probably 150 PF. The .45 ACP loads I carry are probably around 200 PF.

That's not even a doubling of power factor. Yes, it is more powerful, but not markedly so. Further, you assume that with ballistics, that all the energy will be transferred to the target in an instantaneous fashion, and that's nothing but pure crap.

BTW, ironically enough a baseball thrown at 65 mph is like 207 PF, making it more "powerful" energy wise than a typical 230 gr defense load in .45.

Bullets stop bad guys by making holes and damaging tissue, not by "knocking people down. "

-Mike

*Edit : I am so un-informed, it hurts, so this gets snipped*

That being said, unless the person is VERY determined to do whatever it is that made you squeeze the trigger in the first place, even a .22 is enough to dissuade most that they need to pause and make some life choices. No matter what the science says or how many argue whichever way, it all comes down to personal preference. *Snip* I make no claims at being any sort of expert in any of this, I am just offering up my viewpoint and leeching off others insights to become better informed, my experience with handguns is rudimentary at best, but my understanding of physics is very good and what I am being told here does not yet add up in my head. Maybe I am misreading something in the op, I'll re-read it and see if I missed something.
 
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If you have spare time during your attacker's charge, racking your shotgun a few times is more intimidating than flashing your .45.
If someone is in my house, the first thing they will hear IS my shotgun racking; The .45 is the sidearm to the shotgun for HD, not the primary.[smile]
 
Well, just doing a rudimentary search, it appears that I am mistaken entirely. The 9mm Parabellum round vs the .45 ACP:

.45 ACP
ManufacturerLoadMassVelocityEnergyExpansion[SUP][10][/SUP]Penetration[SUP][10][/SUP]PC[SUP][10][/SUP]TSC[SUP][10][/SUP]
FederalHydraShok JHP15 g (230 gr)260 m/s (850 ft/s)500 J (369 ft·lb)20 mm (0.78 in)300 mm (12.0 in)93.9 mL (5.73 cu in)465 mL (28.4 cu in)
RemingtonGolden Saber JHP15 g (230 gr)267 m/s (875 ft/s)530 J (391 ft·lb)19 mm (0.75 in)360 mm (14.3 in)103.6 mL (6.32 cu in)416 mL (25.4 cu in)
Cor-BonJHP12.0 g (185 gr)350 m/s (1,150 ft/s)738 J (544 ft·lb)18 mm (0.7 in)290 mm (11.3 in)71.3 mL (4.35 cu in)469 mL (28.6 cu in)
WinchesterSilvertip JHP12.0 g (185 gr)300 m/s (1,000 ft/s)557 J (411 ft·lb)20 mm (0.79 in)300 mm (12.0 in)96.4 mL (5.88 cu in)495 mL (30.2 cu in)
WinchesterRanger SXT15 g (230 gr)270 m/s (900 ft/s)561 J (414 ft·lb)20 mm (0.78 in)330 mm (13 in)101.8 mL (6.21 cu in)416 mL (25.4 cu in)
RemingtonFMJ15 g (230 gr)255 m/s (835 ft/s)483 J (356 ft·lb)11 mm (0.45 in)690 mm (27 in)70.3 mL (4.29 cu in)150 mL (9 cu in)

9mm Parabellum
ManufacturerLoadMassVelocityEnergyExpansion[SUP][23][/SUP]Penetration[SUP][23][/SUP]PC[SUP][23][/SUP]TSC[SUP][23][/SUP]
Cor-BonJHP7.5 g (115 gr)410 m/s (1,350 ft/s)630 J (465 ft·lb)14 mm (0.55 in)360 mm (14.2 in)56 mL (3.4 cu in)631 mL (38.5 cu in)
SpeerGold Dot JHP8.0 g (124 gr)400 m/s (1,310 ft/s)640 J (472 ft·lb)18 mm (0.70 in)337 mm (13.25 in)84 mL (5.1 cu in)616 mL (37.6 cu in) (est)
FederalHydraShok JHP +P+8.0 g (124 gr)370 m/s (1,220 ft/s)560 J (410 ft·lb)17 mm (0.67 in)340 mm (13.4 in)77 mL (4.7 cu in)734 mL (44.8 cu in)
RemingtonGolden Saber JHP9.5 g (147 gr)300 m/s (990 ft/s)430 J (320 ft·lb)16 mm (0.62 in)370 mm (14.5 in)72 mL (4.4 cu in)544 mL (33.2 cu in)
WinchesterSilvertip7.5 g (115 gr)373 m/s (1,225 ft/s)519 J (383 ft·lb)18 mm (0.72 in)200 mm (8.0 in)54 mL (3.3 cu in)274 mL (16.7 cu in)
WinchesterWWB JHP9.5 g (147 gr)300 m/s (990 ft/s)430 J (320 ft·lb)15 mm (0.58 in)400 mm (15.9 in)69 mL (4.2 cu in)321 mL (19.6 cu in)
WinchesterFMJ7.5 g (115 gr)352 m/s (1,155 ft/s)462 J (341 ft·lb)9.1 mm (0.36 in)620 mm (24.5 in)41 mL (2.5 cu in)174 mL (10.6 cu in)

Expansion: expanded bullet diameter (ballistic gelatin).
Penetration: penetration depth (ballistic gelatin).
PC: permanent cavity volume (ballistic gelatin, FBI method).
TSC: temporary stretch cavity volume (ballistic gelatin).

The 9mm appears to match in almost all respects when it comes to permanent cavity and temporary cavity, though the .45 does have a slight edge in PC while the 9mm has better TSC... I see a CC .9 mm in my future.

This is actually a bit of a shock to me, since a slower, larger round would seem like it should do more damage than a lighter, faster round, if only because the tissues have more time to get caught in the transfer of kinetic forces... but at 900+ FPS, I guess the tissues natural elasticity doesn't really come into play?

Do you have any other books you can cite besides the ones you listed at the end of your initial post? I need to read so as to not get caught with incorrect information in the future.
 
Scarecrow said:
*Edit : I am so un-informed, it hurts, so this gets snipped*

That being said, unless the person is VERY determined to do whatever it is that made you squeeze the trigger in the first place, even a .22 is enough to dissuade most that they need to pause and make some life choices.

A gun is a tool not a talisman. The perp may run away at the sight of a gun, but he also may not. Furthermore, most all handguns that are typically carried concealed are very weak. At LFI-1, Ayoob said that in the US about 80% of people shot with a handgun survive, but about 80% of people shot with a long gun die.

Too many gun owners spend endless amounts of time debating the best handgun, caliber, and ammunition. That effort would be far better spent practicing, either at the range or dry firing. The difference in effectiveness between typical calibers is far, far less important than whether you hit the perp and where you hit him.
 
I think the Central Idea of article is correct that Modern 9mm Ammo is sufficient. I will personally carry a 9mm as it is a nice balance of a higher grain round, magazine size.

Guerilla Marketing
 
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This gets asked of me all the time, (what caliber should I carry). My answer is the same every time, and I revert to a quote I heard years ago and swear by, "I would rather get shot in the foot with a .44 magnum than in the eye with a .22." Shot placement, in my belief, is way more important so get to the range and practice........and try to add stress to your trigger time.
 
I am 60 years old and am also a Marine
Steve Reichert had a career that I would of killed for (I joined the Marines, to see the world!).
Besides my primary MOS, I was allowed to join a Marine pistol team.
I spent at least 3 years drilling holes with a Quantico Armory accurized Colt 1911 and a SW 41.
1000 rounds per month each caliber. There was always someone better than me.
40 some years later, I am real comfortable with the 1911, and G22, 27.

I think if you
Carry a .22, shoot em in the eye (avoid bone).
Carry a .45, shoot em between the eyes.
Carry a 9 mm, etc, etc. Hell, throw a rock, hit your target!
What is the target? Make it precise, 6 inches down from the chin, 1 inch right of the sternum (explode the pericardium).
Do your job perfectly, every time, so nobody has to follow, repairing, and God forbid, critique your work.
If you are a LEO, CCW, the bar of excellence is higher than is expected of the thundering herd.

Feel free to disagree, there are a plethora of folks in that crowd.
Rick
 
So you really 'think" that most people are 32" across (needing 16" of penetration at the level of the heart)? :) Wow, man. I'm a pretty big guy, and 10" of penetration is going thru my arm, my lung, and putting a hole in "only one side" of my heart. The fact is, if you don't shoot a guy from the front, you'll get what Geo Z got, most likely. years of hassles and expense trying to stay "un sued" out of ever dime you ever make. I don't want more than 10" of penetration (in flesh and blood animals). I dont care what happens in jello blocks.
 
The author assumed a .45 ACP was a single stack 1911... That's like assuming all hunters are stupid hicks. Sure, some are, but there's more than that out there. I own a single stack 1911 (race-gun) as well as a high capacity 1911 (15 loaded per mag). Sure, it's not the 30+ that some people put into their [IMO, ugly] Glocks, but if you NEED that many rounds, there's something wrong. Of course, if you live in a restrictive state (like MA) chances are you're limited to 10 rounds per mag anyway. Thus capacity is no longer an issue.

I grew up shooting a .45, so the recoil is no big deal. IF you know how to shoot, just about any pistol can be easily managed. If you work on tuning your pistol, then recoil can be controlled even more. I wouldn't dream of taking a pistol from the store and then carry it for protection. 99.5% chance at least some work will be done to it before I'd consider either carrying it, or shooting it regularly.

BTW, I know people that shoot competition (USPSC/IPSC) with 9mm and 38 super that have to do a LOT more work to keep their pistols under control. Mostly due with needing to increase the projectile velocity in order to make major power factor. With a 'heavy' .45 ACP projectile (I was using 255 grain FMJ) I didn't have to move it very fast at all (~725fps was more than enough). Once the people with 9mm and 38 super wanted to make major PF, they had to put comps onto their pistols. Which put them into the 'open' class (harder scoring). I was able to stay in the 'limited' class (appears almost stock). Most people don't consider the character of the recoil from a round. IMO, the .45 ACP has a softer recoil compared with 9mm and 38 super.
 
so who says that you have to 'make major" in order to have an adequately performing rd? a 22 Hornet rifle, out where the bullet hits the coyote, say, at 75 yds (and it does so quite adequately, at such a range) only has 2400 fps left to its 45 gr (old style sphp) bullet. That is powerfactor that's the same as 90 grs at 1200 fps, or 120 grs at 900 fps, but the very high impact velocity gives the Hornet 600 ft lbs. I helped set up the IPSC, and believe me, it was and is set up to favor the 1911 .45, in every possible way. We orignally required a 185 factor recoil, like .45 ball, which the 9mm had no hope of matching (on purpose) and which the 38 Super needed very special ammo to make (ie, 160 gr lrn, at nearly 1200 fps. The big, heavy, slow bullets are not very effective at all. They've just lots of lies told about them over the last 150 years, that's all.
 
.45 cause I don't wanna shoot twice .

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.

In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes.

When the suspect bent down to peer under the car, Gramins carefully established a sight picture, and squeezed off three controlled bursts in rapid succession.

Each round slammed into the suspect’s head — one through each side of his mouth and one through the top of his skull into his brain. At long last the would-be cop killer crumpled to the pavement.

The whole shootout had lasted 56 seconds, Gramins said. The assailant had fired 21 rounds from his two handguns. Inexplicably — but fortunately — he had not attempted to employ an SKS semi-automatic rifle that was lying on his front seat ready to go.

Gramins had discharged 33 rounds. Four remained in his magazine.

...
Remarkably, the gunman was still showing vital signs when EMS arrived. Sheer determination, it seemed, kept him going, for no evidence of drugs or alcohol was found in his system.
 
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because he knows that he's a panic prone punk? Wth makes guys think that they are so exceptional, that they can't miss, won't flinch when guns blast off, that only one guy will attack them, etc? Where do you get the crystal ball? As if you really would bother to ccw such an abortion, of course. That's the only way to have any reasonable expectation of having a gun when you need one. Carry it always and everywhere, like insurance. Nobody buys insurance that's only good some of the time! sheesh.
 
because he knows that he's a panic prone punk? Wth makes guys think that they are so exceptional, that they can't miss, won't flinch when guns blast off, that only one guy will attack them, etc? Where do you get the crystal ball? As if you really would bother to ccw such an abortion, of course. That's the only way to have any reasonable expectation of having a gun when you need one. Carry it always and everywhere, like insurance. Nobody buys insurance that's only good some of the time! sheesh.

wth are you responding to
 
I like the 9mm but I am sure in due time I will have most all the calibers, next will be a 22 for fun at the range and then onto a nice 45 for some power.

Tim ~ [grin]
 
both the idiot carrying 145 rds and the clowns who think that being limited to 1 rd per second (due to recoil), that's who.
 
both the idiot carrying 145 rds and the clowns who think that being limited to 1 rd per second (due to recoil), that's who.

Who's that?? If you're not man enough to handle a .45, then get something smaller. IF you can handle a .45, then do so if you wish. Dismissing a round due to perceived recoil is just foolish.

BTW, in a 'real world situation' then chances of you actually needing to fire faster is extremely remote. Since you have a finite number of rounds on you at a time, you should practice trigger discipline. Doing the old 'spray and pray' will only get you into trouble (or killed). It's akin to the stupid punks that hold the pistol sideways and expect to hit something.
 
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