Elderly man shot, killed by officer performing welfare check

[GPP]

Do police have a specific duty to any specific individual or not, absent a special relationship existing? Absent said duty (which doesn't exist per SCOTUS or DC Court of Appeals) it logically follows there can't be liability. Also please cite where a municipality shelled out $ for lack of carrying out a wellness check. Being sued is not equivalent to actually being liable.

Again, I get what youre saying in regards to specific duty to any specific individual etc.
I dont have a cite where a municipality shelled out $, because its irrelevant. Whether there are cases or there arent, it doesnt make a difference.
Why? Because of reality. Real world, everyday stuff. If the boss thinks he/she can be sued for not carrying out a H&W check, his perception becomes our reality. Youre told to make entry by your shift commander, you make entry. How you then conduct yourself once inside falls on the individual.
Unfortunately, it still all falls under the umbrella of liability, even though it shouldnt.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

I think the real lesson here is if you care about family, get off your ass and take care of them yourself. I just don't see why the police even became involved here.

+1

And GPP is correct.

 

[Tyke]

Again, I get what youre saying in regards to specific duty to any specific individual etc.
I dont have a cite where a municipality shelled out $, because its irrelevant. Whether there are cases or there arent, it doesnt make a difference.
Why? Because of reality. Real world, everyday stuff. If the boss thinks he/she can be sued for not carrying out a H&W check, his perception becomes our reality. Youre told to make entry by your shift commander, you make entry. How you then conduct yourself once inside falls on the individual.
Unfortunately, it still all falls under the umbrella of liability, even though it shouldnt.

Opinions and perceptions that affect you (and you only) does not liability make. It influences your decisions, and rightly so, but not actual liability.

 

[namedpipes]

... You're told to make entry by your shift commander, you make entry. How you then conduct yourself once inside falls on the individual. ...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...wing-orders-but-took-pride-in-atrocities.html

I don't mean to imply that the officer sought to kill somebody that night because he "could", but the excuse of "just following orders" is getting VERY tired.

That officer HAD options. Some others already laid out and the most sensible seems to be, back out of the house shouting that you're "police checking on his welfare at his families request - call 911 to verify"

While terrible if he were shot by the old man while trying to do a good deed, what actually HAPPENED was much worse.

 

[Spanz]

it happens.

was hunting in the woods, and my friend accidentally shot himself

I panicked, and called 911

ME: "Friend is lying on the ground, He is not moving, I think he might be dead...."

911: "well....can you make sure? "

ME: "BANG...ok what's next?"

 

[EddieCoyle]

What kind of family leaves an elderly man to recuperate from heart surgery BY HIMSELF?

That was my first thought too.

 

[namedpipes]

http://youtu.be/6QcfZGDvHU8

A few sentries should help to keep the property secure.

 

[mattyw]

Actually the grand jury "No billed" that case, it didn't even make it to a trial court.

depends which case we are talking about, there have been a few

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Man-who-shot-at-cops-acquitted-5608077.php
this one went to trial, another one or two recently were no billed

- - - Updated - - -

so I can call a health and wellness check on anyone I want and the police will break into their homes without a warrant and based only on my word?

 

[Pete85]

Why can't people on welfare get this type of welfare check?

 

[Squire]

Why can't people on welfare get this type of welfare check?

That's pretty good...

 

[AngelKing]

and the comments in the body of the story are enough to make me vomit...

Audrey Culpepper Childers · Charlotte, NC

Gayla Coykendall WTF are you talking about! Brad said the officer should of turned around & left. I was responding to that comment..The old man is dead because he had a gun, he probably didn't hear the officer being 74 years old. You need to experience a life of a police officer..

 

[JClark]

I haven't heard anything on the news yet but I'm assuming that nursing homes and assisted living complexes around the country are buzzing with cries of "Elderly lives matter!" and that the rioting will start soon.

 

[mibro]

I think your "blanket immunity" is a bit of a stretch. Obviously, LE gets away with substantially more bad/good shoots than the citizens, and I agree, its bullshit.
Summary execution? Again, quite the stretch. When I was in patrol and got sent to a call with certain officers, I totally knew I was gonna be rolling around on the deck with someone, because certain guys will escalate situations for a multitude of reasons, but ultimately because they are *******s. And yes, those guys should be off tbe job, I know.
The guys being drawn to police work? Millenials. The last 10 guys we hired? All had college degrees in CJ (big ****ing deal it means squat in the real world), and not one of them had been in an actual physical fight with someone, and only 2 of them had been former military. Nope, they are attracted by the pay, retirement, and the badge. A very small % are attracted because they want to blow someone away.

I wish to thank you for your courteous and measured responses throughout this thread, under a lot of provocation. If I ever need help from the police, I hope it's you that shows up.

The police in my town are great and I think that's generally true throughout Massachusetts.

 

[Martlet]

I think the real lesson here is if you care about family, get off your ass and take care of them yourself. I just don't see why the police even became involved here.

This.

 

[GPP]

depends which case we are talking about, there have been a few

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Man-who-shot-at-cops-acquitted-5608077.php
this one went to trial, another one or two recently were no billed

- - - Updated - - -

so I can call a health and wellness check on anyone I want and the police will break into their homes without a warrant and based only on my word?

Pretty much, yes. Its a ridiculous system.

 

[GPP]

I wish to thank you for your courteous and measured responses throughout this thread, under a lot of provocation. If I ever need help from the police, I hope it's you that shows up.

The police in my town are great and I think that's generally true throughout Massachusetts.

I think for the most part, the local MA LEOs are pretty good, though there are a bunch of bad examples that's for sure. I personally have no use for the MSP, they bring nothing to the table, but of course that's just my opinion.

 

[GPP]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/sci...wing-orders-but-took-pride-in-atrocities.html

I don't mean to imply that the officer sought to kill somebody that night because he "could", but the excuse of "just following orders" is getting VERY tired.

That officer HAD options. Some others already laid out and the most sensible seems to be, back out of the house shouting that you're "police checking on his welfare at his families request - call 911 to verify"

While terrible if he were shot by the old man while trying to do a good deed, what actually HAPPENED was much worse.

I guess Im missing your point? I think we all agree the officer had options once inside the house that didn't include shooting the homeowner. But where do you get the "just following orders" piece? I doubt he was ordered to shoot the homeowner, but he was ordered to gain entry. Is that the Nazi correlation youre making?

 

[namedpipes]

I guess Im missing your point? I think we all agree the officer had options once inside the house that didn't include shooting the homeowner. But where do you get the "just following orders" piece? I doubt he was ordered to shoot the homeowner, but he was ordered to gain entry. Is that the Nazi correlation you're making?

A long stressful day, so perhaps that wasn't the fairest comparison. However, you stated if the commander says go in, you're going in. "Just following orders".

Regardless of whatever rationale the police used to justify it, it was a violation of that man's rights to break into his home.

To then compound it with (take your pick of human error, malice or just bad training) and kill him is just horrible.

 

[GPP]

A long stressful day, so perhaps that wasn't the fairest comparison. However, you stated if the commander says go in, you're going in. "Just following orders".

Regardless of whatever rationale the police used to justify it, it was a violation of that man's rights to break into his home.

To then compound it with (take your pick of human error, malice or just bad training) and kill him is just horrible.

Got ya, and I agree that making entry like that is a violation of the mans rights, unfortunately, I don't make the rules. The shift commander tells you to go in, and you don't? You run the risk of getting disciplined etc. Its a shitty system. When we get 911 hangup calls, this happens sometimes too. Make entry if no one answers the phone on call back, or answers the door when the officer responds. Why? because there could be someone in there that has fallen and cant get up, or some sort of cloaked villain may have the family at gunpoint. Its a ridiculous way to conduct business, I agree.

 

[Martlet]

Got ya, and I agree that making entry like that is a violation of the mans rights, unfortunately, I don't make the rules. The shift commander tells you to go in, and you don't? You run the risk of getting disciplined etc. Its a shitty system. When we get 911 hangup calls, this happens sometimes too. Make entry if no one answers the phone on call back, or answers the door when the officer responds. Why? because there could be someone in there that has fallen and cant get up, or some sort of cloaked villain may have the family at gunpoint. Its a ridiculous way to conduct business, I agree.

So keeping your job is more important than intentionally and knowingly violating a citizen's rights? Anyone with that attitude is a shitty cop and shouldn't have a job.

 

[Jason Flare]

I haven't heard anything on the news yet but I'm assuming that nursing homes and assisted living complexes around the country are buzzing with cries of "Elderly lives matter!" and that the rioting will start soon.

As soon as they can figure out that the hook and eye lock is 3/4 the way up the door they're on this.

 

[GPP]

So keeping your job is more important than intentionally and knowingly violating a citizen's rights? Anyone with that attitude is a shitty cop and shouldn't have a job.

Its certainly not that black and white. Just because I think its a violation of a citizens rights, doesn't mean that it is. Theres already case law on this shit, the police conducting a warrantless B&E is legal in some situations. The "community caretaker" umbrella is giant.
Making the entry didn't make this guy a shitty cop, killing the 75 year old man did.

 

[pastera]

Several times the police forced their way into my parent's house during a wellness check to find my dad collapsed or completely disoriented.
Difference was my mom, at work, called them when he wouldn't answer the phone knowing he was most probably down. As a nurse, she couldn't just leave every time he didn't respond if a neighbor wasn't around to check.

Shit happens - unfortunately that shit turned into a bad decision to shoot versus retreat.

Phone post: intelligence not included

 

[Martlet]

Several times the police forced their way into my parent's house during a wellness check to find my dad collapsed or completely disoriented.
Difference was my mom, at work, called them when he wouldn't answer the phone knowing he was most probably down. As a nurse, she couldn't just leave every time he didn't respond if a neighbor wasn't around to check.

Shit happens - unfortunately that shit turned into a bad decision to shoot versus retreat.

Phone post: intelligence not included

Sorry. The "I don't have the time to care for my husband, you do it" excuse just doesn't fly with me in that scenario. Maybe it does with others.

 

[namedpipes]

Several times the police forced their way into my parent's house during a wellness check to find my dad collapsed or completely disoriented.
Difference was my mom, at work, called them when he wouldn't answer the phone knowing he was most probably down. As a nurse, she couldn't just leave every time he didn't respond if a neighbor wasn't around to check. ...

As a nurse I think she should have known better than to leave a person that repeatedly has a breakdown like that, alone.

Turning the PD into defacto nurses aides is, well amusing if we could get them to wear the nurse uniforms, but at any rate, it's inappropriate.


On the plus side, at least it was an occupant of that home asking for a welfare check there, as opposed to inflicting it on someone else's home.

 

[pastera]

Sorry. The "I don't have the time to care for my husband, you do it" excuse just doesn't fly with me in that scenario. Maybe it does with others.

Okay, I'll bite on that bait.
Mom was a critical care stroke nurse.
Dad was a diabetic who had several minor strokes resulting in reoccurring events that left him in a debilitated state.
Local police have a program that you can sign up for that provides wellness checks for people with medical conditions like my dad had.

So, should she have sat home with him 24/7 to account for the one or two times a year that she or a neighbor wouldn't be around? What about the patients that she cared for with her 30+ years experience?

Police departments in communities with a large senior population do wellness checks as part of their normal routine - it's not like their busy breaking up noisy keg parties.

If you pay taxes should you not take advantage of a service offered that is funded by those same taxes?

Phone post: intelligence not included

 

[namedpipes]

...
So, should she have sat home with him 24/7 to account for the one or two times a year that she or a neighbor wouldn't be around? What about the patients that she cared for with her 30+ years experience?
...

If he needed 24/7 care then he needed 24/7 care. Not periodic visits from the police.

Also, NOT equivalent to the welfare check this thread is about. You describe a program that is opted into and well known in advance by the people involved. Not a random, out of the blue, 0 dark 30 breakin through a back door...

 

[Martlet]

If he needed 24/7 care then he needed 24/7 care. Not periodic visits from the police.

Also, NOT equivalent to the welfare check this thread is about. You describe a program that is opted into and well known in advance by the people involved. Not a random, out of the blue, 0 dark 30 breakin through a back door...

This.

 

[xtry51]

I'd rather police be 1) addressing real crimes either active ones or older unsolved cases or 2) sitting around in the office like the Maytag repair guy or a firefighter.

Seriously. Police are emergency responders, not fricking nannies. If you or a family member need a check in, get a family member/friend/neighbor or pay a nurse to stop by. This topic should not involve police period.

 

[GPP]

I'd rather police be 1) addressing real crimes either active ones or older unsolved cases or 2) sitting around in the office like the Maytag repair guy or a firefighter.

Seriously. Police are emergency responders, not fricking nannies. If you or a family member need a check in, get a family member/friend/neighbor or pay a nurse to stop by. This topic should not involve police period.

Agreed on all points. The problem is, this practice already exists, and isn't going away anytime soon.

Pastera, Im curious, had the cops not gained entry to your parents home after your mom called , and your dad passed because of that fact, who would you and your family hold accountable for your dads death?