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Cant shoot my carry pistol well
- Thread starter Joseph Bonavita
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People give up on guns too quick.
How are your groups? This tells you your skill in regards to repetitive-technique with that gun. If your groups are small, but nowhere near your Point of Aim, you're doing fine. If you can adjust windage/elevation; do it until you walk that small group into your POA. (the Shield should be Front-Sight windage adjustable) Guns with combat sights can be tricky. I used to own a Colt Lawman III with a 3" barrel. To hit nice groups in the x-ring, I had to aim at the 2 o'clock area of the outermost ring...
Don't be a quitter.
~Matt
slap shot
NES Member
After I attended a group training for trainers at Harvard put on by Cloverleaf I completely get this. The tension provided by using both hands is critical in shooting better and making accurate fast follow up shots. People take different paths to get to the same place but this is definitely the one that helped me the most. Along with a nice high grip.
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That would be a miracle. I've never seen a flincher shoot tight groups consistently. They always look "peppered"...
Think of the amount of muscle-memory required to flinch the same, exact amount on each and every shot so as to group tightly. Sounds more like a Master Shooter who trained himself to shoot well while intentionally flinching.
![[smile]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/001.gif "Smile [smile]")
AHM
NES Member
If he learns to systematically compensate for the systematic error,
the shade of his adversary will really feel like a fool when they learn the truth.
OP
It may be that the pistol is not suited to your hand and may need grip modification. My EDC is colt officers in 45 ACP. When I first got it (the year they first came out) I had problems being accurate with it that I did not have with full size 1911 or commander. I was really frustrated as rifle shotguns revolver and other pistols I was shooting well
I finally figured out it was grip. When I drew from holster I was adjusting grip and not getting same grip twice
I added mag well which slightly extended grip and went to extended magazine (standard 1911 mag with butt pad).
Magically my grip on draw became rock solid and consistent shooting followed.
May have nothing to do with your problem. But if you are shooting other pistols well it probably isn't you. Look for something with pistol.
It may be that the pistol is not suited to your hand and may need grip modification. My EDC is colt officers in 45 ACP. When I first got it (the year they first came out) I had problems being accurate with it that I did not have with full size 1911 or commander. I was really frustrated as rifle shotguns revolver and other pistols I was shooting well
I finally figured out it was grip. When I drew from holster I was adjusting grip and not getting same grip twice
I added mag well which slightly extended grip and went to extended magazine (standard 1911 mag with butt pad).
Magically my grip on draw became rock solid and consistent shooting followed.
May have nothing to do with your problem. But if you are shooting other pistols well it probably isn't you. Look for something with pistol.
D
Deleted member 12999
You got some great advice from some smart shooters here. Good luck
AHM
NES Member
Another dry firing exercise is to balance a coin on the barrel (or front sight!)
and practice pulling the trigger without it falling off.
Not that I've even tried that one...
An isometric exercise a ham buddy of mine showed me
is to make an OK sign with your strong hand thumb and index finger,
and practice compressing the tip of the index finger against the thumb
without the three other fingers moving sympathetically.
You can practice that at work -
people will just think you're making one or another offensive handsign.
Last edited:
AHM
NES Member
D
Deleted member 12999
I'm going to go against the grain here, and tell you that dry firing is only going to get you so far if you have a flinch. Your brain knows the gun isn't going off. You aren't teaching yourself anything. There are ways to short circuit that and teach yourself proper habits and post ignition timing (credit to supermoto for opening up my eyes about post/pre ignition push).
If you are applying all the fundamentals of pistol marksmanship flawlessly, shooting good carry ammo and have removed that rediculous trigger and installed a good duty trigger then this:
- It’s a firearm with a 3 inch barrel for the purpose of a deadly force encounter at very close range.
- Train, train, train and train with it. It’s not the funnest to shoot but I do with my carry shield 9mm with a $99 trigger job and plenty of holster to dry fire drills. Have fun!
- It’s a firearm with a 3 inch barrel for the purpose of a deadly force encounter at very close range.
- Train, train, train and train with it. It’s not the funnest to shoot but I do with my carry shield 9mm with a $99 trigger job and plenty of holster to dry fire drills. Have fun!
cockpitbob
NES Member
I found this to be true for me. The only way I could confirm my flinch was to have a couple snap caps randomly mixed in the mag. The first time the gun went "click" and jerked down towards 7:00 I was shocked, in disbelief, in denial, embarrassed, annoyed, etc., etc. For the next few hundred rounds every 7 round mag had 2 snap caps mixed in. It took a while, but I chased away that little pussy in my subconscious. I wish I could kill him, but if I don't shoot for 6 months he comes back for a little while. So, practice, practice, practice.
I have a Sig P250 compact as my cc that I’ve been only shooting for about 2 months myself. In 230 grain .45 acp!
It’s a beast for sure with the shorter barrel but I am an overachiever trying to hit a 8” plate at 25 then down to 15 yards. Even then it is not easy to hit it if at all on a 9 round mag.
I’ve learned to control all the fundamentals to a degree but with 9mm it was easy enough to hit a aluminum can at 20 yards.
It’s a beast for sure with the shorter barrel but I am an overachiever trying to hit a 8” plate at 25 then down to 15 yards. Even then it is not easy to hit it if at all on a 9 round mag.
I’ve learned to control all the fundamentals to a degree but with 9mm it was easy enough to hit a aluminum can at 20 yards.
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Very true. I do however, like the idea of dry-firing to improve the mechanics of trigger pull on individual guns (they all move a little different)
as well as the "smoothing" or polishing of the sear and trigger, which can reduce pull weight and thus reduce muzzle movement during firing.
I feel and know your pain first hand. I flinch, I know I flinch, and I continue to work on it.
I have an original version 9mm Shield (came w/crappy, to be kind, MA. trigger) with the following modifications, which I recommend:
For my arthritic hands, I thought the thin Shield would be an ideal platform, but soon realized it was to thin. So I put on a Hogue beaver tail grip: S&W M&P Shield 9mm & .40, Ruger LC9/EC9 - HANDALL Beavertail Grip Sleeves - HandAll Grip Sleeves - Handgun Grips - Hogue Products
This improved my grip a little.
Next, I added an APEX 100-132 flat faced kit. This kit is a combination of the Apex Duty/Carry Kit Apex Flat-Faced Action Enhancement Trigger. This Trigger Kit directly replaces the factory hinged trigger with a solid aluminum trigger body which reduces pre-travel and over-travel by approximately 20%. It features a smooth, flat face with a center mounted pivoting safety that maintains factory safety values.
While I shoot it better now, and I can hit center mass at 7 yards, but the POA/POI still frustrates me. I'm confident it will save my life if need be.
Agreed. It is not the sights. You're flinching. You need to correct this. If you shoot alone, get a camera and record yourself shooting. You will see it. My opinion is that there is multiple "parts" or "types" of flinching. Sometimes it's the strong side trigger finger "pushing" the trigger just a little, but enough to throw the POI off. Other times your grip and finger will be correct, but the brain knows a big loud sound is coming, so you might lean forward or backward anticipating the "bang".
For me, this is spot on. Put the Hogue Beaver grip on it and get a Sightmark 9mm Luger Laser Boresight. Amazon has them for under $30. It's an always on bore sight, but will show you your flinch as the laser dances all over the place. Humbling, to say the least.
Now for me, what or how did I ultimately resolve the issue with the Shield? Well, I also have a S&W 9 Compact. It is configured almost the same as my Shield. Same sights and trigger work. It is a little heavier, a little longer, and a little wider. But not so much larger. It's a double stack magazine that gives me more rounds.
Side by side with the Shield, same target distance, same ammo, same grip, same stance, etc. I shoot the 9C so much better that the 9C is my EDC now, and the Shield is now my dedicated running gun in a Comfortac Belly band holster while wearing gym clothes.
If you're around the Worcester area, and would like to try a side by side comparison, PM me and I'll be more than happy to have you as a guest at the club I'm a member of.
I am not an instructor, I'm just some shmuck on the Internet throwing out some of my experiences with the same subject as you. YMMV
Jay
I have an original version 9mm Shield (came w/crappy, to be kind, MA. trigger) with the following modifications, which I recommend:
For my arthritic hands, I thought the thin Shield would be an ideal platform, but soon realized it was to thin. So I put on a Hogue beaver tail grip: S&W M&P Shield 9mm & .40, Ruger LC9/EC9 - HANDALL Beavertail Grip Sleeves - HandAll Grip Sleeves - Handgun Grips - Hogue Products
This improved my grip a little.
Next, I added an APEX 100-132 flat faced kit. This kit is a combination of the Apex Duty/Carry Kit Apex Flat-Faced Action Enhancement Trigger. This Trigger Kit directly replaces the factory hinged trigger with a solid aluminum trigger body which reduces pre-travel and over-travel by approximately 20%. It features a smooth, flat face with a center mounted pivoting safety that maintains factory safety values.
While I shoot it better now, and I can hit center mass at 7 yards, but the POA/POI still frustrates me. I'm confident it will save my life if need be.
Agreed. It is not the sights. You're flinching. You need to correct this. If you shoot alone, get a camera and record yourself shooting. You will see it. My opinion is that there is multiple "parts" or "types" of flinching. Sometimes it's the strong side trigger finger "pushing" the trigger just a little, but enough to throw the POI off. Other times your grip and finger will be correct, but the brain knows a big loud sound is coming, so you might lean forward or backward anticipating the "bang".
For me, this is spot on. Put the Hogue Beaver grip on it and get a Sightmark 9mm Luger Laser Boresight. Amazon has them for under $30. It's an always on bore sight, but will show you your flinch as the laser dances all over the place. Humbling, to say the least.
Now for me, what or how did I ultimately resolve the issue with the Shield? Well, I also have a S&W 9 Compact. It is configured almost the same as my Shield. Same sights and trigger work. It is a little heavier, a little longer, and a little wider. But not so much larger. It's a double stack magazine that gives me more rounds.
Side by side with the Shield, same target distance, same ammo, same grip, same stance, etc. I shoot the 9C so much better that the 9C is my EDC now, and the Shield is now my dedicated running gun in a Comfortac Belly band holster while wearing gym clothes.
If you're around the Worcester area, and would like to try a side by side comparison, PM me and I'll be more than happy to have you as a guest at the club I'm a member of.
I am not an instructor, I'm just some shmuck on the Internet throwing out some of my experiences with the same subject as you. YMMV
Jay
Oh, and YES, go green. The advise you will be getting is well worth it, and not just for shooting advise. Damn these people here have taught me about cars, solar panels, real estate, plumping, animals, and how to make Mrs. A73elkyss a happy wife. Well............. not the last one, but still you know what I mean.
Jay
Jay
I’m in Worcester Jay and I’d love company. I am going Weds to my club for a few hours for sighting in rifles but I am also giving some time to shoot some 9mm from my Glock 17, Kahr CM9, and .45 acp in my Sig. This is at North Worcester Fox and Coon. Let me know......be there around 10-2.
I can't beleive how many responses I have received! Thank you to all. I felt like I HAD to "go green"!
So I went to the range yesterday after work. A buddy of mine joined me so it was hard to really focus and concentrate on my issues. What really seemed to help me the most was REALLY REALLY RESLLY concentrating on the front post. So much so at the same time it was hard putting it on the bullseye. I think with such a short sight radius its alot more important?
I also think with such focus and concentration my other flaws disappeared?
It just bothers me because I picked up a p226 legion and shot nearly bullet on bullet at 5 yards and 2" groupings at 10 yards. First time shooting it and just naturally grabbed it. I focused on the front sight mostly but kind of blended it in with the target also if that makes sense.
I'm probably asking to much of this little gun but It's the only pistol I own so I use it for sport.
So I went to the range yesterday after work. A buddy of mine joined me so it was hard to really focus and concentrate on my issues. What really seemed to help me the most was REALLY REALLY RESLLY concentrating on the front post. So much so at the same time it was hard putting it on the bullseye. I think with such a short sight radius its alot more important?
I also think with such focus and concentration my other flaws disappeared?
It just bothers me because I picked up a p226 legion and shot nearly bullet on bullet at 5 yards and 2" groupings at 10 yards. First time shooting it and just naturally grabbed it. I focused on the front sight mostly but kind of blended it in with the target also if that makes sense.
I'm probably asking to much of this little gun but It's the only pistol I own so I use it for sport.
fshalor
NES Member
Agreed. Randomly mixing in snapcaps at the range and getting my grip as high on the gun as possible were the two tops which I used to get past flinching. (I'd only ever shot .22Lr before I got my KP95d in 2001).
Since then, only one gun I've ever had time with just proved unworkable for me. It was a first generation LC9. I tried everything but simply could not get used to the trigger as it had no reliable break and no tactile reset.
(Heck it never reset in the same damn spot twice.)
I shot far better with a P3-AT.
Having tried one mag through the newer LC9s's , I had no issues. (Full mag on a pie plate comfortably at 15 yards.)
If you are not dryfiring 4x-10x your actual round count, ... Consider trying it for a week before your next range trip.
I'm now off to go find my bore laser and tame a revolver roll while enjoying a cup of coffee.
It is simple geometry. The shorter the sight radius, the larger the miss will be due to sight misalignment.
fshalor
NES Member
@op if your shield has the changable backstaps, go as small as you can where the web of your hand connects to the gun. Get your hand as high as possible. Check it, and then see if you can go higher to the point of almost being behind the slide.
That was the grip correction I needed going to 9mm from .22. with the MkII, I was able to use strength to absorb the recoil and stay on target. With 9mm, you might just as well use physics instead as Itll be more reliable.
We left eye Doms have an issue of driving with our thumbs as we have our stance shifted to the left side. And I believe that pulls our fliches left. Notice how you add tension in your right arm with your left as you line up. I was correcting and "driving" with my thumbs. This set up my thumbs and my arm muscles to fight each other to handle the oscillating muzzle. Getting that tension out was the third thing I faced.
If I had been doing dry fire drills earlier, I would have saved a few hundred dollars worth of ammo.
(And maybe go watch some of Jerry Miculec's videos.)
That was the grip correction I needed going to 9mm from .22. with the MkII, I was able to use strength to absorb the recoil and stay on target. With 9mm, you might just as well use physics instead as Itll be more reliable.
We left eye Doms have an issue of driving with our thumbs as we have our stance shifted to the left side. And I believe that pulls our fliches left. Notice how you add tension in your right arm with your left as you line up. I was correcting and "driving" with my thumbs. This set up my thumbs and my arm muscles to fight each other to handle the oscillating muzzle. Getting that tension out was the third thing I faced.
If I had been doing dry fire drills earlier, I would have saved a few hundred dollars worth of ammo.
(And maybe go watch some of Jerry Miculec's videos.)
Congrats, you have found what is called "the trick of the day" You found something for your brain to concentrate on other than the loud bang and recoil. It is the first step in your brain realizing that it doesn't need to pay attention or react to loud noises. The next step is for the brain not have to concentrate on something else to block it out. Then you can work on keeping your eyes open as the gun fires and track the front sight.
As you shoot, look for the cartridge case to eject. Once you start seeing that brass-colored blur, that will let you know that you aren't blinking.
Once you aren't blinking, you can try to see if you can visually track the front sight through the recoil, as you see it rise up and come back down.
