Can Police Carry Automatic Knives on duty in Mass

uziduzit

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Anybody know if we can carry auto knives on duty in mass? And if yes, where is it written in the law?
 
Define automatic.

Definition of Automatic knife: A spring operated blade, either front or side opening, which mechanically extends from the handle via manipulation of a button or a lever. A switchblade.
 
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Definition of Automatic knife: A spring operated blade, either front or side opening, which mechanically extends from the handle via manipulation of a button or a lever. A switchblade.[rolleyes]

Not sure if you're getting a ****ing attitude with me, but if you're on the job you should know the law. No. That would be illegal. You can carry an assisted open knife like anyone else. Its not automatic, but some officers might not understand it. There is no law exempting you from it.

Not that it makes any difference. Any tac folder with a thumb screw can be opened so fast, sheep think its a switchblade.
 
I wasn't trying to be an a-hole, I just though the "auto" explained it. I've talked to a few fellow officers who say differently. According to them cops and active duty military are exempt from these restrictions. I also spoke to Microtech and they confirmed that police officers can carry an automatic knife on duty in most states, they just weren't sure if Massachusetts was one of them. That's why I'm looking for something in writing that covers this in the MGL law books. BTW, I'm an 18 year veteran and a sergeant, and I'll be the first to tell you that cops are the worst people to ask about definition of laws. I don't know how many times every officer I know has had to pull out their law books to find which charges apply to an arrest they just made.
 
Read MGL C. 269 S. 10 (b)

The answer to your question hinges on the wording ". . . except as provided by law . . ."

IANAL, but I would guess that if it was department issued, you'd probably be OK. If not authorized by your chief (and I'd want to see it in writing if I were you), I'd say that you were on very shaky ground.

Not that this means anything but an alleged MSP Trooper threatened to arrest a Federal LEO for carrying one on duty in a thread on MassCops. It got downright ugly and that is when I decided to quit the forum for good and notified Gil (owner) and a Mod that I was friendly with that I was leaving and they could deactivate my account.
 
I saw that exception sentence too, but where does it list these exceptions in the law, I have yet been able to find it.

Sec 269.10b lists all dangerous weapons including a "switch knife" which cannot be carried in the state of Massachusetts, "except as provided by law."

Then in the below section 269.10J the statute reads that Police officers are EXEMPT from the restriction on carrying firearms or ANY DANGEROUS WEAPONS on school grounds. So according to this section cops are allowed to carry any dangerous weapon including a switch blade, as defined in 269.10b, on school grounds. So logic would dictate that if cops can then carry a switch blade on school grounds, then we probably can carry it everywhere else too. But when have laws ever been logical?
 
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I saw that exception sentence too, but where does it list these exceptions in the law, I have yet been able to find.

My searching of MGLs sucks tonight. Here's what I was looking for and I think answers your question . . .

The MGL (pretty sure it is in C. 41) that outlines the duties of a police officer. IIRC, it said something to the effect of "and shall carry such equipment/weapons as authorized by the department/chief". I can not find it and I can't spend any more time looking for it now, so perhaps you can search for it and get the answer from that. If I'm remembering it correctly, if your chief orders you to carry stinger missiles, then you would be covered. [laugh]
 
Not sure if you're getting a ****ing attitude with me, but if you're on the job you should know the law. No. That would be illegal. You can carry an assisted open knife like anyone else. Its not automatic, but some officers might not understand it. There is no law exempting you from it.

Not that it makes any difference. Any tac folder with a thumb screw can be opened so fast, sheep think its a switchblade.

I got attitude off that post as well. If you're going to ask a question, do it in a nice manner to get a better response. I'd stay away from switchblades and just use a spring assisted knife like a Buck Impulse.
 
I got attitude off that post as well. If you're going to ask a question, do it in a nice manner to get a better response. I'd stay away from switchblades and just use a spring assisted knife like a Buck Impulse.

An assisted opening knife is great, but I probably would not recommend the Buck "Impulse" as a duty knife that may be used for self defense due to the slick metal body. Blood is slicker than baby oil, and while that knife is definitely nice looking, there is a real good chance of your hand slipping right over the body and onto the blade as soon as it and you get bloody.
 
I never thought of it that way. I have 5 different models and I use them all the time. I don't carry a knife with my CCW, but I guess I should. Buck makes the best knives IMHO and I am sure there is one good duty knife in there.
 
Pepper spray and / or a Glock? Never bring a knife to a gun fight. Not understanding the knife thing..

I look at the lock-blade knife as a tool, not a weapon.

Since this was long ago, I used to carry a folding, lock-blade Buck knife in a sheath on my duty belt. One day one of our local moonbats questioned me on "why does a police officer have to carry a knife?" I responded with "to cut a seatbelt to get someone out of a car wreck" and that made her happy . . . but it is also the truth from my perspective. There are good fighting knives out there but most lock-blade knives indeed have slippery surfaces (rough surface would destroy your uniform/clothes quickly) and really don't do the job.
 
I wasn't trying to be an a-hole, I just though the "auto" explained it. I've talked to a few fellow officers who say differently. According to them cops and active duty military are exempt from these restrictions. I also spoke to Microtech and they confirmed that police officers can carry an automatic knife on duty in most states, they just weren't sure if Massachusetts was one of them. That's why I'm looking for something in writing that covers this in the MGL law books. BTW, I'm an 18 year veteran and a sergeant, and I'll be the first to tell you that cops are the worst people to ask about definition of laws. I don't know how many times every officer I know has had to pull out their law books to find which charges apply to an arrest they just made.

Fair enough Sarge. Sorry to snap. 6 beers deep and a bad day.

Like I said, I think there are enough quality spring assist knives out there that are more than adequate. Just stick with those. If the idea is to be able to open one handed. It does the trick.
 
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Its all good 5-0 my bad, I'm a sarcastic bastard and sometimes it gets the best of me.

A knife is a good tool to have on the duty belt, you never know when you will need to finish cutting a poorly cut bagel. Seriously though, if a perp gets a hold of your holstered firearm, we are taught to use one hand to cradle the holster to prevent access to the firearm, and the second hand is to thwart off the attack. In our policy & procedure manual, it states that we can use "any object of immediate means.." to protect ourselves in this case. I would say an automatic knife is much easier to deploy in this scanario with one hand than any folding knife on the market.
 
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I have 5 different switchblades, collected over the years. I also have a CRKT which I carry every day. I can open it just as fast one handed.
 
You should check out the Gerber 06 Auto, absolutely fantastic knife in my opinion, very solid and dependable with a fantastic grip. I think it would make a great carry for you. The auto comes with a nice heavy nylon sheath, the "civilian" version is a spring assist model and doesn't come with a sheath.

http://www.gerbergear.com/Military/Knives/06-Automatic-Knife_22-01055DS
 
I was thinking for a tool purpose as well it would be good to have a knife. Not the ol "knife to a gun fight". But to cut anything from seatbelts to clothing etc(even bagels haha)a buddy of mine had a switch blade on his work belt, he checked into his luggage. They came up to the gate with three armed cops and pulled him out of the gate are and cuffed him. that was in San jose Ca travelling home for xmas. It ended up costing him about 5 grand in lawyers and flights to make it dissapear.
 
Nothing deploys as fast as a fixed blade; it's already out. What about one of the Ka-Bar TDI knives? They were invented for the very purpose you stated above.

Yup, I carry a TDI on my inner belt right behind my mag pouch on my offhand side. In the event of an attempted grap, the right hand clamps down on the gun, and the left hand draws out the knife.
 
Nothing deploys as fast as a fixed blade; it's already out. What about one of the Ka-Bar TDI knives? They were invented for the very purpose you stated above.

This would be my recommendation too for a defensive knife. Grip less likely to slip if wet with blood. Can clip on trousers behind the duty belt.
 
Pepper spray and / or a Glock? Never bring a knife to a gun fight. Not understanding the knife thing..

You can't cut an car accident victim out of their seatbelt with a Glock and pepper spray

Well, on second thought, I suppose you could...
 
Getting back to the original question, I believe a policeman can carry a switchblade. There is a Mass case law that basically held the purpose of 269-10 was not to blanketly outlaw certain items, but considering the purpose of why it was carried is key. Esentially if the item had legitimate purpose for being carried it was covered. At the time I researched this I was SCUBA diving and had a double edged diver's knife. The double edged knife is a legitimate tool for diving. Carrying it under those circumstances is not the same as carrying it on your person in a shady bar. Having said that, if a policeman chose to carry one because they felt the quick access it provided was necessary (for lack of a beter word) then according to case law it should be covered.

I believe the case is Comm. V. Miller circa 1980 or 1986 (I am not sure if it was an Appeals Case or a SJC case.)

Dave
 
I just checked this case. It is COMMONWEALTH vs. STEPHEN MILLER. (22 Mass. App. Ct. 694) a 1986 case.

In that case the court was evaluating a "dirk" knife not a switch blade. There they stated of 269-10 "That purpose is to outlaw the carrying of those knives which are primarily designed for stabbing human beings or for other unlawful objectives." Though this case did not rule on all circumstances a switch blade (or other knives under 269-10) could be carried, they referenced switch blades, double edged, stilettos, and daggers as being designed to stab human beings. Based on that phrase, I would think absent other influencing factors, a switch blade is generally illegal for police to carry. However, if a policeman carrying one argues it isn't realistic to think he is carrying one with the legitimate purpose to stab a person or commit another illegal act with it, then they might be able to. I guess the answer lies with the judge.

Dave
 
It all comes down to one simple question: Is it worth the hassle? As LenS stated, you might come across a trooper (90% are a**h***s) who will get a kick out of jamming you up for something as stupid as carrying a switchblade. He will also probably run right to the nearest computer in the station and post about it on trashcops.com just to get his BJ from the dispatchers and guards that frequent that site.

Aside from the cool factor, there is really no benefit to an auto. Most quality folders are just as easy to open and are stronger.
 
It all comes down to one simple question: Is it worth the hassle? As LenS stated, you might come across a trooper (90% are a**h***s) who will get a kick out of jamming you up for something as stupid as carrying a switchblade. He will also probably run right to the nearest computer in the station and post about it on trashcops.com just to get his BJ from the dispatchers and guards that frequent that site.

Aside from the cool factor, there is really no benefit to an auto. Most quality folders are just as easy to open and are stronger.

Another factor to consider . . .

If I am using a knife to cut a seatbelt and free a trapped accident victim . . . ask yourself if you want the dull side or sharp side against the victim while I"m cutting with the other side??? [shocked]
 
This has nothing to do with whats, "Legal" or not but is just an FYI, "This happened to me" thing. I normally carry a http://sogknives.com/store/FSA-98.html in my right front pant pocket. In the RIGHT pocket it places the blade against the seam of your pants. (IE with the lock off, holding the blade in place.) Earlier this Summer I decided to pocket carry in my right front pocket so I placed the SOG in my LEFT front pocket, unlocked. (blade facing forward.) At some point, with out me feeling it, the blade partially deployed. I got VERY lucky as I happened to reach into my pocket slowly for some loose change. All I got was a small cut on one finger. The tip of the blade actually poked a hole through my pocket and was stuck open ! Call it stupidity, operator error, carelessness or whatever, but it happened. Just figured I'd let you guys know so it doesn't happen to you..
 
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Read MGL C. 269 S. 10 (b)...

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter269/Section10
...
(b) Whoever, except as provided by law, carries on his person, or carries on his person or under his control in a vehicle, any stiletto, dagger or a device or case which enables a knife with a locking blade to be drawn at a locked position, any ballistic knife, or any knife with a detachable blade capable of being propelled by any mechanism, dirk knife, any knife having a double-edged blade, or a switch knife, or any knife having an automatic spring release device by which the blade is released from the handle, having a blade of over one and one-half inches, or a slung shot, blowgun, blackjack, metallic knuckles or knuckles of any substance which could be put to the same use with the same or similar effect as metallic knuckles, nunchaku, zoobow, also known as klackers or kung fu sticks, or any similar weapon consisting of two sticks of wood, plastic or metal connected at one end by a length of rope, chain, wire or leather, a shuriken or any similar pointed starlike object intended to injure a person when thrown, or any armband, made with leather which has metallic spikes, points or studs or any similar device made from any other substance or a cestus or similar material weighted with metal or other substance and worn on the hand, or a manrikigusari or similar length of chain having weighted ends; or whoever, when arrested upon a warrant for an alleged crime, or when arrested while committing a breach or disturbance of the public peace, is armed with or has on his person, or has on his person or under his control in a vehicle, a billy or other dangerous weapon other than those herein mentioned and those mentioned in paragraph (a), shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than two and one-half years nor more than five years in the state prison, or for not less than six months nor more than two and one-half years in a jail or house of correction, except that, if the court finds that the defendant has not been previously convicted of a felony, he may be punished by a fine of not more than fifty dollars or by imprisonment for not more than two and one-half years in a jail or house of correction.
...
<http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleI/Chapter269/Section10>
 
Fair enough Sarge. Sorry to snap. 6 beers deep and a bad day.

Like I said, I think there are enough quality spring assist knives out there that are more than adequate. Just stick with those. If the idea is to be able to open one handed. It does the trick.

This one bothers me.

It's analogous to saying, "why do you need more than 6 (or ten) shots? That's enough to have, nobody needs 15 shots!"

[rolleyes]

if somethign is legal, it's legal, even if it's "unpopular" in some circles. though I do understand the intent of the comment.

Not sure how relevant, but I came into posession of an army-issued parachutist's knife, new in package. It came with a printed warning to GI Joe to NOT carry it off-base. It was a flimsy piece of crap - a broken beer bottle would have been better in a dust-up - but it was still a swithcblade. Military service was NOT a "free pass".

As a practical matter, a regular lock blade with a stud, or a spring-assist will give you the same utility as an automatic knife, with less hassle.

My (then 11 year old) son opened his spring assist knife a a table of adults when someone said, "Anybody got a knife?" one of the adults said, "You can't have that! That's illegal!"

there was a cop sitting there who said, "No, that's fine. It's spring assist...like this," and he opened his SA knife!

[laugh]
 
Please. I'm not arguing that the law is smart or right. Just what he needs to do to stay legal. I think the law is completely retarded as a matter of fact.
 
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