Dismayed and Bewildered

[MrMajestic]

My Sportsmens Club has a LTC . Persons who name it is under( club Prez) went to purchase a firearm for the club today, and was told unable to purchase.
Why?
Solutions?

 

[Goliathan]

Gonna need some context, there, bub.

 

[Agnotology]

He may want to contact a lawyer. He may have checked a bad box on his 4473. He might have some pending stuff you don't know about. ATF might have head in bum.

 

[Snora]

 

[StevieP]

..."was told unable to purchase. Why?"

Wouldn't the FFL know why? Doesn't the rejection SAY why?

 

[eboos]

 

[paul73]

dazed and confused?

and, i guess it HAS to be the same club that prohibits certain paper targets?

 

[terraformer]

My Sportsmens Club has a LTC . Persons who name it is under( club Prez) went to purchase a firearm for the club today, and was told unable to purchase.
Why?
Solutions?

You don't say who denied. State? Feds? Eventually Andover (the only club with one) will see this for the headache it is and give up, but until then, I am sure a call to FRB will lead to the specific answer as to why this particular issue is happening.

But It is also never been clear to me how one purchases guns for the club, other than transfers the guns into the clubs possession (which I don't believe can possess as per federal law) from an individual (which risks being seen as a straw purchase...). This entire gun club LTC licensing scheme, which was just a scheme to disarm us and put in place a Japan style gun control regime (google it), really makes no sense. If the "club" wants to be able to transfer firearms, they make an FFL for that. And I suspect that's the underlying issue, that the club needs an FFL and dealers license to properly do what they are doing anyhow. My 2 pence, and not an attorney either, not that I would trust an attorney on this issue anyhow.

 

[looser38]

..."was told unable to purchase. Why?"

Wouldn't the FFL know why? Doesn't the rejection SAY why?

No.

 

[Amputee Marksman]

At WSA we recently investigated getting an LTC for the club. A well known and respected 2A attorney here on NES told us it was bad idea and don't do it. We listened to them.

 

[CulperJr]

I have nothing to add. BUT can someone tell me what a club LTC is? Never heard of it

 

[paul73]

tell me what a club LTC is

its when cumulative fudd factor exceeds certain threshold, it 'just happens'.
a classic 'transition of quantity into quality' thing.

 

[Spartan65]

dazed and confused?

and, i guess it HAS to be the same club that prohibits certain paper targets?

the ?

Is this a friend of the rat?

 

[PaulR]

At WSA we recently investigated getting an LTC for the club. A well known and respected 2A attorney here on NES told us it was bad idea and don't do it. We listened to them.

This is a new one on me.
I'm glad I read this because I'm now backspacing over "what the F are you talking about?"

 

[Goliathan]

its when cumulative fudd factor exceeds certain threshold, it 'just happens'.
a classic 'transition of quantity into quality' thing.

When it accretes enough fudd matter, eventually the club collapses into an LTC singularity...

 

[appraiser]

a club LTC allows the club as a entity to purchase and hold guns in the name of the club for club/ members use.

Were they buying a gun to raffle off? That stinks of straw purchase to me

 

[CulperJr]

a club LTC allows the club as a entity to purchase and hold guns in the name of the club for club/ members use.

Were they buying a gun to raffle off? That stinks of straw purchase to me

Thank you for answering the question.

This seems like a really stupid idea

 

[M1911]

dazed and confused?

and, i guess it HAS to be the same club that prohibits certain paper targets?

They have to prohibit certain targets as long as the club has an LTC -- that's in the MGL.

 

[appraiser]

Thank you for answering the question.

This seems like a really stupid idea

one of the things that comes along with it is a club that holds a LTC can not allow the use of human looking targets or silhouettes on the property

 

[Goliathan]

They have to prohibit certain targets as long as the club has an LTC -- that's in the MGL.

Those silhouette targets are just a little too real...

 

[M1911]

Thank you for answering the question.

This seems like a really stupid idea

It is. See MGL Chapter 140 Section 131(b), which only applies to clubs that have LTCs:

(b) The colonel of state police may, after an investigation, grant a license to a club or facility with an on-site shooting range or gallery, which club is incorporated under the laws of the commonwealth for the possession, ... The club shall not permit shooting at targets that depict human figures, human effigies, human silhouettes or any human images thereof, except by public safety personnel performing in line with their official duties.

Note that this ONLY applies to clubs that have LTCs. It is my understanding that only 1 or 2 clubs in MA have a club LTC. Full text of the law here: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/Parti/Titlexx/Chapter140/Section131

 

[paul73]

They have to prohibit certain targets as long as the club has an LTC -- that's in the MGL.

'and many more' (c)

but if it also makes a president a prohibited person - it is a new bonus, not previously known.

 

[Lank]

Was he totally shitfaced? No id?

Lank demands answers

 

[Amputee Marksman]

Those silhouette targets are just a little too real...

For us it would have meant an end to our IDPA program. It also means, if I understand correctly, no members can hang any type of silhouette target.

 

[RKG]

I have nothing to add. BUT can someone tell me what a club LTC is? Never heard of it

G.L. ch. 140, § 131(b):

"(b) The colonel of state police may, after an investigation, grant a license to a club or facility with an on-site shooting range or gallery, which club is incorporated under the laws of the commonwealth for the possession, storage and use of large capacity weapons, ammunition therefor and large capacity feeding devices for use with such weapons on the premises of the club; provided, however, that not less than 1 shareholder of the club shall be qualified and suitable to be issued a license; and provided further, that such large capacity weapons and ammunition feeding devices may be used under the club license only by a member that possesses a valid firearm identification card issued pursuant to section 129B or a valid license to carry firearms, or by such other person that the club permits while under the direct supervision of a certified firearms safety instructor or club member who, in the case of a large capacity firearm, possesses a valid license to carry firearms or, in the case of a large capacity rifle or shotgun, possesses a valid license to carry firearms. The club shall not permit shooting at targets that depict human figures, human effigies, human silhouettes or any human images thereof, except by public safety personnel performing in line with their official duties.""

Note that, literally, this appears to authorize issuance of "a license to a club . . . for the possession, storage and use of" certain "weapons." That language does not appear literally to include "purchase."


Postscript: had I read to the end of the thread before posting this I would have seen that someone already had. Sorry for the duplication.

 

[KBCraig]

Wouldn't the FFL know why? Doesn't the rejection SAY why?

No. The NICS response is only "PROCEED" (with the sale), "DENY", or "DELAY".

No reasons are ever given. The person denied/delayed can call for clarification, but the FFL is not involved at all past that point.

 

[Asaltweapon]

I have nothing to add. BUT can someone tell me what a club LTC is? Never heard of it

It’s for when your wife wears the pants in the family and tells you you can’t buy a gun.

 

[AFAR/PFAR]

a club LTC allows the club as a entity to purchase and hold guns in the name of the club for club/ members use.

Were they buying a gun to raffle off? That stinks of straw purchase to me

Gun raffles happens everywhere. Perfectly legal provided the winner isn't a PP.

Edit, and thanks for the first sentence. That actually allowed me to make sense of whatever the OP was talking about.

 

[Quantavious G]

one of the things that comes along with it is a club that holds a LTC can not allow the use of human looking targets or silhouettes on the property

so if the local gendarmerie uses the club to train and qualify, are they prohibited from using silhouette targets?

 

[Goliathan]

so if the local gendarmerie uses the club to train and qualify, are they prohibited from using silhouette targets?

Nope. Typical cop carveout. Only us unwashed sub-citizens are prohibited.