Denied on NICS Check-Am I allowed to purchase gun E-FA-10

icanthitit

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I recently got my first LTC-A in Mass. I immediately bought a pistol private sale using the E-FA-10 portal without issue.

A couple of weeks back I purchased a Pre-ban AR-15 from an FFL and the NICS check was "delayed" and after 3 days had passed without an answer the rifle was transferred to me (I took it to the range had some fun shooting it). Yesterday, a week after I took possession of the rifle, the dealer calls and say that my NICS check came back "Denied" and I would need to return the rifle ASAP, which I will do when he gets back from a vacation.

I called my local police firearms licensing officer for advice (he issued my LTC). This officer has been very helpful and supportive (he looked in it and also did the fingerprinting I need to submit as part of my appeal of the decision). He also pointed out several times that I am legally licensed to own that firearm so I needn't be worried about storing it or transporting it before returning it.

Here is the question: Am I allowed to purchase a different rifle through a private sale while my appeal is being processed? Is this a grey area or loophole?

Am I missing something? Is there anything else I need to consider?

Thanks.
 
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I recently got my first LTC-A in Mass. I immediately bought a pistol private sale using the E-FA-10 portal without issue.

A couple of weeks back I purchased a Pre-ban AR-15 from an FFL and the NICS check was "delayed" and after 3 days had passed without an answer the rifle was transferred to me (I took it to the range had some fun shooting it). Yesterday, a week after I took possession of the rifle, the dealer calls and say that my NICS check came back "Denied" and I would need to return the rifle ASAP, which I will do when he gets back from a vacation.

I called my local police firearms licensing officer for advice (he issued my LTC). This officer has been very helpful and supportive (he looked in it and also did the fingerprinting I need to submit as part of my appeal of the decision). He also pointed out several times that I am legally licensed to own that firearm so I needn't be worried about storing it or transporting it before returning it.

Here is the question: Am I allowed to purchase a different rifle through a private sale while my appeal is being processed? Is this a grey area or loophole?

Am I missing something? Is there anything else I need to consider?

Thanks.
Why were u denied? Did they tell you? I think u can get a special pin or something??..I’m sure somebody will chime in on here with more info. I would want to know the reason for my denial, if they/can tell you. Do u have a common name like John Smith?? Good luck! And welcome to freedom and please always vote accordingly. 😃👍🏻🇺🇸
 

Nick Leduc

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Not a lawyer, BUT this a "come and take" situation. Was the firearm transferred to you after 3 days (yes according to your 1st post).
Are you friends with the FFL, I'm talking BFFs, do you have them over for dinner at least twice a year.
If you can answer YES to question 1 and NO to question 2, tell the FFL that you will not be returning your property as you and them followed the laws for transferring it.
Don't do leg work for anyone, especially If you feel you are in the right. Let them come and take and prove that you have broken laws.
PS, this will probably burn bridges with the FFL.
 

appraiser

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well one thing we know with reasonable certainty, that FFL will never let a firearm out the door without a proceed from the Fed's.
 

drgrant

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Not a lawyer, BUT this a "come and take" situation. Was the firearm transferred to you after 3 days (yes according to your 1st post).
Are you friends with the FFL, I'm talking BFFs, do you have them over for dinner at least twice a year.
If you can answer YES to question 1 and NO to question 2, tell the FFL that you will not be returning your property as you and them followed the laws for transferring it.
Don't do leg work for anyone, especially If you feel you are in the right. Let them come and take and prove that you have broken laws.
PS, this will probably burn bridges with the FFL.

Of course we're assuming the OP is being puritan here and this is some kind of a false denial situation. There are a variety of people who have gotten issued LTCs in the
past despite actually being prohibited persons. I am going to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, on average I want to say there was like 50-60 THOUSAND false denials in the US every year on average, and now there are probably even more. These are false denials where an appeal later produced a proceed.

If the OP is sure they have a clean record they need to do an Efile for a Fed UPIN thing, stat. I would kind of be a c*** about it WRT the rifle if the OP was 100% sure they were not a
prohibited person. Of course if the ATF shows up looking for that gun that's going to be a fun convo, but who knows what its based on. Of course the corollary is ATF investigates it
and then discovers that hes actually not a PP and then the OP gets to go "Now wut, bro?" [rofl]
 

CATI

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You know if the denial is incorrect or correct.
If the dealer waited the correct amount of time before the transfer not sure why they are worried.
If the denial is for a correct reason you should worry
If the denial is a mistake you have no reason to worry
Not even sure if the FFL should have called you about the denial after the fact. Should have called the ATF
 

Nick Leduc

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You know if the denial is incorrect or correct.
If the dealer waited the correct amount of time before the transfer not sure why they are worried.
If the denial is for a correct reason you should worry
If the denial is a mistake you have no reason to worry
Not even sure if the FFL should have called you about the denial after the fact. Should have called the ATF
The FFL possibly messed up. The common mistake here is 3 days vs business days.
 

CrackPot

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There is a big problem here as presented. Not in any way saying the OP is inaccurate, but the story has a problem.

Here is what I understand
  1. purchase AR15
  2. NICS comes back delayed
  3. After 3 days with no response gun is released
  4. A week later the dealer calls and says denied and wants the gun back
I have two issues with this. #3, after 3 days. Its after 3 complete business days and the FFL knows this because when he gets the delay he is given the Brady Date at which point he can release the gun. He would check the box saying No Response Provided and release. First I would want to confirm it was 3 business days before the release, so that means Thursday for a weekend sale w/o holidays for example.

The second issue is #4. This is a HUGE red flag and totally incorrect behavior. Normally we check online to see if a delay turns into a proceed or deny. If we release after the brady date because of no response and it turns to deny, the ATF CALLS us and informs us it is a deny. If we say the gun has been released, they ask for all the information on the 4473 and also for a copy to be emailed or faxed to them. That is the totality of our responsibility. We cannot take it back and should not get involved. ATF enforcement by law has to come knock on your door and take the gun away. The fact that they have not done this tells me something is VERY wrong. I suspect the FFL has a problem of some sort and playing the DENIED card is how he is being clever to fix it.

Tell the FFL to give you the NTN for the transaction. Again, by law/regulation he must do this for a DENY since you have the right to appeal and you need this number. Also tell him to pound sand on returning the gun as you will deal directly with the ATF as you are supposed to. He did what he was required and is no longer part of this transaction.

Again, something is fishy
 

Nick Leduc

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There is a big problem here as presented. Not in any way saying the OP is inaccurate, but the story has a problem.

Here is what I understand
  1. purchase AR15
  2. NICS comes back delayed
  3. After 3 days with no response gun is released
  4. A week later the dealer calls and says denied and wants the gun back
I have two issues with this. #3, after 3 days. Its after 3 complete business days and the FFL knows this because when he gets the delay he is given the Brady Date at which point he can release the gun. He would check the box saying No Response Provided and release. First I would want to confirm it was 3 business days before the release, so that means Thursday for a weekend sale w/o holidays for example.

The second issue is #4. This is a HUGE red flag and totally incorrect behavior. Normally we check online to see if a delay turns into a proceed or deny. If we release after the brady date because of no response and it turns to deny, the ATF CALLS us and informs us it is a deny. If we say the gun has been released, they ask for all the information on the 4473 and also for a copy to be emailed or faxed to them. That is the totality of our responsibility. We cannot take it back and should not get involved. ATF enforcement by law has to come knock on your door and take the gun away. The fact that they have not done this tells me something is VERY wrong. I suspect the FFL has a problem of some sort and playing the DENIED card is how he is being clever to fix it.

Tell the FFL to give you the NTN for the transaction. Again, by law/regulation he must do this for a DENY since you have the right to appeal and you need this number. Also tell him to pound sand on returning the gun as you will deal directly with the ATF as you are supposed to. He did what he was required and is no longer part of this transaction.

Again, something is fishy
I remember someone on here last year saying cabelas mistakenly was selling "off list" pistols and they had to call back customers and ask to return guns.
You are correct with us not knowing all the details.
 

Ron Jablonski

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Something definitely sounds fishy about this, and unfortunately I really don't have any more solid advice for you other than what Crock-Pot stated. But for the love of God please don't post who the FFL is, if you don't have all the details then we don't either. I'd hate to see a local guy/shop get flamed over something that isn't their fault.
 

drgrant

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I remember someone on here last year saying cabelas mistakenly was selling "off list" pistols and they had to call back customers and ask to return guns.
You are correct with us not knowing all the details.
That's a different problem and even then the customer is under zero obligation to return the gun. This happened with Bass Pro as well as Deli ticket Emporium and a couple other shops
 

Nick Leduc

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I would not return it. However, I would store it away from all of my other firearm related items in case the "man" comes knocking.
This. Also, paranoid Nick would also fully disassemble it. If they are taking your property, might as well keep all the parts and hand over just a frame.
 

drgrant

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This raises a fun legal question though.... I mean if one is, in REALITY, not a PP, and NICS falses in this manner, is the gun buyer legally obligated to surrender the firearm? I don't
think so. Sure the ATF can "suggest" it be surrendered or returned to the FFL, etc, but I don't think anyone is legally obligated unless the word "warrant" appears. At first if I was the OP I would be like "sorry your system sucks, but I'm not actually a prohibited person. Maybe you should ask the FBI to unf*** their garbage, and get back to me. "
 

icanthitit

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To a clarify:
  1. The FFL called me and told me that I could EITHER return the gun to him or deal with the ATF, my choice. I have no problem returning the gun for a refund, but what a pain in the @$$. With the information I currently have, I have no issue with the behavior of the FFL.
  2. I am new to firearms ownership, so this is my first time running my info through NICS (unless they used NICS to check my out for the LTC, is this what they use?).
  3. I had several serious law enforcement interactions over 20 years ago. Had these arrests resulted in convictions, I'd be a PP. I have no convictions. I fully disclosed this to the licensing officer and took pains to make sure he understood the situation. He acknowledged my past, congratulated me on turning my life around and issued the LTC.
  4. I applied for an appeal of the "denial" and also for a VAF and am confident I am ok on this.
  5. My local police looked over this whole thing again this morning and assures me that I am a rightfully licensed firearms owner and that he has no intention of revoking. This officer did acknowledge that I needed to return the rifle (though he seemed to be confounded by all of this too).
Back to the main question: Can I return the gun and just buy another rifle using an E-FA-10 while I wait for my appeal to go through? I would like to obtain a rifle before the upcoming administration change. What is the risk to me if I do this (I'd be pissed if the ATF takes the property, but I can accept that risk).
Keep in mind, I already have a pistol that ATF and local PD are aware of.

BTW, thanks for all the input.
 
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I hate this f***ing state.
I wouldn't be bringing my property back to the dealer(I'm kind of a c*** like that), if they f***ed up we both can deal with the ATF individually(I imagine they'd be a bit harsher on them).

Of course that's from seeing some dealers doing shady shit(like repricing inventory[especially pre-ban] that's been sitting for months when some shooting happens in front of customers) so it's the first thing that popped into my mind reading your post. I wouldn't put it past a real prick to do this if someone came in a said they'd have paid more.
 

Nick Leduc

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To a clarify:
  1. The FFL called me and told me that I could EITHER return the gun to him or deal with the ATF, my choice. I have no problem returning the gun for a refund, but what a pain in the @$$. With the information I currently have, I have no issue with the behavior of the FFL.
  2. I am new to firearms ownership, so this is my first time running my info through NICS (unless they used NICS to check my out for the LTC, is this what they use?).
  3. I had several serious law enforcement interactions over 20 years ago. Had these arrests resulted in convictions, I'd be a PP. I have no convictions. I fully disclosed this to the licensing officer and took pains to make sure he understood the situation. He acknowledged my past, congratulated me on turning my life around and issued the LTC.
  4. I applied for an appeal of the "denial" and also for a VAF and am confident I am ok on this.
  5. My local police looked over this whole thing again this morning and assures me that I am a rightfully licensed firearms owner and that he has no intention of revoking. This officer did acknowledge that I needed to return the rifle (though he seemed to be confounded by all of this too).
Back to the main question: Can I return the gun and just buy another rifle using an E-FA-10 while I wait for my appeal to go through? I would like to obtain a rifle before the upcoming administration change. What is the risk to me if I do this (I'd be pissed if the ATF takes the property, but I can accept that risk).
Keep in mind, I already have a pistol that ATF and local PD are aware of.

BTW, thanks for all the input.
Yes, you are allowed to purchase firearms thru the EFA10 system, as you are still legally licensed. Your knowledge of a denial doesn't remove your rights to purchase more firearms.

I would honestly deal with the ATF, but thats my opinion.
Good luck
 

OnTheRoad

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To a clarify:
  1. The FFL called me and told me that I could EITHER return the gun to him or deal with the ATF, my choice. I have no problem returning the gun for a refund, but what a pain in the @$$. With the information I currently have, I have no issue with the behavior of the FFL.
  2. I am new to firearms ownership, so this is my first time running my info through NICS (unless they used NICS to check my out for the LTC, is this what they use?).
  3. I had several serious law enforcement interactions over 20 years ago. Had these arrests resulted in convictions, I'd be a PP. I have no convictions. I fully disclosed this to the licensing officer and took pains to make sure he understood the situation. He acknowledged my past, congratulated me on turning my life around and issued the LTC.
  4. I applied for an appeal of the "denial" and also for a VAF and am confident I am ok on this.
  5. My local police looked over this whole thing again this morning and assures me that I am a rightfully licensed firearms owner and that he has no intention of revoking. This officer did acknowledge that I needed to return the rifle (though he seemed to be confounded by all of this too).
Back to the main question: Can I return the gun and just buy another rifle using an E-FA-10 while I wait for my appeal to go through? I would like to obtain a rifle before the upcoming administration change. What is the risk to me if I do this (I'd be pissed if the ATF takes the property, but I can accept that risk).
Keep in mind, I already have a pistol that ATF and local PD are aware of.

BTW, thanks for all the input.
Keep it. If the local LEO says you're rightfully licensed, there is NO reason to return the gun.
 

appraiser

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Yes you can buy a rifle private party, because as far as you know you are legal

For the group: could this be one of those Catch-22 things where the state says he is good to go and the Feds say he isn't.... it has happened before.

For the OP: IF you go on a buying spree on Face to Face sales, all those guns will trace back to you, and if the SHTF and they show up and say Sorry, the Feds were right, please hand me all your guns, magazines, ammunition, etc etc etc, then whatever you bought is going out the door and getting it transferred via a FFL to a duly licensed friend is going to be complicated in most cases.

I was going to ask earlier if you have been squeaky clean all your life, but I resisted asking, but you yourself admitted you have a past, and IMHO something in that past has come back to bite you in the ass, and it could be something as simple a disposition incorrectly entered into the records, or the Feds know something the State does not and you are FUBAR'd

Want my best advice?

Go to every court where you were charged and get a copy of the disposition of every case, also get a copy of your CORI report.

Be prepared to sit down with a firearms lawyer, there are several good ones on this forum and a couple not on here (Langer) who you want to reach out to and feel out in case you have to call them in a pinch. Pay him a retainer for peace of mind.

Now if I were you, I would be doing a eFA-10 and having a licensed friend hold the gun for you for a while, if this goes sideways, and I have a sneaking suspicion it might, they are not going to be able to confiscate a pre ban high dollar firearm from you with limited avenues to get it transferred to someone else. Your friend can eFA-10 it back to you when this is cleared up, or sell it for you if it does not.

Print out a receipt of the eFA-10 and keep it for your records. If asked where the gun is just tell them you sold it. If any other questions are asked STFU and call your Lawyer. SAY NOTHING except " I'm sorry Officer, I have sold the gun to a licensed individual in a Face to Face transaction and it was recorded via a eFA-10. On the advice of counsel I will say no more to you without my Attorney being present" Repeat that as many times as you have to. BE RESPECTFUL, but assertive. Keep your mouth shut.
 

Rob Boudrie

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I remember someone on here last year saying cabelas mistakenly was selling "off list" pistols and they had to call back customers and ask to return guns.
You are correct with us not knowing all the details.

That's a different problem and even then the customer is under zero obligation to return the gun. This happened with Bass Pro as well as Deli ticket Emporium and a couple other shops
The Bass Pro case involved Glocks. Bass Pro sent out a letter that lied stating that the guns "must be returned". I would have enjoyed that one, asking them to provide the explicit statute or regulation that places such an obligation on the buyer as the regulations define it as an unfair and deceptive trade practice (on list, disliked by AG) and I am a victim. Or, perhaps "I will do so immediately when ordered by a court of competent jurisdiction", or even "have your attorney talk to mine".
 

42!

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and what bad advice (opinion) is it you disagree with?
Ya, @Knuckle Dragger can be pretty knowledgeable but it is kind of a troll to just throw a look at all the bad advice out there and not point out or offer any good advice. The least he could do is suggest contacting comm2a what with him being part of it.

IANAL but it seems like the OP has tried to cover himself by checking with the locals. Personally I wouldn't trust the locals. OP should talk to a lawyer.
 
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To a clarify:
  1. The FFL called me and told me that I could EITHER return the gun to him or deal with the ATF, my choice. I have no problem returning the gun for a refund, but what a pain in the @$$. With the information I currently have, I have no issue with the behavior of the FFL.
  2. I am new to firearms ownership, so this is my first time running my info through NICS (unless they used NICS to check my out for the LTC, is this what they use?).
  3. I had several serious law enforcement interactions over 20 years ago. Had these arrests resulted in convictions, I'd be a PP. I have no convictions. I fully disclosed this to the licensing officer and took pains to make sure he understood the situation. He acknowledged my past, congratulated me on turning my life around and issued the LTC.
  4. I applied for an appeal of the "denial" and also for a VAF and am confident I am ok on this.
  5. My local police looked over this whole thing again this morning and assures me that I am a rightfully licensed firearms owner and that he has no intention of revoking. This officer did acknowledge that I needed to return the rifle (though he seemed to be confounded by all of this too).
Back to the main question: Can I return the gun and just buy another rifle using an E-FA-10 while I wait for my appeal to go through? I would like to obtain a rifle before the upcoming administration change. What is the risk to me if I do this (I'd be pissed if the ATF takes the property, but I can accept that risk).
Keep in mind, I already have a pistol that ATF and local PD are aware of.

BTW, thanks for all the input.
Do both if you want. U can buy as much as u want through personal sales/transfers. Don’t wait on shit!!!! Waiting is why ppl can’t get LTC’s or Ammo. 👍🏻
 
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