FA-10 "wording" Re: AR15 Lower in MA

[CIby1012]

I bought a stripped M&P15 lower in NH a few years back and when I filled out my FA-10 to report it in MA I wrote the model as "M&P15 LOW REC." Not sure why I decided to do that, maybe it said it on the box It came in. Regardless, its now a complete rifle. Do I need to send in (waste) another FA-10 to notify the state that its a full rifle and not just a LOW REC anymore? I feel like this is a minor detail, but you never know with this state...

Thanks in advance.

 

[HTRN]

I bought a stripped M&P15 lower in NH a few years back and when I filled out my FA-10 to report it in MA I wrote the model as "M&P15 LOW REC." Not sure why I decided to do that, maybe it said it on the box It came in. Regardless, its now a complete rifle. Do I need to send in (waste) another FA-10 to notify the state that its a full rifle and not just a LOW REC anymore? I feel like this is a minor detail, but you never know with this state...

Thanks in advance.

Yes, you didn't have to file the last one, but you do have to file one now.


Sent from my mobile device, please excuse typos and brevity.

 

[Kevlar]

As HTRN said, submitting a FA-10 on the lower receiver was unnecessary.

As it's now "...capable of discharging a shot or bullet...", a FA-10 is required.

 

[George D]

You did it backwards but along as you register it correctly now, you are fine. MA doesn't want FA-10's on lowers but some gun stores still transfer them to you on FA-10's.

 

[CIby1012]

What If I buy an upper with a different barrel length? Say Its registered as a 20'' barrel, and later I buy/install a 16''? Do I need to re-register a whole new FA-10?

 

[JCat]

You did it backwards but along as you register it correctly now, you are fine. MA doesn't want FA-10's on lowers but some gun stores still transfer them to you on FA-10's.

If you buy a stripped lower through an FFL, and go through the normal registration process (NICS, MA fingerprint thing, etc.), do you have to submit an FA-10 upon completing a build?

 

[Colt Delta Elite]

If you buy a stripped lower through an FFL, and go through the normal registration process (NICS, MA fingerprint thing, etc.), do you have to submit an FA-10 upon completing a build?

YES

 

[inerlogic]

hrrmm... my zombie lower was transferred via FA-10, just like any other firearm i've bought from a dealer....
no one's ever said anything about registering it again..... they've already got the S/N registered to my name.... good enough

 

[JCat]

hrrmm... my zombie lower was transferred via FA-10, just like any other firearm i've bought from a dealer....
no one's ever said anything about registering it again..... they've already got the S/N registered to my name.... good enough

Yeah same, I had never heard anything about registering again after a build. Delta - can you provide a source for this info?

 

[inerlogic]

https://mircs.chs.state.ma.us/fa10/action/home?app_context=home&app_action=presentTrans
Transaction List

Personal Sale or Transfer

Use this option if you are a Massachusetts resident and you sold or transferred a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun to another person or to a dealer, and you conducted the sale or transfer personally or through an agent.

Registration

Use this option if 1) you are a Massachusetts resident and you obtained a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun from out of state 2) you recently moved to Massachusetts and you wish to record ownership of a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun or 3) you possess a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun and there is no record of the weapon on file with the Firearms Records Bureau.

Loss or Theft

Use this option if a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun owned by you was lost or stolen.

Inheritance

Use this option if you obtained a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun upon the death of the previous owner.

Surrender Weapon to Police

Use this option if you surrendered a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun to a police department because your firearms license has been denied, suspended, revoked or expired.

Transfer to Buyer After Surrender

Use this option if you transferred your weapon(s) to another person or to a dealer after you surrendered your weapon(s) to a police department because your license had been denied, suspended, revoked or expired.

Generate Firearms License Validation

Use this option to produce proof that your license is valid before you purchase a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun from another individual or before you purchase a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun at a gun show or other non-gun shop location.

nope, nothing applies.....
not even:

3) you possess a firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun and there is no record of the weapon on file with the Firearms Records Bureau.

because the FRB DOES have a record of the firearm, because the dealer filed one when they transferred it to me....

i'm thinking you're confused about assembling a lower and MANUFACTURING a firearm....

putting a lower parts kit together and adding an upper is NOT "manufacturing" a firearm.... a completed (fully machined) stripped lower is a firearm already.....

 

[Kevlar]

hrrmm... my zombie lower was transferred via FA-10, just like any other firearm i've bought from a dealer.... no one's ever said anything about registering it again..... they've already got the S/N registered to my name.... good enough

IMO, the legal argument of "I didn't submit the FA-10 as required, because the dealer submitted one which wasn't required" is shaky at best.

The law doesn't state that a FA-10 has to be "on file somewhere" for a particular gun, it states that the resident must submit a FA-10 within 7 days of acquisition, or in this case, upon completion, as it would then constitute a "rifle", as defined below.

IANAL, YMMV etc.

...a completed (fully machined) stripped lower is a firearm already.....

Only pursuant to Federal law...

(3) The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;...

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title18/html/USCODE-2011-title18-partI-chap44-sec921.htm

It's only a firearm, rifle or shotgun under MA law when it is "...capable of firing a shot or bullet..."...

“Firearm”, a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged...

“Rifle”, a weapon having a rifled bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 16 inches and capable of discharging a shot or bullet...

“Shotgun”, a weapon having a smooth bore with a barrel length equal to or greater than 18 inches ... capable of discharging a shot or bullet...

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

 

[cekim]

MA LAW FAIL, who didn't see that coming.

The answer is "yes" and "no" and "yes," which is why some dealers CTA and do FA-10 on them and some don't.

MA law defines a firearm differently than federal law... Hilarity ensues.

 

[StevieP]

What blows is that anyone even needs to ask this question. What sucks is that there isn't a unanimous answer.

 

[inerlogic]

MA LAW FAIL, who didn't see that coming.

The answer is "yes" and "no" and "yes," which is why some dealers CTA and do FA-10 on them and some don't.

MA law defines a firearm differently than federal law... Hilarity ensues.

eh, FRB has the SN on file, registered to me.....
if i register it to me again, and for some reason someone shows up on my door with a list of SNs i'm supposed to own, i don't want them looking for TWO ZA-15's with serial number ZA000069


*not my actual serial number unfortunately...

 

[Romokid]

So this is for guys who did FA-10 on just the lowers....what barrel length did you say it had?

I suppose if you said 16" back then and now built it with a 16" you would be good to go. Come to think of it, if you said 16" and it now has a 20" I suppose its no big deal either as you don't have to keep filling FA-10's for each upper. I was wondering what if you put 0".

 

[inerlogic]

So this is for guys who did FA-10 on just the lowers....what barrel length did you say it had?

I suppose if you said 16" back then and now built it with a 16" you would be good to go. Come to think of it, if you said 16" and it now has a 20" I suppose its no big deal either as you don't have to keep filling FA-10's for each upper. I was wondering what if you put 0".

i'll check my copy when i get home.... don't remember what the shop put.... might've been "0," "none," or "20"

 

[cekim]

eh, FRB has the SN on file, registered to me.....
if i register it to me again, and for some reason someone shows up on my door with a list of SNs i'm supposed to own, i don't want them looking for TWO ZA-15's with serial number ZA000069


*not my actual serial number unfortunately...

The system is a cluster!@#$, I don't think anyone can realistically say otherwise. As an FFL, you are generally governed by Federal laws and definitions of a firearm (well, you are governed by both, but where one says it is and one says it isn't, you go with the most restrictive definition that says it is).

I can't blame an FFL for doing an FA-10 on a stripped lower because the ATF says it is a firearm.

As for what you put on it? Hell if I know...

 

[CIby1012]

So this is for guys who did FA-10 on just the lowers....what barrel length did you say it had?

I suppose if you said 16" back then and now built it with a 16" you would be good to go. Come to think of it, if you said 16" and it now has a 20" I suppose its no big deal either as you don't have to keep filling FA-10's for each upper. I was wondering what if you put 0".

I didn't put a barrel length. I registered it as "MP15 LOW REC"

 

[jasons]

I didn't put a barrel length. I registered it as "MP15 LOW REC"

Nice. You probably caused the whole system to core dump.

 

[Len-2A Training]

i'll check my copy when i get home.... don't remember what the shop put.... might've been "0," "none," or "20"

If it had a length of 16" or more on the original, I wouldn't file another one. Theoretically FRB has told dealers NOT to file on frames or airguns and if they spot it (0" length bbl) they toss them and don't scan them in.

I witnessed a sale of a bare bones 1911 frame to someone and the seller put down 5" bbl and .45ACP in spite of what it was. Similar issue . . . when the buyer builds it up, no need to do another FA-10 even though the first one should never have been done (IMNSHO).

The system is a cluster!@#$, I don't think anyone can realistically say otherwise. As an FFL, you are generally governed by Federal laws and definitions of a firearm (well, you are governed by both, but where one says it is and one says it isn't, you go with the most restrictive definition that says it is).

I can't blame an FFL for doing an FA-10 on a stripped lower because the ATF says it is a firearm.

As for what you put on it? Hell if I know...

I can blame them . . . they were allegedly advised by FRB NOT to do it (and this was several years ago).

 

[cekim]

I can blame them . . . they were allegedly advised by FRB NOT to do it (and this was several years ago).

Another unsigned letter?

Is this policy available for review by dealers who have come on line since then? How about employees who need reference after the dealers were "told?"

 

[Len-2A Training]

I'll bet that letter was signed. Unsigned letters are for "special cases" (no fingerprints)!

It's in MGLs which MA Dealers are obligated to know (but many don't read or can't read even if the definition is in plain English in this case). I have no direct knowledge on when/how this info is transmitted other than in seminars given by Glidden (pretty sure Jason said he does MA Dealer law seminars too). It might have been stated in the MA Dealers seminar given by Jason and BATFE last month also.

 

[cekim]

I'll bet that letter was signed. Unsigned letters are for "special cases" (no fingerprints)!

It's in MGLs which MA Dealers are obligated to know (but many don't read or can't read even if the definition is in plain English in this case). I have no direct knowledge on when/how this info is transmitted other than in seminars given by Glidden (pretty sure Jason said he does MA Dealer law seminars too). It might have been stated in the MA Dealers seminar given by Jason and BATFE last month also.

They are obligated to know, but what you would know if you knew them is unknown.

As I heard one dealer say, "are you going to pay my legal bills?" Agree or not, this is not an unreasonable view point when the penalty for excessive registration, lacking any malice, is the cost of a stamp and envelope (or less if you do it electronically).

 

[CIby1012]

I just called the firearms bureau in my town, she didn't sound very versed on the AR platform and when I explained my question, she was confused and just kept saying. "I see it registered here, it's likely that you did the right thing." I think Im going to leave it be, because I dont want them thinking I have two of the same rifle.

Side note - When she looked up my file she said; "wow, you have a lot of guns." (I own 9, and just recently sold one). Anyone ells get reactions like that from their PD's? I think 9 is a modest amount compared to most collectors.

 

[cekim]

I just called the firearms bureau in my town, she didn't sound very versed on the AR platform and when I explained my question, she was confused and just kept saying. "I see it registered here, it's likely that you did the right thing." I think Im going to leave it be, because I dont want them thinking I have two of the same rifle.

Side note - When she looked up my file she said; "wow, you have a lot of guns." (I own 9, and just recently sold one). Anyone ells get reactions like that from their PD's? I think 9 is a modest amount compared to most collectors.

If you want to get an "official" answer, I would not call your local PD, but rather call the FRB/CHSB itself.

Of course, they will give you a policy answer which may or may not be legally valid or tested in the courts, but it avoids the filter of the local PD who are generally and understandably as confused about such things as we are.

 

[dwarven1]

When she looked up my file she said; "wow, you have a lot of guns." (I own 9, and just recently sold one).

She'd have a hemorrhage if she looked up what some of us have!

 

[inerlogic]

She'd have a hemorrhage if she looked up what some of us have!

yeh, the kid with the Subaru and the P64 and flare launcher had what was described as "An Arsenal" by Anne Allred on channel 7 this morning..... she should've seen my car with SKS Ray and i headed to NH!

hrrmm.... i should make HER my +1 next time.......

 

[cekim]

She'd have a hemorrhage if she looked up what some of us have!

"and I see you have a dog too... please stay on the line..."

 

[Len-2A Training]

She'd have a hemorrhage if she looked up what some of us have!

Which in itself is good enough reason to NEVER contact your PD about such matters. You just never know how they might react (think "suitability")!!

They don't understand that some people collect guns like some women collect shoes!

 

[inerlogic]

Which in itself is good enough reason to NEVER contact your PD about such matters. You just never know how they might react (think "suitability")!!

They don't understand that some people collect guns like some women collect shoes!

my wife asked me why i needed so many guns, i asked her why she needed so many shoes, she zipped right up!