Disparity in treatment...

[milktree]

tl;dr: Brittany smith shot and killed an attacker in her house who had raped her and attcked her brother.

She faces life in prison because she lost her "stand your ground" hearing.

Brittany Smith Loses Her Stand Your Ground Hearing

Only a handful of women in Alabama have ever won Stand Your Ground immunity, and women with convincing self-defense claims continue to lose.

www.newyorker.com

I have a theory (hypothesis, really) that women get treated more harshly for self defense because "women aren't supposed to have agency" or "women aren't supposed to be that way" or "women aren't supposed to be capable of violence" (even to defend themselves). When women defend themselves with totally legitimate lethal force, it's somehow a greater violation of "natural law" than when a man does the same thing, or even is the aggressor.

It's totally f***ed up.

 

[jhblaze1]

tl;dr: Brittany smith shot and killed an attacker in her house who had raped her and attcked her brother.

She faces life in prison because she lost her "stand your ground" hearing.

Brittany Smith Loses Her Stand Your Ground Hearing

Only a handful of women in Alabama have ever won Stand Your Ground immunity, and women with convincing self-defense claims continue to lose.

www.newyorker.com

I have a theory (hypothesis, really) that women get treated more harshly for self defense because "women aren't supposed to have agency" or "women aren't supposed to be that way" or "women aren't supposed to be capable of violence" (even to defend themselves). When women defend themselves with totally legitimate lethal force, it's somehow a greater violation of "natural law" than when a man does the same thing, or even is the aggressor.

It's totally f***ed up.

It would be interesting to see stats on incarcerations rates/sentence length in self defense shootings by gender....I doubt it would be easy to get good stats on that though.

I'm not sure women get treated more harshly though in any area whatsoever of the justice system. I think your premise is flawed. In almost all categories of crime, women tend to get off pretty light compared to men who committed the same crime.

 

[Lucas McCain]

The lack of modern day common sense makes a lot of this shit "totally f***ed up"!

 

[enbloc]

Do you mean "Women have better self-control"...?

 

[Dennis in MA]

and despite the fact that Brittany said Todd had been choking her brother when she fired the gun.

The judge needs some hands-on demonstrations, I think.

 

[drgrant]

I have a theory (hypothesis, really) that women get treated more harshly for self defense because "women aren't supposed to have agency" or "women aren't supposed to be that way" or "women aren't supposed to be capable of violence" (even to defend themselves). When women defend themselves with totally legitimate lethal force, it's somehow a greater violation of "natural law" than when a man does the same thing, or even is the aggressor.

At the jury level I would wholeheartedly disagree (I think women have a gigantic default advantage in SD cases, due to things like disparity of force, etc. ) but if we're talking "judges" etc you might be on to something.

-Mike

 

[drgrant]

It would be interesting to see stats on incarcerations rates/sentence length in self defense shootings by gender....I doubt it would be easy to get good stats on that though.

I'm not sure women get treated more harshly though in any area whatsoever of the justice system. I think your premise is flawed. In almost all categories of crime, women tend to get off pretty light compared to men who committed the same crime.

It would be even more useful it it broke down Jury vs Judge decided verdicts, etc. I would bet anything that that the acquittal rate on women in front of a jury is far higher than it is for men.

Of course part of the problem is with legal proceedings is something doesn't always get demarcated a "self defense" case. So you have to weed out the trash somehow before even getting
to that point.

-Mike

 

[Deleted member 67409]

At the jury level I would wholeheartedly disagree (I think women have a gigantic default advantage in SD cases, due to things like disparity of force, etc. ) but if we're talking "judges" etc you might be on to something.

-Mike

Being wholly unfamiliar with the ins and outs of Alabama self-defense law, I'm assuming a "Stand your Ground Hearing" is a pre-trial hearing to determine whether self-defense is determinate of the case. Basically a motion to dismiss based on self-defense? Something like that would only have a judge and no jury. Juries don't show up until the trial. Anything pre-trial, which is probably 95-99% of the time spent on a case in general, is judge-only. Whether or not its one judge or multiple judges over the course of pre-trial depends on the state.

...

During my first year of law school criminal law class, we went over self-defense from the point of view of battered woman syndrome, in addition to other viewpoints. For those not in the know:

Battered person syndrome - Wikipedia

The problem with a lot of domestic self-defense shoots, where the husband beats up the wife and she shoots the husband when he's sleeping or inebriated or can't defend himself sometime later, is that the wife shoots the husband after the abuse is over. Say a few hours, a day, a week. Makes logical sense because if you're getting the crap beat out of you, your opportunity to shoot back is likely zero. So the spouse (woman normally) shoots when she has the opportunity. Which doesn't work with self-defense law.

A normal "clean shoot" would work like this: Paddy punches Joe. Joe gets knocked down. Paddy keeps punching Joe and hitting his head against a curbstone. Joe shoots Paddy dead to get him off. There's no break in time. There's no break in causation. There's a clear temporal and causational link between Paddy's attack and Joe's self-defense shoot.

With domestic abuse shoots, there's a temporal and causational break. Joe goes home and beats up Cheryl. Joe stops eventually and goes to bed. Cheryl takes Joe's hunting shotgun and learns the effectiveness of 00 buck on a deer-sized target laying in bed at a distance of five feet. There's a break between the abuse and the shoot. Cheryl had time to think about the consequences of effectively stealing a shotgun and using it to murder (taking the life of another person with malice aforethought, she wanted to kill Joe) Joe. Cheryl, in theory, had time to escape or call the cops. But instead, she chose to murder Joe, which is how the prosecutor's going to see it.

Self-defense law doesn't really allow for breaks in the timeline, which is why spouses who kill abusive partners usually get screwed.

 

[amm5061]

I have a better question: why the f*** was this a "Stand Your Ground" case, when it seems that it was in her house, the guy was not invited in, on meth, and attacked everyone in sight along with raping her and knocking her unconscious? Add to that the assertion that she shot him while he was actively attacking her brother.

This should be textbook castle doctrine; self-defense against intruders in the home. According to the google machine, Alabama has such a law on the books, with no duty to retreat. This piece of shit deserved to take one between the eyes and society as a whole is improved by his removal.

 

[Deleted member 67409]

I have a better question: why the f*** was this a "Stand Your Ground" case, when it seems that it was in her house, the guy was not invited in, on meth, and attacked everyone in sight along with raping her and knocking her unconscious? Add to that the assertion that she shot him while he was actively attacking her brother.

This should be textbook castle doctrine; self-defense against intruders in the home. According to the google machine, Alabama has such a law on the books, with no duty to retreat. This piece of shit deserved to take one between the eyes and society as a whole is improved by his removal.

The judge who denied the motion won an award from the "Progressive Women of Northeast Alabama." Might be indicative.

Jenifer C. Holt - Ballotpedia

 

[67ray]

This Brittany Smith is getting a raw deal that is for sure. But the author's thesis that she isn't getting the Stand Your Ground defense because she is a woman - that is a far stretch.

I ask will there be a jury that convicts her of murder? Maybe but I don't think so. The bigger problem is the effect it will have on her life even if found not guilty.

Remember that you NESers who proclaim this technicality or that discussing their own right to shoot in any given situation. Even if you win, you still lose.

 

[Dennis in MA]

Sometimes judges are dinks. And sometimes they just feel that something should "be put through the process."

Years ago I had a client. They took care of the next door neighbor. The neighbor had a daughter that had been estranged for decades. 25 years or more. Client took care of this woman in her aging years. SEVERAL years before her death, she writes a will and leaves the house to client.

Woman dies.

Daughter comes back in demanding the house.

The case was frighteningly open-and-shut. Estranged for decades. No attempt at seeing Mom before she died of her long illness. Will drawn YEARS before death. Everything going for it.

Several times, the judge would not grand summary judgement. FORCED it to trial. Client spent thousands on atty and then thousands to just pay her off when it was clear she was never going away. Basically, the judge agreed that it seemed open-and-shut but he wanted a trial just to be sure. What an ass.

 

[amm5061]

The judge who denied the motion won an award from the "Progressive Women of Northeast Alabama." Might be indicative.

Jenifer C. Holt - Ballotpedia

Ruling against women is very un-progressive of her. I thought we were supposed to #believeallwomen

 

[Squire]

The judge who denied the motion won an award from the "Progressive Women of Northeast Alabama." Might be indicative.

Jenifer C. Holt - Ballotpedia

This. The issue is that the Cult of Progressivism chose anti-gun doctrine over an individual Woman's right to self defense. Brittany is a white Alabama woman, expendible to the progressive movement.

I am sickened by this, and it's clear that Democrats and the Progressive Left are Evil incarnate, and are only after the Power that comes from controlling the Collective.

 

[bigben111435]

It is disheartening to see Alabama is the state.
AL might be the MOST gun friendly state in the country.
If not the most gun friendly, top 3.

 

[drgrant]

It is disheartening to see Alabama is the state.
AL might be the MOST gun friendly state in the country.
If not the most gun friendly, top 3.

Not really a shocker though, a lot of those states have very f***o, disjointed self defense laws.....

 

[bigben111435]

Not really a shocker though, a lot of those states have very f***o, disjointed self defense laws.....

Yup, she should have shot him in Florida.

 

[Kevin_NH]

The hearing went against Brittany for good reason -- every step of the way, her account of the events that night changed, so it's reasonable to bring this to trial.

Brittany Smith says she was forced to shoot Todd Smith after he raped her in her home and then began to assault her brother when he showed up, concerned for her safety. Unfortunately, Brittany Smith’s story changed over time. She originally told 911 that she had not been raped, for instance, and she and her brother also told police in her first interview that it was her brother, not her, who fired the shots that killed Todd Smith. According to the New Yorker‘s Flock, those inconsistencies influenced the judge’s decision to deny Brittany Smith’s Stand Your Ground defense.

As the saying goes, unsympathetic defendants establish bad legal precedents. In this case, Smith was sympathetic, but an unreliable narrator.

 

[Palladin]

one step above Deliverence

 

[Deleted member 67409]

The hearing went against Brittany for good reason -- every step of the way, her account of the events that night changed, so it's reasonable to bring this to trial.

As the saying goes, unsympathetic defendants establish bad legal precedents. In this case, Smith was sympathetic, but an unreliable narrator.

That's what I was thinking too, that she's an unreliable narrator. The problem is that there's three witnesses to the attack: one is dead, another got charged, and the last one is biased towards the defendant. Not having been in the courtroom, I can't say how reliable the testimony was.