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Discover credit cards, starts tracking purchase.

Broc said:
LOL ... OK. So I can buy ammo using cash at the local gun store.

You got me there.

99% of all the other stuff can't be found at most local gun stores.
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I don't usually use plastic to buy guns or ammo locally but for the other stuff you describe its obviously quite necessary.
 
What was concerning was a recent news report of someone busted for child porn based on a "tip from Verizon". The nature of the crime causes people to think "good", rather than "what does this mean for my rights to be secure in my effects, persons and papers?".

The concern is what level of montioring is the ISP doing on accounts?

- Help with warrant based searches - pretty much certain
- Maintain their own list of email addresses/destination IPs/etc to spot such activity?
- AI scanning of email for illegal content?
 
Broc said:
The people that always throw the "pay cash" tells me they are the ones that own maybe 3 guns purchased locally, they are completely stock (most likely Ruger or Smith and Wesson) and most likely buy 2 boxes of ammo every 3 months for their one range visit.

Those people never tried to buy quality scope rings, or an after market trigger or a quality bipod besides maybe the POS Harrys they sell at Walmart.

That is what I get from the "USE CASH" answers.

Edit to add: As far as TSUSA, it is great they offer pickup, I didn't know this. That could work for people in NE to drive over. But, outside NE or maybe certain parts of NY/NJ, it blows for everyone else, cash is not really an option.
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I literally can't remember the last time I paid cash for anything, lol.
 
Broc said:
Oh look, the two word guys are showing up ...

Yeah bro, let me call TSUSA and tell them I am mailing a check ...

Oh wait, they could track those as well.

Let me call them and tell them I will pick it up ... wait, do they allow that?

I will call Midway, maybe Larry will be cool and let me mail him cash.

The stock, barrel, trigger, lower, parts kit, handguard, muzzle device, sling, scope, scope ring, rail, spotting scope, bipod, shooting bag, range bag, mag, mag parts ... manufacturers, I am sure they are all cool with me mailing cash or I am sure they all have a store front, right? ... maybe I need to quit my job and drive around this massive country full time to pay cash everywhere, because even if I mail cash I am now in their system and it is a matter of time until they get audited.

And places like Bass Pro / Cabelas check LTC even if you are buying an empty plastic box. They will soon start recording that number so your cash won't be any good there.
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Us “two word guys” say more in those two words than all you novel writing hand wringers put together. 🤪
 
G Port said:
I don't need the high-end stuff, because I'll probably be dead before I am a proficient enough shooter to utilize high end stuff to its potential. I can see your problem though.

Maybe if vendors are really pro 2A they will undertake different payment plans. If a vendor agreed to take a personal check, with the caveat that they would not ship you the product until the check cleared, would you be ok with that? Big picture though, if the vendor keeps records, and they all do, then it's only a couple of extra steps for the .suck to pork your expectation of privacy.
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How about classifying gun stuff as tools and avoid the code completely?
 
Broc said:
Oh look, the two word guys are showing up ...

Yeah bro, let me call TSUSA and tell them I am mailing a check ...

Oh wait, they could track those as well.

Let me call them and tell them I will pick it up ... wait, do they allow that?

I will call Midway, maybe Larry will be cool and let me mail him cash.

The stock, barrel, trigger, lower, parts kit, handguard, muzzle device, sling, scope, scope ring, rail, spotting scope, bipod, shooting bag, range bag, mag, mag parts ... manufacturers, I am sure they are all cool with me mailing cash or I am sure they all have a store front, right? ... maybe I need to quit my job and drive around this massive country full time to pay cash everywhere, because even if I mail cash I am now in their system and it is a matter of time until they get audited.

And places like Bass Pro / Cabelas check LTC even if you are buying an empty plastic box. They will soon start recording that number so your cash won't be any good there.
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Local gun stores and cash. An enterprising local gun store would take orders from customers for all the items you mentioned, acquire the items with a small markup or convenience fee and have the customer pick up the items while paying cash. Solves all the tracking issues… even better if they allow payment in monero lol.

Sometimes convenience (i.e. online shopping) costs more than just the price we pay.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Amex carries a higher merchant fee that MC/Visa and shops operating on this margins are well aware of this. Last I checked, Four Seasons takes MC/VISA but not Amex for this reason.
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I think it’s 50/50 for the reason not to take Amex.
Half because of the fees
Half because of how they handle customer disputes. (Merchant loses and gets screwed and stops taking the card)
 
Rob Boudrie said:
What was concerning was a recent news report of someone busted for child porn based on a "tip from Verizon". The nature of the crime causes people to think "good", rather than "what does this mean for my rights to be secure in my effects, persons and papers?".

The concern is what level of monitoring is the ISP doing on accounts?
Click to expand...



 
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Amex carries a higher merchant fee that MC/Visa and shops operating on this margins are well aware of this. Last I checked, Four Seasons takes MC/VISA but not Amex for this reason.
Click to expand...
No, This was the case years many years ago before the rise of loyalty and cards from any of the major issuers that are tied to a bonus or loyalty program. The merchant processing business is a very predatory business with zero oversight and it's all based upon salesmanship and boiler room tactics. Some of the Visa/MC cards that are tied to bonus and loyalty programs are tiered higher than the typical Amex card. A smart business shops around for processing services and if anyone is paying more than ~2.5% for anything is overpaying. I think the distaste for Amex has ore to do with @CATI 's second point because Amex advocates for it's members and Visa/MC's loyalties are with the merchant.
CATI said:
I think it’s 50/50 for the reason not to take Amex.
Half because of the fees
Half because of how they handle customer disputes. (Merchant loses and gets screwed and stops taking the card)
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Second point, big time. First point, because they don't pay attention to fees and is too lazy to shop around.
 
mu2bdriver said:
No, This was the case years many years ago before the rise of loyalty and cards from any of the major issuers that are tied to a bonus or loyalty program
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I think Amex is still more. American Express Merchant Fees | Bankrate This is why you see MANY merchants that take MC/Visa but not Amex.

I've worked with a billing interface where one gets full card data, and the MC/Visa percent is a matrix - one axis is the vendor type, also incorporating things like "card present" or "card not present", and the other is the card tier (it's the category of card that influences the rate, not specific cardholder benefits - for example, a Visa Signature card carries a higher percentage than a regular visa. The percentage charged by merchant type is classic price discrimination - for example, gas stations and supermarkets pay a lower rate that retailers or dining establishments because a lower rate is needed to get business from the high volume/low margin businesses.

The merchant rate is also based on risk - for example, online merchants handling "card not present" transactions are in a higher risk category that "in your face card present" purchases.

Small merchants (for example, Hopkinton Sportsmens Association) tend to deal with payment processors like Stripe that charge something on the order of "2.9% + /.30 per transaction", not differentiated by card tier (the merchant is always charged enough to cover the most expensive card tier). Larger merchants in favorable categories use processors that do differentiate between card types. This can lead to the mistaken understanding among some merchants that there is no differentiation in the percentage based on the card tier .... because there isn't for them.

Debit cards have a much lower percentage fee. I've run into merchants that will take debit but not credit because of this... as well of those clueless enough to always run debit card usage as credit card charges.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
I think Amex is still more. American Express Merchant Fees | Bankrate This is why you see MANY merchants that take MC/Visa but not Amex.

I've worked with a billing interface where one gets full card data, and the MC/Visa percent is a matrix - one axis is the vendor type, also incorporating things like "card present" or "card not present", and the other is the card tier (it's the category of card that influences the rate, not specific cardholder benefits - for example, a Visa Signature card carries a higher percentage than a regular visa. The percentage charged by merchant type is classic price discrimination - for example, gas stations and supermarkets pay a lower rate that retailers or dining establishments because a lower rate is needed to get business from the high volume/low margin businesses.

The merchant rate is also based on risk - for example, online merchants handling "card not present" transactions are in a higher risk category that "in your face card present" purchases.

Small merchants (for example, Hopkinton Sportsmens Association) tend to deal with payment processors like Stripe that charge something on the order of "2.9% + /.30 per transaction", not differentiated by card tier (the merchant is always charged enough to cover the most expensive card tier). Larger merchants in favorable categories use processors that do differentiate between card types. This can lead to the mistaken understanding among some merchants that there is no differentiation in the percentage based on the card tier .... because there isn't for them.

Debit cards have a much lower percentage fee. I've run into merchants that will take debit but not credit because of this... as well of those clueless enough to always run debit card usage as credit card charges.
Click to expand...
It really depends on what you, as a merchant, can negotiate in writing, with your processor. For years, I dealt with shit processors who would routinely 'lie by exception' when it came to justifying their charges. We settled with Elavon who had much more transparent practices and policies, paid out much faster than other processors, and the technology was far superior to others. When it came to processing specific cards as of a coupe of years ago:

American Express (personal) had two tiers of charges: AESERV1 CP and AESERV2 CP. The first rate is 1.38% and the second is 2.80%. The difference between the two tiers is the kind of card: the lower rate card is just a basic AMEX card and the second rate is a rewards card, corporate card, or other loyalty/branded card. By comparison, VISA and MC fees range between 1.22% to 3.35% depending on the card used and the loyalty tiers involved. With the variety of cards out there, you have to call each issuer and ask them for a full list of cards and what tier that particular card falls into. It was an absolute pain in the ass to do this when we were dealing with prior processors because we didn't trust they were categorizing them correctly. It was interesting that an Amex Platimum was cheaper to process than a Capital One Visa.

There are four tiers of rates merchants are charged: qualified rate, partially-qualified rate, commercial non-qualified rate, and non-qualified rate. A merchant cannot determine which category a card falls under but the actions they take when processing these cards can affect what tier they fall into. If it is a commercial card, you can assume it falls under a commercial non-qualified rate and if it is a rewards or loyalty card we can assume it falls under a partially-qualified rate.

Rates for V/MC/DISC were:
1. Qualified rate - 1.22% + 0.12
2. Partially-qualified rate - 1.99% + 0.19
3. Commercial non-qualified rate - 2.65% + 0.29
4. Non-qualified rate - 3.35% + 0.29

Rates for Amex were:
1. Qualified rate - 1.38% + 0.19
2. Partially-qualified rate - 2.80% + 0.29
3. Commercial non-qualified rate - 3.50% + 0.29

When presented with a debit card, when we made sure to process it as a debit card because there were no percentage processing fees associated with it, just the 0.12 per transaction charge. If it is processed as a credit, all credit card processing fees are levied against the charge.

If the terminal prompted me for additional information, like a PIN, zip code or a CVV number, input it and do not skip over it. Skipping either step can send the charge from a qualified rate to a non-qualified rate. Closing the batch daily also ensures that all available charges get processed at the lowest possible rate. Keeping the batch open for more than 24 hours automatically pushes the charges to the next higher tier rate.

Within the four rats of V/MC/DISC there were various different levels of sub-tiers of categories. All of those sub-sections will be within one of the four main tiers.

There is also a nominal charge, usually between a dime and a quarter, per transaction. There are other determinations, like you mentioned, with 'card not present' or overriding the billing zip code request, which raises the fraud potential and therefore automatically pushes the transaction into the highest possible processing tier.

This is for a small business which was processing between 10-50 transactions per day on a seasonal basis and we found it worthwhile to stay with Elavon for subsequent renewal periods.

Details are for anyone dealing with merchant processing charges. Going through this and relaying best practices with employees can really make a difference in your margins.
 
When asked about this Discover responded by saying that they’re not the first to enact it, they’re just following others. Visa and MC refused comments when asked about their deployment schedule by Reuters. Are they already doing it?
 
Gonna have to tell us a card that won't eventually do this, I'm not getting rid of my card (I don't use for purchases anyway) just to replace the new one for the same reason a few months later
 
I thought it was already in place. I think the other Cc companies are already doing this or will be soon. I've never had discover myself.

Seen lots of chatter on this in some discussion groups. Not overly concerned yet. Just seems to be credit company doing what they do...categorizing purchases so they have more ways to target more advertising and/or selling that to others. Now if they're being asked to feed that info back to the government, that's more concerning. From what I understand through they can't tell whether someone bought an AR, lots of ammo, or some really expensive hunting apparel. Just a code all things related to shooting/hunting get lumped into.
God knows the government has enough way to track things based on the info they have now. Don't think this changes the game much.
 
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That, along with their shitty security process is another reason not to have a Discover card. When I one, I had to get a new card about every 3-4 months. The last straw was when the customer service rep told me that he'd set it up so that the post office would deliver it on July 4. Right, July 4th.
 

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