Dillon XL 650 versus Hornady Lock N Load Auto Progressive comparison

[*chris*]

I am going to use this thread to chronicle the pros and cons of the Hornady Lock n Load Auto Progressive vs the Dillion XL 650. I have been using the Hornady for a while now for 9mm, 357 mag, 44 mag, 45 ACP and .223 and don't really have any major complaints. The reason for my purchase was I have read and heard how much better the Dillon is than the Hornady so I want to see for myself. To begin the comparison I purchased the 650 in .223 with the 9mm conversion kit and began installing it on my reloading bench. At the end of this evaluation period, I intent on selling one press and keeping the other. I really like the Hornady case feeder and bullet feeder and intent on repurposing them on the Dillon 650, both look like they will be pretty straightforward to do. The temporary setup:

The bench is glued and screwed doug fir 4x4s that is shimmed perfectly level, it doesn't budge an inch. It is a very stable platform that has made my LNL AP run better.

Everything was going along swimmingly until I tried to mount the spent primer catch cup, someone in the factory forgot to install it, less than 4 hours of ownership and I already need to call Dillon support before I made one round of ammo. Didn't have this problem with the initial setup of my LNL AP.

Hornady 1
Dillon 0

Initial thoughts:

The Dillon seems to be quite a bit more robust and precise. The case feeder does not work correctly yet, but the case retention seems tighter than the LNL AP. The shellplate spin is quite "snappy" due to the slope of the ramp that actuates it, I can see how people have issues with powder spilling. Overall the Dillon appears to be a more complex machine with a surprising amount of plastic parts that are generally metal on the LNL AP. The Dillion is also drenched in grease everywhere and is stinking up my basement. I really like the primer feed "wheel" system, as many have pointed out with large flake powder like Unique, the Hornady LNL primer slider can get clogged with powder and stick, I don't think there could be any issue with the Dillon. The primer insertion anvil on the Dillion is quite a bit more robust than the LNL AP. It appears that caliber changes with the Dillion will be quite a bit more expensive.

Hornady Caliber Change
Shell Plate ~$30
Quick Change Bushings ~$15
Dies ~$40
Total $85

Dillon Caliber Change
Caliber Conversion Kit $75
Toolhead $25
Dies $40
Total $140

Dillon does sell a Toolhead kit with a powder drop for $100 which to me seems like the much better deal in the long run. The Dillon Toolhead design is really slick, just two pins allow you to remove the reloading dies and powder measure and put them aside, everything stays in perfect alignment. Hopefully I will finish assembly tomorrow evening.

Chris

 

[turbo89]

Subscribing. I've looked both presses for a week or so, trying to make a determination on which way to go.

Edit: went with the L-N-L

 

[BostonBullit]

how the hell do you get to your breakers???

interested to see how this goes...hopefully it doesn't devolve into the usual Red v Blue jihad

 

[Fixxah]

how the hell do you get to your breakers???

interested to see how this goes...hopefully it doesn't devolve into the usual Red v Blue jihad

As long as nobody bashes red we will be fine.

-Proud to be dad every day, a licensed plumber most days, and wish I was a shoemaker on others.

 

[DW357]

I finally mounted my Hornady LNL to my bench last weekend but haven't had time to set up the dies etc. yet with all of the moving I've been doing into the new house. Nice setups you got there.

 

[Supermoto]

Everything was going along swimmingly until I tried to mount the spent primer catch cup, someone in the factory forgot to install it, less than 4 hours of ownership and I already need to call Dillon support before I made one round of ammo. Didn't have this problem with the initial setup of my LNL AP.

The LNL doesn't even come with a primer catch, just a hose. You have to rig up a cup

 

[*chris*]

how the hell do you get to your breakers???

interested to see how this goes...hopefully it doesn't devolve into the usual Red v Blue jihad

I only owned the LNL when I installed the bench, at that time CB access was fine. Now, not so much...

I am sure we can keep it clean, I will try to be as factual as possible.

Chris

 

[*chris*]

The LNL doesn't even come with a primer catch, just a hose. You have to rig up a cup

Agreed, the LNL spent primer disposal is a much better system, I have a mayo jar with a hole drilled in the top. For the Dillon, you need to spend $25 to get on par with the Hornady LNL. To the left of the loaders in the photo is a combo mill/lathe, I am going to make a Hornady-like primer disposal system probably this weekend.

Chris

 

[Supermoto]

Agreed, the LNL spent primer disposal is a much better system, I have a mayo jar with a hole drilled in the top. For the Dillon, you need to spend $25 to get on par with the Hornady LNL. To the left of the loaders in the photo is a combo mill/lathe, I am going to make a Hornady-like primer disposal system probably this weekend.

Chris

The brass tube on my LNL would fall out or the plastic would fall off. I used a 2 liter bottle to collect the primers. I like the little cup better

 

[*chris*]

The brass tube on my LNL would fall out or the plastic would fall off. I used a 2 liter bottle to collect the primers. I like the little cup better

Being that my 650 shipped without the primer cup holder I would not know, but I can see what you are saying. It looks like it would hold 150-200 primers easily. How many does it hold in your experience? I think the natural progression would be to dump the primers when you are loading fresh ones in the tube. I have read the primers jump out, is that the case or only after being over-full? The Hornady Single Stage press to the left has the same type of cup and it works fine when I am depriming .223.

Chris

 

[Supermoto]

600-700, I just looked after loading 300, 1/2 way up, but the top is wider

 

[*chris*]

600-700, I just looked after loading 300, 1/2 way up, but the top is wider

That is pretty darn good, I usually get bored after reloading 250 in one session.

What are your thoughts on buying just the separate toolhead ~$25 or the toolhead, stand, and powder drop for ~$100?

I reload 5 calibers regularly so it could get really expensive. Caliber change-overs take a lot more than just the toolhead, so I am not certain if moving the powder measure is such a big deal.

Chris

 

[Supermoto]

With 5 it will get expensive. I did the whole powder drop, stand and tool head for the 2 main calibers I load. 9 and 40. Moving the powder measure is not a big deal, but I did not want to have to readjust my powder measure. The time it takes me to do that, I could be done loading. For .223 I will just get a 2 toolheads and stands, but not the powder drop. Since I will just load up a bunch at once then be done with it

 

[EddieCoyle]

600-700, I just looked after loading 300, 1/2 way up, but the top is wider

On my L-N-L, I put a long tube into a 5-gallon bucket. I think it holds about 80,000.

 

[Fixxah]

On my L-N-L, I put a long tube into a 5-gallon bucket. I think it holds about 80,000.

Damn, my bucket is just 3-1/2 gallons. Maybe 50k?

-Proud to be dad every day, a licensed plumber most days, and wish I was a shoemaker on others.

 

[*chris*]

First a few thoughts after I finished assembly of the press and reloaded some 9mm.

1. I really like the machine, it is a bit quirky, but the priming system is amazing and the whole machine works with closer tolerances than the LNL AP. It just works when you pull the lever unlike the LNL AP that can be finicky with some cartridges.

2. Not sure why Dillon bothers selling the 650 in different calibers, I could see if it came complete with dies, but it doesn't and the manual missed a step when converting a factory setup rifle press for pistol. In my opinion, they should sell it caliber-free and allow the purchaser to decide what caliber they want to reload.

3. Why so much grease Dillon? Hornady gets away with making their reloader work with a minimal amount of exposed grease and your machine is drenched in it. Pick some self-lubricating materials, errant powder gets stuck immediately to the grease and makes a mess.

4. Case retention is really slick, but it is really hard to re-insert half made bullets into the machine. You can't disable the case feed or the priming system.

5. The priming system is really precise, but not being able to prevent it from cycling is a royal PITA, while I was tweaking and testing everything I had at least 12 orphan primers that had to be reloaded.

6. I really like the toolhead concept, but it is really expensive if you reload multiple calibers. The individual quick change bushings, on the LNL AP, make it much easier to leave the powder drop in place and just swap out the dies for a caliber change. If on a budget, the LNL makes it much cheaper to change calibers than Dillion enables.

7. Thankfully I already have a case feeder on my LNL AP because dropping cases one at a time into the case feeder tube is really tedious. I prefer placing them manually in the shellplate as you can do with the LNL AP. I pretty much think the casefeeder is a required investment.

8. Dillon Customer Service, average at best unless you like patronizing midwestern gentlemen. My brand new press was missing the spent primer catch bracket and I spent 18 minutes on hold, the part was ordered quickly, but when I added a quick-change kit (toolhead, stand, powder drop) I was charged retail and full shipping for the entire order. In my mind, exemplary customer service would have shipped my order for free since my press was non-functional due to their poor quality assurance team.

I reloaded 25 rounds of 9mm today with 124gn round nose bullets and 4.5 gn of Unique. This put the powder level within 3/16" of the top of the case. I certainly had a flake or two of Unique flying out of the top of the case, but certainly not a significant enough amount to change the load performance. I am not sure if I will buy the bearing upgrade or chop my detent spring.

Here are some photos and comments of the advantages of the two reloaders.


The priming aspect consists of the following massive anvil, it is twice as wide and 3 times as long as the one on the LNL AP. It also rests on a machined base which will not allow the frame divot that can happen to the LNL AP.

The priming system consists of a drop tube like every other reloader and a metal disk that has 16 holes drilled in it. It indexes with every pull of the lever to place a fresh primer under the deprimed case. Unlike the LNL AP which will only feed a primer if the system needs it, the Dillion drops a primer weather is it needed or not which causes new primers to be ejected from the system and they have to be reloaded which is tedious.

Another cool feature of the Dillon is it comes with this primer empty alarm on the top of the tube. It has a microswitch which is activated by the top of the primer feed bar. With the LNL AP, I simply marked black lines every 25 primers so I would know when it was getting close to empty.

Here is a photo of the much less robust LNL AP priming system, there is a roller-activated bar that slides back and forth to introduce primers into the system. The nice thing about it is it will only feed a primer when necessary.

The manual overall is average at best, it left me confused how to setup the primer alarm and the powder drop return bracket. The biggest problem I had was with the case feeder, every time the case would drop, it would fall over. I did read the manual cover to cover a few times and saw in the Rifle section, but not in the Pistol section, instructions for flipping the orientation of the case feeder activation block shown here. Since I bought a rifle reloader this needed to be flipped to feed 9mm cases.

Oh poor orphan cases, how do I get powder into you without removing all the primers and cases in the system???

Drat, 3 more primers I need to reload, in the thousands of rounds I have loaded on my LNL AP I have never had to deal with this. The buttery-smooth primer seating action almost makes up for it.

Since my press was shipped missing the primer catch bracket, I had to make my own LNL AP like spent primer catch. I took a 1/2" barbed fitting and a small angle of aluminum and put this together to grab the spent primers, it works awesome and cost me $3 for a length of 1/2" ID tubing from Lowes.

My sons spent primer college fund.

Case retention on the Dillon is significantly more precise which has several advantages insuring smooth operation, but makes it harder to tweak mid-cycle. The little brass buttons are caliber-specific and are removed to remove the case from that particular station. The shell plate is also signifcantly smaller than the LNL AP which I feel leads to more rigidity and the nice primer seating feel.

The Hornady uses a circular spring to retain the cases which is significantly sloppier, but allows easier access to the cases for tweaking.

I think that is all I need to talk about tonight, at this point I may need to paint my bench Dillon blue, I am pretty impressed. I have to spend the time to calculate the costs, with multiple calibers the Dillon is significantly more expensive.

Chris

 

[kayak1]

Chris,
To disable the primer advance (I do this when I am adjusting the powder etc) is to just unscrew the black plastic primer advance from the frame 5/32 allen screw, it takes 2 seconds to remove and 2 seconds to put back. You don't have to adjust it's location or tighten it down very much.

I like your primer collector that was a good mod. I purchased one off ebay, but next time I would go your route. You might look on ebay for the primer ski jump replacement that might give you some inspiration, I would love to see what you do with that one.

 

[Supermoto]

why would you put primer in the press but not powder? You have now made a bunch of squibs

I don't see how grabbing the unused primers off the chute and putting them on the flipper tray is tedious?

 

[kayak1]

why would you put primer in the press but not powder? You have now made a bunch of squibs

I don't see how grabbing the unused primers off the chute and putting them on the flipper tray is tedious?

I disable the primer advance and stop it from loading new cases when I am adjusting the powder. I use the same case weight it before (zero the scale) and then check the power drop. When it looks like it looks good, I then have it drop 10 of them into the case and them dump the 10 into a pan on the scale to see if it show's up as 10x what I expect it to be. If not it's back to step 1 with setting the powder drop.

If I didn't disable the primer advance I would go though 50 primers getting the powder to where I am happy with it.

 

[*chris*]

Kayak1, great idea removing it would be pretty easy. I wonder if it would make sense to replace the bolt with a wingnut or small knob.

Supermoto, I find that powder throws differently when case activated versus activating it via my finger and dumping the powder into a small cup. Therefore, I like to drop a couple measures of powder in cases and weigh them. This gives me a handful of resized and primed cases with no powder in them. I don't think it is a huge negative of the 650, just an annoyance.

I don't see how grabbing the unused primers off the chute and putting them on the flipper tray is tedious?

Because I don't have to do it with the LNL AP. I use a Vibraprime to fill my primer tubes and like to use primer count to figure out how many rounds I have loaded. Now I have to store a handful of primers until the next time I fill tubes. I am taking a pair of tweezers and putting them back in the tube one at a time.

Chris

 

[Supermoto]

I use a spent case with a used primer. You are making things more difficult than they need to be

 

[JimB]

why would you put primer in the press but not powder? You have now made a bunch of squibs

I don't see how grabbing the unused primers off the chute and putting them on the flipper tray is tedious?

ii let them build up a bit (not a lot) and toss the in the flip tray as well. takes no time.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

according to the 2005 National Electric Code, that panel cover should be kept clear 36"...

 

[Fixxah]

Looks like a split case on the LnL. QC issues?

-Proud to be dad every day, a licensed plumber most days, and wish I was a shoemaker on others.

 

[*chris*]

I use a spent case with a used primer. You are making things more difficult than they need to be

Yes and no, if the primer tube already has primers in it, regardless of the case you use, it will feed primers. If I setup my primer drop before inserting any primers you would be correct. But then you need to battle the case feeder dropping cases that you don't want. Naturally I need to fight the same problem with the LNL AP case feeder. My opinion is the LNL AP has a better functional primer feed system, obviously you feel differently. The seating of primers appears to be far superior than the LNL AP due to the much larger anvil. So I give Dillon the win on the priming system.

It is worth noting that as far as I can tell, you can only use a powder through expander, you can't use a separate expander die which I think is more accurate for pistol cartridges. There is less flexibility as to which die goes where with the 650. With rifle cartridges, it really doesn't matter as the sizing die expands the neck. Are the Dillon pistol dies only two die sets without a separate expander die?

Looks like a split case on the LnL. QC issues?

Which photo? I am literally mid-stroke reloading a bunch of 44 mag on my LNL AP. These cases are once fired, so I doubt one is already split.

Does anyone want any more photos or comparisons between the two presses?


Chris

 

[Supermoto]

It is worth noting that as far as I can tell, you can only use a powder through expander, you can't use a separate expander die which I think is more accurate for pistol cartridges. There is less flexibility as to which die goes where with the 650. With rifle cartridges, it really doesn't matter as the sizing die expands the neck. Are the Dillon pistol dies only two die sets without a separate expander die?
.

Actually you can use the powder measure in station 3 and an expander in 2. Makes the press super smooth

 

[*chris*]

Actually you can use the powder measure in station 3 and an expander in 2. Makes the press super smooth

View attachment 77935

Very cool, I didn't see that covered in the manual, this is my preferred mode of operation. Take that nit pick off the list!

The LNL AP is also a lot less smooth when using the powder through expander. You need to use it if you are using the bullet feeder and a Powder Cop with the LNL AP.

Chris

 

[JackO]

Actually you can use the powder measure in station 3 and an expander in 2. Makes the press super smooth

View attachment 77935

What is the cable in between stations 3 and 4 in your photo?

 

[OfficerObie59]

Learning about reloading is on my list of gun shit to start doing. While a lot of this stuff reads like Greek to us guys who don't reload, I am picking up on a good deal of it.

Keep in coming!

 

[Deleted member 12999]

Learning about reloading is on my list of gun shit to start doing. While a lot of this stuff reads like Greek to us guys who don't reload, I am picking up on a good deal of it.

Keep in coming!

Same here. I just picked up an entire 650 setup for the job, and will tackle reloading our training ammo. Just waiting to get in a class with EddieCoyle