I would like to see the democratic party separate its self from gun control and the ultimate removal of guns. It kills me that wanting a healthier, better educated society that takes care of its elderly has to be bundled with gun control. The trend of uncontrolled illegal immigration causing higher crime supports the need for law abiding citizens to have guns more than ever.
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Democrats and Guns
- Thread starter Bogview
- Start date
Yep.
It will probably never happen since the majority of what our current Dems want to accomplish requires all of us to be unarmed.
We're not talking about your father's Dems here (Zell Miller type), we're talking about progressive Dems, the type that want us all disarmed, they want you 100% completely beholden to the government in all your actions.
They know that they can never achieve that while there are still some people willing to fight for their freedom.
Illegal immigrants aren't necessarily the problem. The difference between "legal" and "illegal" aliens are ones that have a shiny piece of paper from the government that says "You're approved to move here." Physical threats can stem from all walks of life: Legal aliens, residents, natural born citizens.
There's also many Democrats and liberals that are staunchly pro-gun. For example, there's the Blue Dog Democratic caucus.
There's also many Democrats and liberals that are staunchly pro-gun. For example, there's the Blue Dog Democratic caucus.
It kills me that democrats have used the mantra of "wanting a healthier, better educated society" to accomplish the exact opposite while eroding rights and demanding more of our tax dollars to do it. I'm not saying the Republicans are any better, but to assume the Democratic party is the only one that can save society is gullible at best. Check out independent candidates and vote on issues, not party lines. It will be amazing what the political process can accomplish if the voters would get out of the mindset of "this party good... that party baaaaaad!" ![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
You may be right. Illegal immigrants aren't the problem, but not for the reasons you state. It's the assclowns that make excuses for illegals, the immigration officials that ignore the law, and the other incompetent fools at all levels of law enforcement and government that fail to enforce our borders that SUCK.
You presume that Republicans, Libertarians and Independents don't want this as well?
Why on earth would you assume that?
The issue is what form of government you believe is needed to accomplish that. Unfortunately, both major parties have, in practice decided to solve this problem with socialism which destroys these things...
I think this gets to the core of what is destroying our nation, you assume that because I learn from the historical example that socialism is a broken ideology and demand limited government as described by the Constitution to preserve my freedom as a means of getting a healthy, well educated society that I want people to die in the streets while poor and illiterate.
Nonsense...
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
All the money for the benefits we need goes to millions useless government employees at all levels wasting time until they get their retirement.
Socialism is a misunderstood term thrown around by fox news to rationalize necessities that are taken away.
Socialism is a misunderstood term thrown around by fox news to rationalize necessities that are taken away.
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But the actions and philosophy of the Democratic party since FDR are to blame for this reality... Republicans co-opted the democrat approach to having government solve all of our problems in the late 90's and made it worse, but only after 70 years of learning from the worst of the Democrat party...
Unfortunately, gun control isn't the only thing that holds the Democrats down. Like the Republicans, their solution for out of control government is to add more government. Their solution to out of control, unsustainible spending is to raise spending. I don't buy for one minute that they want a "better educated" society. Higher education encourages open debate about issues, but over the past few years, if you questioned a Democratic policy you were called stupid. I'm not even talking about healthcare, the stimulus or anything Obama has done, yet. Just look at the whole global warming issue. Anyone who questions it, asks for scientific evidence, or even offers an alternate scenario (i.e. not the sea level rising to the top of Mt Everest scenario) is labeled an idiot, or uneducated.
To imply that Gun Control is the only thing that the Dems get wrong just isn't true. This is not to say that the Republicans are much better, but at the current time, it's not the Republicans who are using backdoor deals and bribes to try to jam legislation down the throats of citizens who have said they don't want it.
To imply that Gun Control is the only thing that the Dems get wrong just isn't true. This is not to say that the Republicans are much better, but at the current time, it's not the Republicans who are using backdoor deals and bribes to try to jam legislation down the throats of citizens who have said they don't want it.
Rubbish to you too - WWII actually accomplished that...
The systemic collapse was as much caused by interventionist government policies up to that point as it was excessive speculation in the markets.
His policies and ideology created the entitlements that have bankrupted this nation... We simply cannot afford Social Security and Medicare even if they weren't broken-by-design ponzi schemes...
All of that ignores the problem that our Constitution does not grant the authority to our government to do those things...
You haven't answered my question of why you presume that I want people poor, stupid and dieing in the street? I don't. In fact, I see from history that freedom and limited government are the best way to prevent precisely this from occurring. The founders of this nation, having studied history better than most people these days, agreed with me.
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More Rubbish.
You are so far off. WWII was a decade after the depression. Next you're going to tell me that we put the depression on hold and waited for the Nazis and the Japanese so we could fix it. The war was just another big ticket item on the debt list.
If FDR didn't stop the depression with his new deal, there might not be a constitution.
Calling social security a ponzi scheme is giving amnesty to the vultures that picked it clean and spent the money on more unaffordable government.
This is all thread drift anyway. The opener was Dems should support gun owners.
Actually the war put people to work... In a way that none of the prior government programs could... First selling to the Europeans and then building our own war machine. Not sustainable, but more importantly, it wasn't the government handouts that pulled us out of the depression...
Fear mongering nonsense. You are also forgetting the hand the creation of the Fed earlier in the century had in the build-up to the depression.Bogview said:
No, it is a ponzi scheme. You have a pool of money that has no ability to grow at even the rate of inflation. How is it going to pay out if it has no means of accrual? Where does the money to pay people come from if not from new suckers?BogView said:
There is also the matter that in addition to being a ponzi scheme, it is a fraud, it was originally designed so that most people would die before collecting any significant benefit, but this certainly wasn't what was promised...
Then there is the matter that you accept that government picks such thigns clean and spends it on "more unaffordable government", but somehow it "will be different this time?" That is what government always does.
You started a thread saying everything would be just dandy if the dems would just stop pushing gun control. We are pointing out that this is not the case and your premise of the democrats being the only party interested in a "better educated, healthier society" is "rubbish".
Here, I'll end by getting back to your OP...
What you are missing is the real motive of the Democrats - it isn't to get a healthier, better educated society that takes care of its elderly. It's true objective is to keep the elite wealthy and everyone else powerless, but fat dumb and happy. This is why it supported slavery, segregation, gun control, etc...
Titan
Banned
Bogview,
The only thing the Democrats want to do 'for' the elderly is keep them from visiting doctors as often as they're used to.
Their prescription for covering 31 million uncovered (and after a court ruling, all the illegal immigrants), is on the backs of the elderly in this country.
There's no way a half trillion will be taken out of Medicare without hurting the elderly, so spare me the crap about what Dems want to do for them.
They're just another contituency to be exploited.
With the number of doctors, nurses and hospitals we have, the only way to cover 31 million new people is to kick the elderly out and shuffle them off to their 'final rest' a bit earlier than they'd expected.
You're welcome to try to convince me I'm wrong.
The only thing the Democrats want to do 'for' the elderly is keep them from visiting doctors as often as they're used to.
Their prescription for covering 31 million uncovered (and after a court ruling, all the illegal immigrants), is on the backs of the elderly in this country.
There's no way a half trillion will be taken out of Medicare without hurting the elderly, so spare me the crap about what Dems want to do for them.
They're just another contituency to be exploited.
With the number of doctors, nurses and hospitals we have, the only way to cover 31 million new people is to kick the elderly out and shuffle them off to their 'final rest' a bit earlier than they'd expected.
You're welcome to try to convince me I'm wrong.
At the current time is the operative word here. When the Republicans had the majority, just 2 years ago, these were the very tactics they used, in fact some would say taught the Democrats. That said the original point of this thread was gun control and with the amount of partisanship evident today it is extremely unlikely that any smart, middle of the road legislative approach towards any issue will emerge. Just like news people as well as politicos often forget the illegal word in "illegal immigration", they often forget the word "legal" in "legal gun ownership".
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Well it seems to me that you can't stop a criminal from owning a gun, but you can stop a law-obiding citizen from owning a gun. I guess that is all I need to know about the benefits of having any law that pertains to "legal gun ownership" vs. "illegal gun ownership".
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
![[popcorn]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/043.gif "Popcorn [popcorn]")
I missed that "unions are wonderful" trainwreck by going to sleep early. Glad I got in on this stupidity before it got locked. There are so many things wrong with Bogview's position thesis that I can't even think of where to start rebutting it.
I submit to you, thought, that the reason the Dems push gun control so much is that their other goals - all of which are pushing government's nose into things that are NONE of their business - require a disarmed public.
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Titan
Banned
I would have paid good money to get in on that union thing, too.
The Dems want to get rid of guns for the same reason every other government that's done it has...to prevent a grassroots uprising against doing 'what's best' for the folks!
The Dems want to get rid of guns for the same reason every other government that's done it has...to prevent a grassroots uprising against doing 'what's best' for the folks!
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Chris
NES Member
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Government by its nature wants to get bigger. It wants control, power, etc. The type of people who want to be a part of government are for the most part seeking that power and control.
In the health care bill, one of the things that it seems every legislator is backing is FORCING insurance companies to cover existing conditions.
Think about this. If I have a car wreck, can I then go purchase insurance to cover the wreck? If my house floods, can I then go purchase insurance to cover the flood damage? If I injure myself, can I then go buy disability insurance?
So, why if I have a known medical condition should I be able to then go buy insurance to cover that condition?
If this were the case, NOBODY would be buying insurance until they need something covered. That ISN'T insurance.
What it is, is nothing more than a roadmap to what they REALLY want. Government control over health care. In other words, the ability to tell YOU what kind of things YOU get to have paid for. Of course, please note that THEY first exempted themselves from that.
This is government. They are for YOU. They don't seek the same things for themselves.
FDR PROLONGED the depression, not reduced it. That is a fact you can find in any economic review of the period.
There is NOTHING that a government can do that private industry can not do better with the possible exception of operate the military - and even then, there needs to be strict rules to keep them under civil control. Go ahead - name me ONE thing government is doing that the private industry isn't doing cheaper and better.
In the health care bill, one of the things that it seems every legislator is backing is FORCING insurance companies to cover existing conditions.
Think about this. If I have a car wreck, can I then go purchase insurance to cover the wreck? If my house floods, can I then go purchase insurance to cover the flood damage? If I injure myself, can I then go buy disability insurance?
So, why if I have a known medical condition should I be able to then go buy insurance to cover that condition?
If this were the case, NOBODY would be buying insurance until they need something covered. That ISN'T insurance.
What it is, is nothing more than a roadmap to what they REALLY want. Government control over health care. In other words, the ability to tell YOU what kind of things YOU get to have paid for. Of course, please note that THEY first exempted themselves from that.
This is government. They are for YOU. They don't seek the same things for themselves.
FDR PROLONGED the depression, not reduced it. That is a fact you can find in any economic review of the period.
There is NOTHING that a government can do that private industry can not do better with the possible exception of operate the military - and even then, there needs to be strict rules to keep them under civil control. Go ahead - name me ONE thing government is doing that the private industry isn't doing cheaper and better.
Sorry, I have to disagree with you as do the laws of economics. We were spending into a bubble that we could not have paid for had not been for us being on the winning side of WWII. His social programs DID put folks to work.. it as a band-aid on a gunshot wound. By inflating government and social programs he drug out the depression and set us on the course for the problems we have today. The bottom line is money has to come from *somewhere*... FDR's plan was pulling it out of thin air. Between 1930 and 1940 the national debt went from 16.2 billion to 60.6 billion. That is hardly "pulling us out of disaster".
That issue aside as I truly believe the Democrat vs. Republican debate is a moot one. Different sides to the same coin. Until the dogma of blind party worship is dropped from the American psyche we will continue to curse the dirt as we dig ourselves in deeper and deeper..
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
Sucking money out of my paycheck... when I was working, that is. Oh, wait...the firearms industry did that, too. But I got something from the firearms industry - guns 'n ammo.
I still cannot understand the "blind party worship" (GREAT phrase!) syndrome. I've had to stop talking politics to my mother as I cannot believe how willfully ignorant she is when it comes to blindly checking off D's whenever she votes. Drives me nuts.
radioman
NES Member
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
I have two things to say about this
1. WRONG! so very,very wrong
and
2. in before the lock!
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