Can I carry in Boston Hospitals?

[depicts]

Can I carry at places like University Hospital? It's part of Boston Medical Center, but part of a School of Medicine.

Same question for other hospitals, especially teaching hospitals. Are they considered "Schools".

I've never noticed any signs. I go in town to the hospitals a lot, transporting friends and relatives who need the ride. I make it a rule to carry in Boston, but it just occurred to me that this MIGHT be an "issue"

Yes, concealed is concealed, and no one knows... I'm just curious.

 

[Bassturd]

Can I carry at places like University Hospital? It's part of Boston Medical Center, but part of a School of Medicine.

Same question for other hospitals, especially teaching hospitals. Are they considered "Schools".

I've never noticed any signs. I go in town to the hospitals a lot, transporting friends and relatives who need the ride. I make it a rule to carry in Boston, but it just occurred to me that this MIGHT be an "issue"

Yes, concealed is concealed, and no one knows... I'm just curious.

That's a really interesting POV you are providing, and I wonder how many here subscribe to that POV. I understand you do not necessarily look at it that way.

It really makes it difficult to play the "law abiding gun owners" card when the gun owners consider that if they don't get caught carrying illegally then it won't matter.

I am not trying to condemn you for this. I just wonder how many people share this POV.

Do "law abiding gun owners" define themselves by what other crimes they do not commit, but not by committing a crime violating what they consider to be an inane firearms law so long as nobody catches them?

There are no flames here from me, just an honest question form someone that has been disallowed a license to carry concealed at this time.

 

[Mike-Mike]

I use the rule. If there are BU police I call it a campus. If not .....

 

[joehaus]

It really makes it difficult to play the "law abiding gun owners" card when the gun owners consider that if they don't get caught carrying illegally then it won't matter.

I don't think that is what he is suggesting. I think it was included so people don't post "well if it's concealed?"

 

[vellnueve]

He's saying that to pre-empt the 15-20 people who will come on here and make noise about just carrying anyway.

As for hospitals, I'd say that you'd want to avoid the primary teaching hospitals. Tufts MC, Boston MC, MGH, BIDMC, and BWH.

Although the school may not legally own the school, you'll find that most or all of the doctors there are faculty at the schools, and that teaching actively takes place there. I wouldn't risk it.

 

[BillK]

In this case I would not carry a firearm or a blade object. If anything I would carry a chemical.

 

[Bassturd]

I don't think that is what he is suggesting. I think it was included so people don't post "well if it's concealed?"

He's saying that to pre-empt the 15-20 people who will come on here and make noise about just carrying anyway.

I understand what he is saying and why he is saying it. I am questioning the mindset that leads to the necessity of making the statement.

Whether it be Depicts, you, me, someone else, apparently there is a faction among "law abiding gun owners" as we like to call ourselves that believe that it's okay to ignore this law so long as nobody sees your concealed weapon. I am not questioning Depicts judgment directly, I am throwing the question out to the wind because of his statement. How do we call ourselves law abiding gun owners if we will just choose to ignore carry laws that we don't agree with?

 

[vellnueve]

Ask them. I don't understand that mindset either.

 

[jar]

I personally use 'concealed means concealed' when carrying goes against a POLICY, but not when it's against the LAW. If someone comes on and says, should I carry in this posted mall in MA or NH where signs have no legal power, I'll say concealed means concealed. If someone says, should I carry in this 30.06 posted mall in TX, I'll say no, that's against the law. Write them a letter saying you won't shop there until the signs come down.

 

[vellnueve]

Well, in this case, the medical schools (and probably their primary teaching hospitals) are covered by MGL 269.

 

[Len-2A Training]

"Schools" are just that. A dedicated facility recognized by an accreditation board SPECIFICALLY for teaching something.

Hospitals (or doctors) that are affiliated with medical schools are not "schools"!

Just because a college purchases a hospital does not make it into a "school" . . . any more than the Fleet Center is a "bank"!

My local doctor (1 person office) frequently has an intern from a local nursing program . . . that doesn't make his office into a "school".

Every job I've ever had involved current employees "teaching" new employees in the methods and procedures of that business. That doesn't make it a "school". [Thus, because a med student is learning while working in a hospital doesn't convert the hospital into a school any more than when I was an NU engineering co-op student working at Raytheon, Brockton Edison, Masoneilon . . . those companies didn't become "schools" either.]

My Wife works for one of those largest medical conglomerates in Boston and I can tell you that it would be quite a stretch for anyone to claim that the hospitals are "schools".

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Bill, I wouldn't worry about it, only the VA Hospitals would be legally off-limits for CCW in this neck of the woods. I've been in and around probably all the hospitals in Boston at one time or another, so I am familiar with those facilities. [Having never stepped foot on the UMass Hospital property in the Worcester area, I can't address that particular facility.]

---------------

IANAL!!

 

[vellnueve]

Well, all the primary teaching hospitals are specifically dedicated to teaching...

If you go the police route, i've noticed that the respective university PDs do patrol the hospitals.

 

[Jaxon]

Hospitals (or doctors) that are affiliated with medical schools are not "schools"!

+1.

 

[Jaxon]

Well, all the primary teaching hospitals are specifically dedicated to teaching...

If you go the police route, i've noticed that the respective university PDs do patrol the hospitals.

No, they're specifically dedicated to being a hospital.

 

[vellnueve]

Well, you've heard both arguments, so make your call.

And be cautious, because if you walk through the wrong doors, you will DEFINITELY be in violation of MGL269 as there are many direct connections between the various school buildings and their hospitals.

If you're not careful, you could easily end up on school grounds without knowing it.

 

[Len-2A Training]

No, they're specifically dedicated to being a hospital.

+1

----------------

If one is a "nervous Nelly" about carrying because someone might mis-interpret the law and the intent of the law, my suggestion is just leave your guns, knives, sharp wit, and any other item that could be mis-construed as a weapon at home at all times.

It's bad enough out there without us making up "laws" where there are none.

There are LEOs out there who genuinely believe that guns NOT on the EOPS List are ILLEGAL to possess, that ALL hi-cap mags are ILLEGAL to possess, that all ARs are ILLEGAL to possess, that all mgs are ILLEGAL to possess, that every gun you own MUST be "registered", that possessing a BB/pellet/Airsoft gun w/o a license is ILLEGAL, etc. If we spend our time worrying about all these possible mis-interpretations, we'll all end up in the loony bin and become statutorily DQ'd from ever possessing any firearms or anything with a sharp point on it!

 

[KMaurer]

That's a really interesting POV you are providing, and I wonder how many here subscribe to that POV. I understand you do not necessarily look at it that way.

It really makes it difficult to play the "law abiding gun owners" card when the gun owners consider that if they don't get caught carrying illegally then it won't matter.

I am not trying to condemn you for this. I just wonder how many people share this POV.

I don't know that this is actually the OP's POV as much as it is your spin on it. I'd interpret his post as asking about what seems to be a huge gray area in gun laws (i.e., what exactly constitutes "school property", complicated by colleges and universities owning a huge amount of real estate and a large number of buildings, including rental property and hospitals). The "concealed means concealed" part is more likely something along the line of "I know that, since I carry concealed, this most likely would never pose a problem for me, but I'm still interested in obeying the law as long as I have some idea of what it is."

Ken

 

[KMaurer]

"Schools" are just that. A dedicated facility recognized by an accreditation board SPECIFICALLY for teaching something.

Sorry, Len, but as I noted in another post, there's no such thing. There are schools that are accredited by some recognized body, and others that aren't. The state licenses schools, so that's almost certainly the key. The problem is that both the state and the accrediting bodies focus entirely on programs. Facilities are only relevant to the extent that taken in total, they're adequate for the program.

Ken

 

[Len-2A Training]

No disagreement Ken. I was trying to "broad brush" paint by using the terms "accreditation board" and "facilities". Public schools, parochial schools and others are probably licensed/accredited in some other way. In the vernacular, most probably think of the "facility" as "accredited" vs the curriculum . . . incorrect, but understandable.

 

[depicts]

I don't know that this is actually the OP's POV as much as it is your spin on it.

...The "concealed means concealed" part is more likely something along the line of "I know that, since I carry concealed, this most likely would never pose a problem for me, but I'm still interested in obeying the law as long as I have some idea of what it is."

Ken

Bassturd, you ask an interesting question. I think Kens point above nails it for me. You see I have been to these hospitals MANY times while carrying, and it just occurred to me that some of them may in fact be schools. I wanted to insure I did NOT break any law by carrying in what I thought was a legal environment.

For instance, I take my wife to Brigham and Womans. No problem, I've carried there several times. Right across the street is Harvard Medical School. If I walk on their sidewalk am I in violation? Where is the border? If I secure my firearm in my locked trunk in a case, and the Valet parking service parks it across the street on Harvard property, am I a felon?

I don't want to avoid following the law. I was asking the question because I want to follow the law. The "concealed is concealed" comment means I know I can "get away" with it if I want to, the question is, is it legal. I ALWAYS want to follow the legal course, no matter how archaic the laws can be sometimes. The permit to carry if far too important and valuable to me to risk its loss over some dumb misunderstanding.

I drive disabled Veterans to several area hospitals as well. When I have to go to the VA Hospital, I know I can't carry, and I don't. It just gets really confusing some times.

For instance, Massachusetts considers Pepper Spray as "Ammunition". Rhode Island does not. I carry pepper spray when I go to the Providence VA Hospital and it is not a problem. Half the staff carries it too. If you know Chalkstone Avenue, you know why. There is no Fed law against it. It is not considered a weapon. I also carry my pocket knife. I always carry a pocket knife because I'm so old my teeth won't open potato chip bags and candy bar wrappers any more. I don't even think of it as a weapon, it's my good teeth. I use the knife a dozen times a day for convenience, not defense.

Now say I have to go to the Harvard School of Medicine, or Tufts, and I have my pepper spray on my key chain. Am I in compliance in a hospital school? Probably not.

I ask the question because it just dawned on me that one of the hospitals I go to is Boston Medical center, part of which is called "University Hospital." I spent months there watching my father fade away. I'd be driving home with my Mom late at night many times, going to the parking garage and then out to Mass Ave and Columbus Ave to catch the Pike.

It's funny when all of a sudden you question something you take for granted, but I want to know. I've been carrying for years, and have NEVER been noticed. It's not a question of getting caught, it's a question of doing the right thing.

Those of us who have a license to carry have to hold ourselves to higher standards than the non licensed citizen. Crime statistics show we are far more law abiding than the general population. That doesn't come from "knowing we can get away with it."

Ken, thanks for your answer, and LenS always appreciate your insight. Several others have different opinions, and we'll talk about it some more I bet.

In the meantime I'll try to contact someone at the Hospitals security staff and see if I can get an answer without hiring an attorney each time I need to know.

Thanks for all the replies.

Bill

 

[Tater]

FORGET ALL OTHER POSTS! IT'S BOSTON... CARRY! Mumbles already took away most boston citizens rights, fool the bad guys by actually being able to defend yourself. As long as the building doesn't say College, or University in the title go ahead. I feel it is safer on your person then locked in your car in boston. There are more auto thefts then kidnappings. They are less likeley to get another stolen gun on the streets if i'm carrying it.

 

[vellnueve]

That whole post deserves a +5 or so.

Doing things legally is what allows us to call ourselves law-abiding gun owners.

I don't know the layout of BMC, but I do believe that parts of it are interconnected with the actual physical plant of the BU medical and dental schools. FWIW, the entire institution, not just the University hospital, are BU affiliates.

 

[vellnueve]

As long as the building doesn't say College, or University in the title go ahead.

That is very bad advice.

 

[joehaus]

Tater:

I'm confused. The question is about carrying in teaching hospitals associated with schools. And you say "carry" but also

As long as the building doesn't say College, or University in the title go ahead.

So......University of Massachusetts Medical Ctr.

What are you suggesting?

 

[hicksonj]

I do not know of any case law that addresses the question of whether carrying in a teaching hospital violates MGL 269 Sec. 10(j). The important question is... do you want to be that case law.

 

[Tater]

Tater:

I'm confused. The question is about carrying in teaching hospitals associated with schools. And you say "carry" but also

So......University of Massachusetts Medical Ctr.

What are you suggesting?

university-- I wouldn't cary.

I meant for the first part of my post to be taken as a joke.. saying carry anyways just because boston has neutered it's residents from legally carrying and how out of control crime is because of this.

In my mind if it is a building that says college, university I would not want to be the one who is cited in case law 5 years from now as the answer to this question for losing their LTC for doing so.

 

[depicts]

That is very bad advice.

Mr Velllnueve, that's sure one thing we agree on. That was bad advice from "tater".

I thought I DID say "University Hospital", but that's only the beginning of how wrong Tater is. Not a good example of a legal gun owner.

Tater, I know you heart is in the right place, but we're talking "Letter of the law" here, and BASSTURD asked a very precise, almost accusatory question, and it needs a correct answer.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Bill,

Contacting security at any hospital is not going to get you the legal answer.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that every hospital you call will tell you it is "illegal" or "forbidden" . . . even if they aren't affiliated with any college.

It's kinda like asking a cop about MA gun laws! Lots more personal biases get thrown in than actual law.

 

[M1911]

Contacting security at any hospital is not going to get you the legal answer.

I have to agree with Len. If you contact the hospital police (and at MGH, at least, they are police), they will say "NO!".

 

[M1911]

get away[/I]" with it if I want to, the question is, is it legal. I ALWAYS want to follow the legal course, no matter how archaic the laws can be sometimes.

I agree completely. +1 rep point added.