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Dangerous Reduced Loads?

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Before I dive back into my bottle of H-110 I thought I would bounce a couple things off of those more experienced reloaders. I was rereading a couple chapters in "The ABCs of Reloading" the other night when a paragraph in the reduced loads section made me stop and read it again, and again. It states "an underloaded cartridge can generate a pressure spike that is just as dangerous as an overloaded cartridge." The author goes on to talk about a 300 Win Mag rifle that was unbearable with a particular starting load, and only settled down as the charge increased. I started to wonder if this is what happened to me a few weeks ago with my very first true magnum loads for the .41 Rem Mag.
I subscribe to LoadData.com and found data put out by Montana Bullet Co for a 215gr cast SWC and 21 grains of H-110. Unlike any other powders on the page there was no starting load, just the maximum with a note below in bold letters to "never reduce by more than 3%." Even with my math skills I was able to determine my starting load was 20.4 grains. I loaded 6 rounds and continued with a half a dozen at 20.6, 20.8 and 21 gr with a similar cast Rushmore 215gr SWC. A few days later off to the range.
All my trials of new loads until then had been at 50yds, but they were slower special rounds so that day I opted for 25yds, thinking it might be easier to get holes into the paper. I hung an 18" square target on the backer, loaded a round, rested on the bean bag and pressed the trigger......... what happened next was the second worst experience I have ever had with a firearm, I did have a shotgun blow up on the trap range on morning. There was flash, smoke, a lotta noise and even more recoil--- well beyond anything that could be considered normal. I inspected the case and primer. Nothing seemed out of place. I decided to try again. Same thing. This case too looked OK, but neither round had hit paper, or even the cardboard backer. getting stubborn I fired the last 4 starting loads and never once touched the target. Pissed, I packed up for another day.
So here I am. I have looked at loads for various other 210 and 220 gr bullets and starting loads run in the 19 - 21 gr range. I have considered my Federal GM primers vs their WLPs or my unfired starline brass vs their Winchester. LOA? Too much space in the case? Any?
Thanx
 
Before I dive back into my bottle of H-110 I thought I would bounce a couple things off of those more experienced reloaders. I was rereading a couple chapters in "The ABCs of Reloading" the other night when a paragraph in the reduced loads section made me stop and read it again, and again. It states "an underloaded cartridge can generate a pressure spike that is just as dangerous as an overloaded cartridge." The author goes on to talk about a 300 Win Mag rifle that was unbearable with a particular starting load, and only settled down as the charge increased. I started to wonder if this is what happened to me a few weeks ago with my very first true magnum loads for the .41 Rem Mag.
I subscribe to LoadData.com and found data put out by Montana Bullet Co for a 215gr cast SWC and 21 grains of H-110. Unlike any other powders on the page there was no starting load, just the maximum with a note below in bold letters to "never reduce by more than 3%." Even with my math skills I was able to determine my starting load was 20.4 grains. I loaded 6 rounds and continued with a half a dozen at 20.6, 20.8 and 21 gr with a similar cast Rushmore 215gr SWC. A few days later off to the range.
All my trials of new loads until then had been at 50yds, but they were slower special rounds so that day I opted for 25yds, thinking it might be easier to get holes into the paper. I hung an 18" square target on the backer, loaded a round, rested on the bean bag and pressed the trigger......... what happened next was the second worst experience I have ever had with a firearm, I did have a shotgun blow up on the trap range on morning. There was flash, smoke, a lotta noise and even more recoil--- well beyond anything that could be considered normal. I inspected the case and primer. Nothing seemed out of place. I decided to try again. Same thing. This case too looked OK, but neither round had hit paper, or even the cardboard backer. getting stubborn I fired the last 4 starting loads and never once touched the target. Pissed, I packed up for another day.
So here I am. I have looked at loads for various other 210 and 220 gr bullets and starting loads run in the 19 - 21 gr range. I have considered my Federal GM primers vs their WLPs or my unfired starline brass vs their Winchester. LOA? Too much space in the case? Any?
Thanx
My first thought would be too much airspace. You could use something like poly foam or maybe the old timer recipe of grits. Basically, use an inert material in a duplex load to take up airspace in the cartridge. I do this a lot for reduced loads in .30-06 with good results.

When you have more airpace in a cartridge, you are igniting too much powder at once. Smokeless powder is a propellant not an explosive, and the powder burns as the bullet is going down the barrel. It’s possible you are causing all of the powder to ignite too soon, hence the rapport you saw and felt.

That being said, 3% downloaded doesn’t really seem like a huge deal. H-110 is quite powerful stuff though.
 
Start over again, this time using either 2400 or A9 powders.

Win296/H110 (they are the same powder) are renown for being temperamental in number of respects. At one time, they were my go to for .357 Magnum, 41 Rem. Magnum, 44 Magnum, and (later) 327 Fed. Mag. I have since shifted to 2400 (a long time classic) and A9 (new to me a few years ago). Both are reasonably tolerant of mid-range loads (though I may go to something else for "range" loads); both emit far less muzzle blast and flame; and both can give me the same muzzle velocities.
 
Start over again, this time using either 2400 or A9 powders.

Win296/H110 (they are the same powder) are renown for being temperamental in number of respects. At one time, they were my go to for .357 Magnum, 41 Rem. Magnum, 44 Magnum, and (later) 327 Fed. Mag. I have since shifted to 2400 (a long time classic) and A9 (new to me a few years ago). Both are reasonably tolerant of mid-range loads (though I may go to something else for "range" loads); both emit far less muzzle blast and flame; and both can give me the same muzzle velocities.
Also, iirc, H110 requires magnum primers while 2400 doesnt
 
Before I dive back into my bottle of H-110 I thought I would bounce a couple things off of those more experienced reloaders. I was rereading a couple chapters in "The ABCs of Reloading" the other night when a paragraph in the reduced loads section made me stop and read it again, and again. It states "an underloaded cartridge can generate a pressure spike that is just as dangerous as an overloaded cartridge." The author goes on to talk about a 300 Win Mag rifle that was unbearable with a particular starting load, and only settled down as the charge increased. I started to wonder if this is what happened to me a few weeks ago with my very first true magnum loads for the .41 Rem Mag.
I subscribe to LoadData.com and found data put out by Montana Bullet Co for a 215gr cast SWC and 21 grains of H-110. Unlike any other powders on the page there was no starting load, just the maximum with a note below in bold letters to "never reduce by more than 3%." Even with my math skills I was able to determine my starting load was 20.4 grains. I loaded 6 rounds and continued with a half a dozen at 20.6, 20.8 and 21 gr with a similar cast Rushmore 215gr SWC. A few days later off to the range.
All my trials of new loads until then had been at 50yds, but they were slower special rounds so that day I opted for 25yds, thinking it might be easier to get holes into the paper. I hung an 18" square target on the backer, loaded a round, rested on the bean bag and pressed the trigger......... what happened next was the second worst experience I have ever had with a firearm, I did have a shotgun blow up on the trap range on morning. There was flash, smoke, a lotta noise and even more recoil--- well beyond anything that could be considered normal. I inspected the case and primer. Nothing seemed out of place. I decided to try again. Same thing. This case too looked OK, but neither round had hit paper, or even the cardboard backer. getting stubborn I fired the last 4 starting loads and never once touched the target. Pissed, I packed up for another day.
So here I am. I have looked at loads for various other 210 and 220 gr bullets and starting loads run in the 19 - 21 gr range. I have considered my Federal GM primers vs their WLPs or my unfired starline brass vs their Winchester. LOA? Too much space in the case? Any?
Thanx
Your load data seems within range assuming the OAL isn’t super short. Are the bullets sized correctly? Measure the diameter?

If you’ve never used H110 before it’s flashy and lots of blast/recoil. Not a powder to download.

I’ve burned boatloads of it in 44 mag without any problems.
 
Start over again, this time using either 2400 or A9 powders.

Win296/H110 (they are the same powder) are renown for being temperamental in number of respects. At one time, they were my go to for .357 Magnum, 41 Rem. Magnum, 44 Magnum, and (later) 327 Fed. Mag. I have since shifted to 2400 (a long time classic) and A9 (new to me a few years ago). Both are reasonably tolerant of mid-range loads (though I may go to something else for "range" loads); both emit far less muzzle blast and flame; and both can give me the same muzzle velocities.
So 110 and 296 are the same? Great:rolleyes: I just bought a pound of that a week ago. At least it was short money, but now I've got to figure out what to do with it other than long term storage, I agree with you on the #9. The following week I took trial loads of 9 and enforcer to the range and both showed promise. I have 2400 loaded and ready for my next trip. We'll see, but I wasn't impressed with it in 41 special with a 210gr Berry's bullet.
 
2400 is probably my favorite powder. All I use in 357 magnum. Should be great in 41 mag
 
i use to use tuffs of cotton dacron fiber to fill the cases. it also helps keep the powder near the primer for a more uniform ignition. it would pretty much disintegrate when the powder lit.
How about using those cotton balls women use for removing make-up? What do I do? just shred them and loosely pack them in after I charge the case and let the bullet compress it a little as I seat it?
 
The check list for H110/W296:

1. Magnum primer.
2. Nearly full case.
3. Heavy crimp.

As for missing the paper with the starting load, check the bullet diameters. A chronograph can be useful. If ignition is squirrely, you should see that in the velocity data.
 
The check list for H110/W296:

1. Magnum primer.
2. Nearly full case.
3. Heavy crimp.

As for missing the paper with the starting load, check the bullet diameters. A chronograph can be useful. If ignition is squirrely, you should see that in the velocity data.
Magnum primer- check -------- nearly full case ---- gonna work that out ---- Heavy crimp ---- I had read that somewhere and believe I am doing it "heavy" I am using the Lee factory crimp die FWIW. Will check those bullets in the AM. If there is an issue I can switch over to the XTPs until I sort it all out. The chrono is still in my future. I don't see them often at my range for some reason
 
My first thought would be too much airspace. You could use something like poly foam or maybe the old timer recipe of grits. Basically, use an inert material in a duplex load to take up airspace in the cartridge. I do this a lot for reduced loads in .30-06 with good results.

When you have more airpace in a cartridge, you are igniting too much powder at once. Smokeless powder is a propellant not an explosive, and the powder burns as the bullet is going down the barrel. It’s possible you are causing all of the powder to ignite too soon, hence the rapport you saw and felt.

That being said, 3% downloaded doesn’t really seem like a huge deal. H-110 is quite powerful stuff though.
H110 is its own beast and does not like to be “reduced”
30 carbine has this H110 “warning” also.
 
Before I dive back into my bottle of H-110 I thought I would bounce a couple things off of those more experienced reloaders. I was rereading a couple chapters in "The ABCs of Reloading" the other night when a paragraph in the reduced loads section made me stop and read it again, and again. It states "an underloaded cartridge can generate a pressure spike that is just as dangerous as an overloaded cartridge." The author goes on to talk about a 300 Win Mag rifle that was unbearable with a particular starting load, and only settled down as the charge increased. I started to wonder if this is what happened to me a few weeks ago with my very first true magnum loads for the .41 Rem Mag.
I subscribe to LoadData.com and found data put out by Montana Bullet Co for a 215gr cast SWC and 21 grains of H-110. Unlike any other powders on the page there was no starting load, just the maximum with a note below in bold letters to "never reduce by more than 3%." Even with my math skills I was able to determine my starting load was 20.4 grains. I loaded 6 rounds and continued with a half a dozen at 20.6, 20.8 and 21 gr with a similar cast Rushmore 215gr SWC. A few days later off to the range.
All my trials of new loads until then had been at 50yds, but they were slower special rounds so that day I opted for 25yds, thinking it might be easier to get holes into the paper. I hung an 18" square target on the backer, loaded a round, rested on the bean bag and pressed the trigger......... what happened next was the second worst experience I have ever had with a firearm, I did have a shotgun blow up on the trap range on morning. There was flash, smoke, a lotta noise and even more recoil--- well beyond anything that could be considered normal. I inspected the case and primer. Nothing seemed out of place. I decided to try again. Same thing. This case too looked OK, but neither round had hit paper, or even the cardboard backer. getting stubborn I fired the last 4 starting loads and never once touched the target. Pissed, I packed up for another day.
So here I am. I have looked at loads for various other 210 and 220 gr bullets and starting loads run in the 19 - 21 gr range. I have considered my Federal GM primers vs their WLPs or my unfired starline brass vs their Winchester. LOA? Too much space in the case? Any?
Thanx
I’m not familiar with 41 magnum, but those charges to me without looking at data seem a little high for a semi wadcutter. I would double check bullet weight diameter, and seating depth. Is there any possibility you’re compressing this load now as far as reduced loads I think many times when talked about reduced loads being dangerous is when you have an excessive amount of space like using red dot or clase or some other fast pistol powder in a rifle case like 30 Ott six . Also, the reduction of slow up burning powders can have its own issues. The issue with below recommended starting loads is something called detonation, although from what I understand they have yet to be able to duplicate detonation pretty much in simple terms when you reduce a powder charge and having excess amount of space in the case, instead of the powder, burning it detonates, something tells me between what you feel is excess recoil and not putting around on paper. The charge is too high for those lead bullets, and/or they are the wrong size for your chamber or forcing cone.
 
Your load data seems within range assuming the OAL isn’t super short. Are the bullets sized correctly? Measure the diameter?

If you’ve never used H110 before it’s flashy and lots of blast/recoil. Not a powder to download.

I’ve burned boatloads of it in 44 mag without any problems.
Are you using H-110 for your Desert Eagle rounds? Any issues or concerns? Getting ready to load some for mine. 240 gn hollow point. Got a couple pounds i want to use up then switch to 2400.
 
Are you using H-110 for your Desert Eagle rounds? Any issues or concerns? Getting ready to load some for mine. 240 gn hollow point. Got a couple pounds i want to use up then switch to 2400.
Ya H110 for all my 44 mag loads. Well except some N110 loads.
It’s been working great in the desert eagle
 
although from what I understand they have yet to be able to duplicate detonation pretty much in simple terms when you reduce a powder charge and having excess amount of space in the case, instead of the powder, burning it detonates
It has never been duplicated. And I don’t believe it. I believe it’s far more likely that detonations have occurred using reduced loads where an accidental double charge was overlooked which resulted in a detonation, and then the blame was placed on the reduced load instead of the double charge. A double charge of a reduced load may be harder to spot, as it may not spill out of the case. Some also say a squib could be the culprit.
 
Roll crimp should do better
This is hard to interpret. Surely he’s using the roll crimp Lee FCD. Do you mean a standard roll crimp would do better? That’s possible, but IME with 44 magnum, the Lee FCD rolls the case mouth into the crimp groove of cast bullets pretty nicely. There’s nothing to flatten against like it does with jacketed bullets.
 
Before I dive back into my bottle of H-110 I thought I would bounce a couple things off of those more experienced reloaders. I was rereading a couple chapters in "The ABCs of Reloading" the other night when a paragraph in the reduced loads section made me stop and read it again, and again. It states "an underloaded cartridge can generate a pressure spike that is just as dangerous as an overloaded cartridge." The author goes on to talk about a 300 Win Mag rifle that was unbearable with a particular starting load, and only settled down as the charge increased. I started to wonder if this is what happened to me a few weeks ago with my very first true magnum loads for the .41 Rem Mag.
I subscribe to LoadData.com and found data put out by Montana Bullet Co for a 215gr cast SWC and 21 grains of H-110. Unlike any other powders on the page there was no starting load, just the maximum with a note below in bold letters to "never reduce by more than 3%." Even with my math skills I was able to determine my starting load was 20.4 grains. I loaded 6 rounds and continued with a half a dozen at 20.6, 20.8 and 21 gr with a similar cast Rushmore 215gr SWC. A few days later off to the range.
All my trials of new loads until then had been at 50yds, but they were slower special rounds so that day I opted for 25yds, thinking it might be easier to get holes into the paper. I hung an 18" square target on the backer, loaded a round, rested on the bean bag and pressed the trigger......... what happened next was the second worst experience I have ever had with a firearm, I did have a shotgun blow up on the trap range on morning. There was flash, smoke, a lotta noise and even more recoil--- well beyond anything that could be considered normal. I inspected the case and primer. Nothing seemed out of place. I decided to try again. Same thing. This case too looked OK, but neither round had hit paper, or even the cardboard backer. getting stubborn I fired the last 4 starting loads and never once touched the target. Pissed, I packed up for another day.
So here I am. I have looked at loads for various other 210 and 220 gr bullets and starting loads run in the 19 - 21 gr range. I have considered my Federal GM primers vs their WLPs or my unfired starline brass vs their Winchester. LOA? Too much space in the case? Any?
Thanx
No signs of over pressure on the spent cases?

I'm not trying to be a dick here.....but I've I've been using h110 for years in 357 mag and also the last year in 44 mag and h110 is no joke. It's a slow burning powder and will create fire balls even in my 5 inch barrel revolvers. Is is possible you just were not expecting the report, flash, and recoil that h110 produces? H110 is a beast of a magnum powder. When I'm using it on the indoor range if there is anyone else there I usually get the "what the f*** was that" look as they peak around the divider to see what I'm shooting.
 
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Is is possible you just were not expecting the report, flash, and recoil that h110 produces? H110 is a beast of a magnum powder. When I'm using it on the indoor range if there is anyone else there I usually get the "what the f*** was that" look as they peak around the divider to see what I'm shooting.
This is what I’m thinking.
 
This is what I’m thinking.
I agree as well. I checked my notebook this morning post range outing, and I load lead .357’s for my smith M27 about 16% (3gr) lower with H110 compared to the full power reloads I also make with hornaday XTPs. Both rounds produce a similar sound, flash and smoke as my reloads for a full power jacketed round, recoil is a bit different though!

Doesn't seem like a charge, primer, brass or powder choice problem. Sure you got the right diameter projectiles, and the forcing cone on your revolver isn't buggered? Otherwise, might make sense to take your revolver to a gunsmith for a once over. Could be a timing issue as well, cylinder locking up correctly?
 
Those charges don't seem excessive but all the data I've seen with that powder is for jacketed bullets. I'm not familiar with the 41 but maybe H110 isn't a good choice for cast bullets. Before I gave up on heavy cast bullet loads, I'd try 2400 or 4227.
 
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