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Chief pulls license of Marine

I don't think you can blame the Chief for this one. I'd say Cotnoir was lucky he was acquitted- he shot a 12 guage shotgun out his window and hit two kids.... while he was drinking. Maybe some of those kids needed some disipline but come on... shooting at them? Even I have a problem with that.
 
Lugnut said:
I don't think you can blame the Chief for this one. I'd say Cotnoir was lucky he was acquitted- he shot a 12 guage shotgun out his window and hit two kids.... while he was drinking. Maybe some of those kids needed some disipline but come on... shooting at them? Even I have a problem with that.
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+1
 
Derek, I might get jumped on again here, but I'd say the chief did the right thing here too. Cotnoir was not under threat of his life from a bottle thrown thru his window. OK, it might have been a Molitov Cocktail, but it wasn't. Also, he had an unsecured weapon and ammo in his room, and he fired and injured two people.

I think he should count himself lucky that he was found not guilty in a place like Massachusetts. It is a shame he will have the record of having his license revoked, but it sounds like he is suffeing from some PTSD, and may have another incident like this again.

I did it again, opened my mouth.
 
Did you even read the details of the case? It could have easily turned in to 20 people storming in to his house if he didn't put a stop to the unruly mob.
 
Lets not forget what kind of Person we are talking about here.

Getting Marine of the year isn't exactly easy.

http://www.militarycity.com/promos/smoy05/moycitone05.php?loc=af

The Marine told the jury Wednesday he called the police the night of Aug. 13, 2005, to complain about the loud music being played by the nightclub patrons that had spilled outside.

After members of the crowd saw him standing at his bedroom window, they "started making violent gestures, like banging on their chests and sticking up their middle fingers," he said.

Cotnoir said moments later, the crowd began throwing rocks and bottles at his house.

After one bottle managed to break the shutter of his window, he made a second call to the police department.

A second object came through the window and deeply cut his hand, he said. He reacted by grabbing his shotgun from beneath his bed.

The Marine said he loaded the shotgun and pointed it out the window before yelling, "Leave me alone, leave my family alone and get away from my house."

He said the crowd didn't flee, but instead responded by picking up more objects to throw at him. So he fired a shot to the ground hoping to scare them off.
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Nothing like a mob of animals outside pelting your house and threating you and the police are coming.... Yea I guess you can say he was wrong. [rolleyes]

But you're right, he should have left the saftey of his family to the police who werent coming...
 
yeah I have to agree with Derek on this one. If a group of unruly kids had broken a window and was still acting aggressively I think he did what he had to do to keep himself safe.
 
Adam_MA said:
Amazing how the cops didn't show up until AFTER there was a shot fired!
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I can't believe people are defending taking his license away. What other choice did he have? Two calls to the police and an angry mob outside and what the hell was he supposed to do. He even warned them with the gun. [rolleyes]
 
I agree... Not much else you can do. Who's to say that in another 10 seconds, they wouldn't have kicked in his door and killed him and his family! And from the way things were escalating, it sounds like that might have happened!
 
"They still haven't found the person that attacked me yet. My attacker is still running loose out there, and who's to say he's not going to attack me again," Cotnoir said.

Point well made. If anyone throws a bottle into my house while threatening me, after I have called the cops 30 minutes ago, its in the middle of the night, and (most important) when I have children inside............

Now we all know his address.
 
Ok, per the first article, all it said was this.

During his two-day trial, Cotnoir claimed self-defense, saying he was forced to protect his family from a group of rowdy revelers that gathered underneath his bedroom window at 2:30 that summer morning.
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There was nothing about what you posted from another article.

Going on just that. I don't think people being loud is a justifiable reason to shoot out a window.

But in light of this other informaion, it changes my mind.
 
With all due repect I still think the chief was justified. I have nothing but repect and awe for the work he and other marines have done for our country but I still think he make an error in judgement that night in Lawrence. Now of course I can't predict what I'd do in a similar situation but at the time he fired into the crowd I don't think he or his family was justified in using lethal force. I've been trained (albiet limited to CCW training- I've never served) to never fire warning shots... when you fire you fire to stop the threat. IMHO I think he made a mistake.... a big one. Please relialize I'm trying to look at this objectively... what he did as a marine and for his community is honorable... but he make a big mistake that night.
 
derek said:
I can't believe people are defending taking his license away. What other choice did he have? Two calls to the police and an angry mob outside and what the hell was he supposed to do. He even warned them with the gun. [rolleyes]
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More fundamental than that is the flaw in the state system which allows extra judicial punishment. I don't give much chance for the appeal with the convoluted logic used by MA courts - there was a case in Wellesley a number of years ago where the court ruled that although it may not have been appropriate for a chief to revoke a LTC in response to the licensee's exercising of his right to remain silent, the judicial remedy is not restoration of the license.

Even AZ believes that "accusal=guilt". Their carry license las specifically states that convictions which were expunged, set aside or vacated, or for which the applicant was pardoned still "count" for the purpose of license disqualifications.
 
Lugnut said:
With all due repect I still think the chief was justified. I have nothing but repect and awe for the work he and other marines have done for our country but I still think he make an error in judgement that night in Lawrence. Now of course I can't predict what I'd do in a similar situation but at the time he fired into the crowd I don't think he or his family was justified in using lethal force. I've been trained (albiet limited to CCW training- I've never served) to never fire warning shots... when you fire you fire to stop the threat. IMHO I think he made a mistake.... a big one. Please relialize I'm trying to look at this objectively... what he did as a marine and for his community is honorable... but he make a big mistake that night.
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Lugnut,

I am not trying to argue here at all. If you called the police twice and over 30 minutes had passed by at 2:30am. A crowd of angry people were outside throwing bottles and rocks in to your home. You show them a gun and warn them. Then they moved up to the bottom of your bedroom window what you would do?

ETA: One of the bottles inflicted a serious injury to his hand. What if it hit him in the head or throat?
 
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Lugnut said:
I don't think you can blame the Chief for this one. I'd say Cotnoir was lucky he was acquitted- he shot a 12 guage shotgun out his window and hit two kids.... while he was drinking. Maybe some of those kids needed some disipline but come on... shooting at them? Even I have a problem with that.
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Are you nuts? Has the liberal kool-aid finally penetrated your skin?

A man is in his home at 2:30 am. There is a crowd outside his house throwing things through his window, damaging his property and injuring him. He fires a shot not into the chest of one of the attackers, but instead into the ground. He was found innocent of any wrong-doing, yet he should lose his Constitutional right to own a firearm?
 
They are lucky he didn't kill them. He protected his family and house. Where is the crime? It's not on his end. I bet if people were doing that at the White House it would be justified.
 
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Besides, he didn't fire into the crowd, he fired into the ground, and the only 2 people that were injured were a result of ricochet.

Give me a break, if the court finds you innocent, the chief should do NOTHING! This is an ABUSE of power from the chief.
Control!
 
That's like getting aquitted for wreckless driving because you were NOT wreckless driving, then having the DMV take your license away because they think it's for the best..... [rolleyes]

This guy is zero threat to society, and I wish to god he was my neighbor.
 
Moderator said:
They are lucky he didn't kill them. He protected his family and house. Where is the crime? It's not on his end. I bet if people were doing that at the White House there would be justified fatalities.
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I was thinking along the same lines. He shot into the pavement...He didn't even shoot at anyone. What would "better judgment" entail?...Shooting into the sky first to see if he got a reaction?

It's 2:30am and after several calls to the Police and noone shows up to help, you've gotta make a decision. Your house is being surrounded, yelled at, and having bottles and rocks thrown through your windows...You've got to wonder, WHAT'S NEXT? Why wait to see what's going to happen when you can control it yourself?

I'm curious about the drinking thing...Everyone seems to bring that issue into play here, but there's no mention of him being drunk, or having a high BAC. It just said he had been drinking. I had been drinking yesterday for a beer or two...I even cleaned a gun yesterday! Does that mean I should have my license pulled?

This is just MA trying to screw over one more person. He was found to be not guilty...A jury of his peers saw that he was justified in what he did. The Constitution worked for him, and now it's being taken from him.
 
derek said:
Lugnut,

I am not trying to argue here at all. If you called the police twice and over 30 minutes had passed by at 2:30am. A crowd of angry people were outside throwing bottles and rocks in to your home. You show them a gun and warn them. Then they moved up to the bottom of your bedroom window what you would do?
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I hope you don't see this as arguing.. instead very healthy discussion. What I would "want" to do and what I "should do" under CURRENT MA laws may be conflicting.

I realize that he must have been in a fearful situation.. I live right next to the town and there are parts that are just scary. I guess what I've been taught is to use my firearms as an absolute last resort when fear of death is imminent. I've been taught to avoid and retreat if possible. In this situation I'm not convinced this was the case. I would think he and his family could have moved to another room/window/wall... I don't know for certain exactly what options he had. Waht floor was he on? If it was ground level that's quite a bit different IMO than 2nd or 3rd. I thought I read an article weeks back that said he was on a upper level. If on the other hand these scum bags came to his apartment door and tried to break in that changes the dynamics completely.
 
I see why you think the way you do Lugnut on this example, I just don't agree with having to cower in the corner and hope nobody burns the house down.
 
Derek, Semper Fi and with all due respect to the Marine of the year, I can respect him for what he has done as a Marine, and still question the decision he made at the time.

It would have irritated me no end to have this going on in front of my house, and it HAS, and I waited 1 hour and 28 minutes for the Police to respond. If anyone had come through my door or window, they would have been a threat to my life, in my opinion. As it was, we avoided contact, I didn't shoot anyone, and didn't get arrested. It was actually the reason the local COP ISSUED my LTC, many years ago.
 
I'm very glad that he was acquitted by a jury!

You have to look at the EXTREMELY NARROW "self-defense" law in MA and if you do, you will see that the following elements are required:

- Under IMMEDIATE threat of serious bodily harm or death by someone with the means, intent and ability to inflict it NOW! [What happened was bad, but does not rise to legally meet this high barrier.]

- You have NO other reasonable means of escaping such threat. [Could he have escaped out the back door? That is the way that a judge/chief will look at it.]

- You are NOT allowed to "threaten" with a firearm, you are only allowed to USE IT to Stop the threat. Warning shots are NOT allowed (not even for police).

Per MGLs, they will look to see if you could have moved away from the windows to avoid being hit by flying glass. Indications are that this probably would have been an "effective means of escaping the threat".

MGL really doesn't allow you to shoot at someone outside your house as "self-defense".

Maybe, and only a maybe . . . if they were throwing Molotov cocktails at him, they MIGHT have seen shooting AT THEM (not at their feet) as self-defense.

Per MGL, he could only justifiably shoot them if they ENTERED his home and then he would have to shoot AT THEM, not at their feet, to be within his legal rights.

You have to remember that per MGL, the chief is G_d and can revoke for NO REASON whatsoever. He was doomed from the "get-go", even if he hadn't been drinking. Most chiefs do NOT believe in self-defense under any circumstances and will revoke for any such actions. Appealing in court is futile, as the judges can/will NOT force a chief to change his "discretion".

Keep in mind, no matter how ugly the situation . . . if you threaten with a gun, fire warning shots or shots at someone's feet . . . you are going down for the count in MA!

Also keep in mind that the police are under NO OBLIGATION to come if you call them, or to protect you from harm!

The laws here for self-defense really do suck. Just remember the castle law does NOT allow you to protect your property, only your life when DIRECTLY threatened by someone already WITHIN your home illegally (not from the outside).

I feel badly for this Marine. His only solution is to get the hell out of MA!
 
depicts said:
Derek, Semper Fi and with all due respect to the Marine of the year, I can respect him for what he has done as a Marine, and still question the decision he made at the time.

It would have irritated me no end to have this going on in front of my house, and it HAS, and I waited 1 hour and 28 minutes for the Police to respond. If anyone had come through my door or window, they would have been a threat to my life, in my opinion. As it was, we avoided contact, I didn't shoot anyone, and didn't get arrested. It was actually the reason the local COP ISSUED my LTC, many years ago.
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Depicts,

It's the whole bodily injury thing that leads me to believe it was justified. Not to mention a jury of 12 felt the same way..... They heard all of the facts and believe he didn't do anything wrong. Why should he lose his right to firearms now?
 
derek said:
I just don't agree with having to cower in the corner and hope nobody burns the house down.
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There are just so many facts and things that would sway this case one way or the other. Like I said, if the person was protecting his family from a first floor apartment that would chage my perspective of the threat considerably as opposed to a 3rd floor apartment. I wasn't there and didn't hear the entire story.. I'm sure there was a lot that was left out.

One other thing I've come ot understand in law, certainly in MA.... Acquitted does not equal Innocent whether we like it or not.
 
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