cz shadow 2 with an extended pin

[paul73]

Hi,

as it is a gun new to me - i am still learning.
read the thread below. an RO got shot and killed when shadow 2 was dropped.

CZ Shadows / TSOs not drop safe

5 hours ago, dapribek said: I’m from Western New York and for now the word is that the competitor was reloading during the stage, dropped his gun which went off and killed the RO. I just shot a match with the RO and his son a couple of weeks ago. Tragic. I heard a close but different version. CZ ...

forums.brianenos.com

the consensus in the thread seems to be to blame, potentially, a setup with a 11.5# reduced hammer spring and a combination of the extended firing pin with a light FP spring.
i have this same setup from cajun, looked at it before with a bit of concern as i also saw the end of firing pin extending out a bit when hammer is resting.

so, will try to run tests with a standard firing pin and reduced FP spring and 11.5# hammer spring - to see it will get it firing reliably.
it is mostly an FYI post, but, if anybody has something to say - please, or if it was already a well known info - sorry for the dupe.

 

[TrashcanDan]

Interesting read for sure.

Somewhere in there (page 5 I think) someone tried what you want to, on a lino covered concrete floor.
Didn't get the same results, or at least didn't get it to fire off. And I believe he said he dropped it on the hammer and the muzzle.

I'm wondering if the sear was cut too much and had push-off from the get go.

 

[paul73]

as of what i could do - as i have a laser cartridge in it - i tried to drop a hammer by pulling it off may be 5-7mm back - just long enough before it engages into a first half-way lock - and dropping it back.
so, with an extended pin i was getting a flash every time. now, with the standard pin it never lights up.
hmm. correction - if dropped more aggressively - it does light up. hmm.

so i will take it to the range and will try running some rounds through it to see if it will be firing reliably enough.

from a visual assessment - a standard pin seems to be about a half or 1/4 mm inside with the hammer down. an extended pin protrudes out maybe a 1/4mm or bit less.
an other solution would be to try shortening an extended pin by 1/2mm - or just enough to remove that protrusion out.
i guess i can try that too, in case if standard pin will not be providing ignition of a primer reliably .

i really like the feel with 11.5# spring, do not want to alter it, unless absolutely necessary. but of course i do not want my gun to fire when dropped or smacked nether.

 

[TrashcanDan]

Thats odd because you'd think it would slam fire more often, and someone in that thread speculated the use of fed primers.

There has to be more to it. My Shadow's (Target 2) unmolested so I've never thought to check it. My 97B has an extended pin (entire Cajun kit) and I've never had anything close to what happened with those 2. I kept the original f.pin spring in it, not sure if that has anything to do with it. Cajun pin's a little longer but lighter too.

Is it relegated just to the Shadow 2's and TSO's?

I'm going to take a look over at the CZ site but I'm really interested in what you come up with

 

[LuvDog]

Its fairly well known now... If you can get reliable ignition with the standard firing pin, then there's no real reason to go with the extended pin.

The only way to know for sure is to test your loads/ammo and see if it works

 

[LuvDog]

Thats odd because you'd think it would slam fire more often, and someone in that thread speculated the use of fed primers.

There has to be more to it. My Shadow's (Target 2) unmolested so I've never thought to check it. My 97B has an extended pin (entire Cajun kit) and I've never had anything close to what happened with those 2. I kept the original f.pin spring in it, not sure if that has anything to do with it. Cajun pin's a little longer but lighter too.

Is it relegated just to the Shadow 2's and TSO's?

I'm going to take a look over at the CZ site but I'm really interested in what you come up with

The discussions on the other forums is that it's possible with all the Shadow variants and TS Variants, since there is not firing pin block. Sure, that's true of the design by it's nature.

The problem really comes from the extended pins that are used when lighter springs are used. So if you guns is all stock, the likelihood is less.

I don't think that the CZ Custom Target 2s put in an extend pin as part of the standard package. But if yours were changed, then its the same issue

 

[paul73]

I'm going to take a look over at the CZ site but I'm really interested in what you come up with

so. just for the sake of the conversation - i just got back from MFS, ran about 70 rounds total. it worked flawlessly on all of them, with a 11.5# spring, reduced FP spring and a stock FP.
a test doing manual hammer drop prior to reaching half-cock notch fired 1 time out of 3. so i hope it should be relatively safe (er?) in this configuration.
will keep it like that.

 

[paul73]

Thats odd because you'd think it would slam fire more often, and someone in that thread speculated the use of fed primers.

also, a bit of an unrelated question - how often do you have to take slide apart to clean the ejector?
on a regular shadow 2 you got to press out a pin from above. so, i got an OR version, and, to a no surprise - that hole for a pin to be pushed out is now blocked by the red dot plate.

how many rounds does a shadow 2 usually goes through before a need to get that ejector assembly cleaned? or, perhaps, may be it is a miracle design and it never needs a cleaning?

 

[TrashcanDan]

To date?
Not yet. Run it till it don't run no more

 

[LuvDog]

I haven't cleaned mine... several thousand rounds through them.

The CZC plates have a hole in them so they don't need to be removed to remove that pin.

 

[paul73]

Just want to throw in a question here - just to make sure.
In regard of a pre-ban mags, any 10+ rounds ones that may fit cz Shadow 2 - are there any, at all? I do not really need any, it is not a carry or defense gun for me - but, still, just curious.

 

[chris_1001]

Just want to throw in a question here - just to make sure.
In regard of a pre-ban mags, any 10+ rounds ones that may fit cz Shadow 2 - are there any, at all? I do not really need any, it is not a carry or defense gun for me - but, still, just curious.

Yes, but super hard to find. It takes regular CZ75 Mags. So look for Pre Ban CZ75's.

 

[drgrant]

.

Just want to throw in a question here - just to make sure.
In regard of a pre-ban mags, any 10+ rounds ones that may fit cz Shadow 2 - are there any, at all? I do not really need any, it is not a carry or defense gun for me - but, still, just curious.

Any CZ 75 mag will work. The clones (old witness, tanfo, others) often work too but you may have to change the follower to get it to lock the slide open.

 

[DW357]

Yes, but super hard to find. It takes regular CZ75 Mags. So look for Pre Ban CZ75's.

This

.
Any CZ 75 mag will work. The clones (old witness, tanfo, others) often work too but you may have to change the follower to get it to lock the slide open.

and this. All of my preban 75 mags hold 15 rounds. I did have to install new followers on a couple of them.

 

[PATRON]

Remember 75b magazines not 75.

 

[nstassel]

Yes, but super hard to find. It takes regular CZ75 Mags. So look for Pre Ban CZ75's.

75b mags.

 

[chris_1001]

75b mags.

The pre B mags will work. But the B mags are not all the interchangeable with the pre B guns.

so post B mags will be 100%

 

[paul73]

To date?
Not yet. Run it till it don't run no more

so, after about of 2.5K rounds total that passed through the gun, which is not that great much, to think of it - yesterday and today i had a 3 total of light strikes on the red army steel ammo.
2 yesterday, and 1 today, probably out of 250 rounds total, or so. i installed now a cajun 13# trigger spring instead of 11.5# and quite hate it. it is amazing how much heavier it feels to pull, both SA and DA.
dunno what to do, either to keep the 13# hoping that it will somewhat get beaten up a bit, eventually, or just put back 11.5# and do a DA whenever dud happens.

 

[DW357]

so, after about of 2.5K rounds total that passed through the gun, which is not that great much, to think of it - yesterday and today i had a 3 total of light strikes on the red army steel ammo.
2 yesterday, and 1 today, probably out of 250 rounds total, or so. i installed now a cajun 13# trigger spring instead of 11.5# and quite hate it. it is amazing how much heavier it feels to pull, both SA and DA.
dunno what to do, either to keep the 13# hoping that it will somewhat get beaten up a bit, eventually, or just put back 11.5# and do a DA whenever dud happens.

extended firing pin?

 

[TrashcanDan]

Or try different ammo?

I've never tried the red army stuff, but would it have the equivalent of say a cci or wolf primer, which are harder than say a winchester?

As far as the spring........... when I did the cajun kit on my 97, it came with another trigger. I did not (shoulda woulda coulda) do like a side-by-side to see if the geometry was the same, or if the new trigger made it easier through leverage.

I wonder if that cross pin that holds the f.pin is worn, do you dry fire it a lot?

 

[paul73]

Or try different ammo?

I've never tried the red army stuff, but would it have the equivalent of say a cci or wolf primer, which are harder than say a winchester?

As far as the spring........... when I did the cajun kit on my 97, it came with another trigger. I did not (shoulda woulda coulda) do like a side-by-side to see if the geometry was the same, or if the new trigger made it easier through leverage.

I wonder if that cross pin that holds the f.pin is worn, do you dry fire it a lot?

shadow 2 has no cross pin - therefore it is not very safe to use with an extended pin - as andrew said above - but, i think i found a solution, will need to test it.
11.5# spring produces a 3# SA pull and 7.5-8# DA. 13# is also longer than 11.5# spring and was at 3.5-3.75# SA and hek who knows what DA - above 9 my gauge can meter.

so i chopped off 2 coils off 13# blue cajun spring, or 1.5 coils, probably - and it seemingly got me into 3.25# SA pull and 8.5-9# DA pull which is manageable. it actually feels a ton much better. hopefully it will be enough for most primers now.
the way i cut it - it stands about 1.5mm taller than a black 11.5# spring and feels a tad tigher. may be got a 12-12.5# of it now.

 

[LuvDog]

My Shadows all have an extended firing pin. Are they completely drop safe? No, but they never were from the original design since the shadows don't have a firing pin block.

Yes, there was a recent accident that had tragic results... but I still feel comfortable changing over to the extended pin.

It's barely noticeable the difference in length. I don't think a "normal" drop will give it that much extra power to ignite a primer that wouldn't have gone off with the standard pin. It makes a difference though when it's released with pressure... again - just my opinion.

 

[paul73]

My Shadows all have an extended firing pin. Are they completely drop safe? No, but they never were from the original design since the shadows don't have a firing pin block.

Yes, there was a recent accident that had tragic results... but I still feel comfortable changing over to the extended pin.

It's barely noticeable the difference in length. I don't think a "normal" drop will give it that much extra power to ignite a primer that wouldn't have gone off with the standard pin. It makes a difference though when it's released with pressure... again - just my opinion.

i guess if my hack will not fix the issue i will put back black 11.5# spring and an extended pin. it makes sense.
it is just odd as i went over quite a bit of brass and steel there and never had a single dud. it is first time, now, as it happened. but, i dry fire it a lot, also.

 

[DW357]

My Shadows all have an extended firing pin. Are they completely drop safe? No, but they never were from the original design since the shadows don't have a firing pin block.

Yes, there was a recent accident that had tragic results... but I still feel comfortable changing over to the extended pin.

It's barely noticeable the difference in length. I don't think a "normal" drop will give it that much extra power to ignite a primer that wouldn't have gone off with the standard pin. It makes a difference though when it's released with pressure... again - just my opinion.

This. I’m not worried about my SP-01 Shadow or Shadow 2 with extended firing pins. Many thousands of rounds with no issues.

 

[paul73]

This. I’m not worried about my SP-01 Shadow or Shadow 2 with extended firing pins. Many thousands of rounds with no issues.

ok, you win.
will take it apart again - even the slight increase of the pull # now is not what i used to, i do not like it.

 

[drgrant]

This pants shitting worrying about ND with a Shadow (anything) has to stop, especially considering that everyone braying about it doesn't even have the whole story about "that one guy in NY that shot someone" lacking context that incident is not very informative. Also, who is going to drop a $1200+ competition gun on concrete? That happens ALL the time..... not.

 

[paul73]

This pants shitting worrying about ND with a Shadow (anything) has to stop, especially considering that everyone braying about it doesn't even have the whole story about "that one guy in NY that shot someone" lacking context that incident is not very informative. Also, who is going to drop a $1200+ competition gun on concrete? That happens ALL the time..... not.

already stopped.
feels way better with the 11.5# spring, like it is supposed to be. i need to find time and take rest of it apart, to put in cajun disconnector and hammer, will see, may be in a month of so.
hammering out the pin out of the hammer was spooking me, i saw the video of it, and did not like it much.