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Finding the sweet spot - need help to understand the routine
- Thread starter paul73
- Start date
so, i got some results, out of 20 packs of reloads. Like some folks wrote on sniperhide - this 73gr eld hornady bullet is not easy to be pleased.
left side is AA2520 powder, right side numbers #16 to #19 are on AA2495 powder, it seemed to produce generally way better (but slower) results than AA2520 overall, with #18 to be tightest at 22.5gn and 2546 average fps.
the groups on the left #10 to #15 are the best ones for AA2520, first 9 are much worse, that is difficult to believe.
#10, #11, #12 are all on 24.1gn powder with 3 different seating depths and none worked well.
#13 and #14 are at 23gn, with #13 sitting deeper at stock COL and #14 at .005 out. #13 speeds were 2544 in average, one slowest was 2490 and fastest 2606.
#15 was at 23.5gn same seating at 13. i can see one round there that went up clocked at 2699 when rest are about of 2590-2605.
in AA2495 - 21gn worked (#16), 22gn did not (#17)
#18 was 22.5gn - as good as #16, and #19 at 23gn did spread out again.
everything with aa2520 loads at and above 24gn did spread out abysmally.
only odd exception was a set 5 with 24.5gn and max mag allowed depth of 2.265 that clocked at 2750fps and did a 1.5MOA group - not great, but, not a 4" spread either.
hmm, and #9 is comparable but faster at 25.3gn and same max 2.265 COL.
it seems to contradict completely results for 23gn where best set was #13 sitting the deepest.
odd that 25gn, 24gn, 25.5gn results were all crap for aa2520.
left side is AA2520 powder, right side numbers #16 to #19 are on AA2495 powder, it seemed to produce generally way better (but slower) results than AA2520 overall, with #18 to be tightest at 22.5gn and 2546 average fps.
the groups on the left #10 to #15 are the best ones for AA2520, first 9 are much worse, that is difficult to believe.
#10, #11, #12 are all on 24.1gn powder with 3 different seating depths and none worked well.
#13 and #14 are at 23gn, with #13 sitting deeper at stock COL and #14 at .005 out. #13 speeds were 2544 in average, one slowest was 2490 and fastest 2606.
#15 was at 23.5gn same seating at 13. i can see one round there that went up clocked at 2699 when rest are about of 2590-2605.
in AA2495 - 21gn worked (#16), 22gn did not (#17)
#18 was 22.5gn - as good as #16, and #19 at 23gn did spread out again.
everything with aa2520 loads at and above 24gn did spread out abysmally.
only odd exception was a set 5 with 24.5gn and max mag allowed depth of 2.265 that clocked at 2750fps and did a 1.5MOA group - not great, but, not a 4" spread either.
hmm, and #9 is comparable but faster at 25.3gn and same max 2.265 COL.
it seems to contradict completely results for 23gn where best set was #13 sitting the deepest.
odd that 25gn, 24gn, 25.5gn results were all crap for aa2520.
Also after looking at this tube will order TAC as it is in stock now and 8208 xbr is not.
So far my test shows stable groups specifically at 2545 FPS, video shows best 8208 group at 2700 something.
All that is rather peculiar. AA2520 is not N140 but close enough burn rate wise and groups in video kinda match to what I got in my test.
also gonna get some 69gr SMK bullets, as i shot some factory ammo with them yesterday during test to confirm setup and it was grouping really well. may be that 73gr eld match is indeed not
worth the time in .223.
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yWTQ-QowrVk
So far my test shows stable groups specifically at 2545 FPS, video shows best 8208 group at 2700 something.
All that is rather peculiar. AA2520 is not N140 but close enough burn rate wise and groups in video kinda match to what I got in my test.
also gonna get some 69gr SMK bullets, as i shot some factory ammo with them yesterday during test to confirm setup and it was grouping really well. may be that 73gr eld match is indeed not
worth the time in .223.
View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yWTQ-QowrVk
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I think you might find tou need to push those eld a bit faster?
Also stick with one powder and do a good OCW powder . I would seat those eld at what ever hornady load data says for a starting point.
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they were seated at the suggested COL for starting point. yeah, it will take more finessing around, i will get it. #13 and #18 are slow, i will work that point, and will see if going faster will improve anything. so far it did not seem like any more amount of AA2520 was doing any good - i got to the 25.5gn amount while loading manual says 24.6gn as maximum - it probably had a reason behind it. there were no signs of excessive pressure at all for 25.5gn, and speed was in 2850 area - but the spread was horrible. like 5 inches horrible. pretty much nothing above 2750fps speed worked at all, at any seating depth from stock 2.250 to 2.265.
more i read about it - more i doubt pushing it beyond 2700 with slower powders will do any good, but, i will try, as it got my interest. i will try TAC powder on it as well, and if al will fail, heck, i will load up what i got and will plink it from tavor.
i ordered also a bunch of sierra 69gr matchking bullets, those supposedly should work better. it was just relatively inexpensive to get those 73gr elds at $23 per box of a 100, perhaps there was a reason for them to be at $23 while sierra and berger ones are at $31 and $40+ something.
to me this whole exercise is more of a training effort to learn the press and routine anyway, before i start messing with way more expensive 6.5CM components.
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what is your end result or use
I use 69 smks/Noslers for 200/300 service rifle and they will perform better than I can deliver I am not trying to find sub moa with the smks or Nosler customer comps but moa is easy to achieve.
Out of everything I load for 223 seems to be the easiest to get good groups with a large variety of bullets and powder. I run 77 grain Nosler Custom comps mostly now, mag length. I bought them in large quantities a few years ago.
Just try to keep your testing consistent.
same temps, same lighting, same time between shots,groups, what have you
I do a condensed OCW method
I will take the low end data and high end data split the difference between 5 or 6 groups or say .25 to .5 grain increments. usually will give me 5 to 6 charge weights from low to high.
I then shoot the groups round robin. 90% of my shooting is match shooting where the barrel is going to get hot and generally stay hot for 40-80 rounds so the round robin test does well for that.
I can usually see a decent range with in a 5-8 different charge weights then hone in on group size from there... but like I said for me anyway 223 likes to be pushed a bit fast.
I do have a 69 grain load using H4895 out of my AR that I Reduced to the point it functions my AR but would be considered "slow" as far as 223 goes.
Its all fun and time testing is something i dont have. IF I ever get a rifle worthy of sub moa as a standard I will have to make time I guess. Until then I will be very very happy with my 223 ARs that sneak down to under moa with me behind the switch
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End use case - I want a reliable load for 300yds range, target practice.
Speed and drop amount does not bother me as long as it will be grouped consistently.
I also want to understand- I kept all those loads uncrimped completely. Some people say that any round intended for gas rifles should be crimped- what is the consensus on that? Why would a precision bullet like eld need crimp?
AR LaRue stealth 20” 1:8 twist bench/prone, 5-25x scope. General prs-like shooting.
Barrel is capable of 1/3 or even 1/4 moa, I had on some match ammo groups of 5 in a dime size at 100yds.and trying now to replicate that.
I have no idea what targets are in volved in PRS or what you really need for accuracy
Lets say your shooting 300 yards high power or F class
You would be shooting at a 63c or 63FC target which has aprox 1.5” X ring
They differ in size a bit and i cant remember exactly.
Which is 1/2 MOA
Fclass 1000 yard X is 5”
PRS targets? 2 moa ish ?
I will add I only shot one faux PRS shoot with 22lr 100-200 yards we used 2” plates at 100 yards and 5” plates at 200.
Thats what the the host of the match had no idea if it was “legal”
We did a prone and barricade stage
NES member mountain has some very good loads for his AR platform
Maybe he can chime in?
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a consistent 1/2moa at 300yds would be great, which requires a decent stable bullet and a repeatable enough consistent grouping.
so far i had best success with 68gr bulets from that barrel, but, wanted to try out this 73gr ELD match as no one really supplies factory loads with it, and i kinda start getting a feel on why.
i still hope to get something that will work, as this same ELD bullet design works perfectly fine for 140gr 6.5CM match loads, it has a great BC, so, it kinda should work. i hope may be TAC powder will work with it better, as the best i could get so far with AA2520 was an 1MOA somewhat group of 10.
well, it depends how to look at it - the sample #18 from the test, if you reject 4 shots out of 10 was not that all bad. looking at it now again it seems it is more like 5 shots into same hole and 5 (if 2 on the left went into same hole) all around. but it is AA2495 powder, not AA2520.
Not much of a user of the AA line of powders
I have toggled over the years by whats in stock for 223 powder use
All have delivered when I can and my results are unlikely to improve from powder variations.
The vLDs have “long” ogive. Loaded to mag length the jump might be a little much in your chamber on the AR? What chamber do you actually have cut into that barrel.
My guess is a wylder variation of some type with a longer lead/throat ?
Since your looking for mag length capabilities you may want to try the 75-77 grain options of non VLD style bullets.
Its just my thinking but i dont feel the vld is really needed under 500 yards?
I toggle between , varget , H4895 , Benchmark < have not seen or used in years, RL15
What ever is in stock at a good price or what ever the small group I deal with agrees on buying in bulk.
So im hung up on the coach and bored
I think what you need to do if your limited by mag fed.
1. Flirt with just how long you
can load those bullets and still feed reliably
2. I have seen shooters cut a slot in the front of their mags to gain a few extra .00X
3. Find out what the absolute minimum COAL is for that bullet and powder. Then work between that and mag length capacity?
4. Find jam with that bullet/ barrel and work from there knowing tour going to have to single load.
5. Are you cleaning your barrel between different test lots.
6. Im sure I said this already test one powder/bullet combo at a time.
Clean your barrel between tests of different powder bullet combos .
If you have a bore scope check your lead/throat for carbon/copper build up.
This can skew testing.
Keep us posted
Heres a 3 shot group 308 125 gn tnt 15 gn trail boss aprox 1650fps Mauser 98k iron sights, I sit here wondering what it would do with a scope.
Yeah I know 3 shots but believe me with my eyes/skills and what I learned about loading for old war dogs 3 shots can show face quick enough.
I think what you need to do if your limited by mag fed.
1. Flirt with just how long you
can load those bullets and still feed reliably
2. I have seen shooters cut a slot in the front of their mags to gain a few extra .00X
3. Find out what the absolute minimum COAL is for that bullet and powder. Then work between that and mag length capacity?
4. Find jam with that bullet/ barrel and work from there knowing tour going to have to single load.
5. Are you cleaning your barrel between different test lots.
6. Im sure I said this already test one powder/bullet combo at a time.
Clean your barrel between tests of different powder bullet combos .
If you have a bore scope check your lead/throat for carbon/copper build up.
This can skew testing.
Keep us posted
Heres a 3 shot group 308 125 gn tnt 15 gn trail boss aprox 1650fps Mauser 98k iron sights, I sit here wondering what it would do with a scope.
Yeah I know 3 shots but believe me with my eyes/skills and what I learned about loading for old war dogs 3 shots can show face quick enough.
it may be correct.
which match it was i cannot even recall now, as it was just a handful of boxes i had a bit long ago and i noted of how great it went, but, i lost my notes of that session.
thx for all the tips, i will get back to it next week again.
I hope to load up more of them light 308s for the 1903a4 for 200 yard funit may be correct.
which match it was i cannot even recall now, as it was just a handful of boxes i had a bit long ago and i noted of how great it went, but, i lost my notes of that session.
thx for all the tips, i will get back to it next week again.
so, did one more test today, trying out aa2520, CFE223 and TAC on the same 73gn ELD bullet.
results were not good for CFE223 and worse than last time for the 23gn load of AA2520 -go figure why.
TAC worked ok in 23gn and 23.4gn loads - #11 and #12 shots, #12 clocked at 2710fps average.
none of groups were impressive today, and the CMP ammo did not do great neither - that 68gr clocked at 2857fps and i see my rifle seems to prefer 2750fps something.
a test #10 was weird - as it did 3 shots into same hole with 2 dropping lower.
seating depth was set same on all of them - 2.250".
#1 - 2527fps, AA2520 powder
#2 - 2503fps
#3 - 2809fps
#4 - 2492fps, CFE powder
#5 - 2657fps
#6 - 2730fps
#7 - 2802fps
#8 - 2856fps
#9 - 2900fps - worst spread, max load of CFE223
#10 - 2456fps, odd how 3 shots went way up, will retest. TAC powder
#11 - 2616fps
#12 - 2710fps, was supposed to be best based on video on 8208XBR, came out good, but, not that close.
#13 - 2785fps
#14 - 2798fps, group spreads out.
So, so far it seems this heavier bullet hates any slower powders and seems to be OK-ish with the TAC, but, still, it is not doing anything close to sub-MOA.
A test group i did with 68gr CMP match hornady also was far from stellar, but rifle was very stable and shots were fine, but speeds were high - 2857fps. the hole with circle on it was a first shot the rest were aimed at. Some groups were so bad i started thinking may be something happened with the rifle, but, #12 got it back, somewhat. go figure...
results were not good for CFE223 and worse than last time for the 23gn load of AA2520 -go figure why.
TAC worked ok in 23gn and 23.4gn loads - #11 and #12 shots, #12 clocked at 2710fps average.
none of groups were impressive today, and the CMP ammo did not do great neither - that 68gr clocked at 2857fps and i see my rifle seems to prefer 2750fps something.
a test #10 was weird - as it did 3 shots into same hole with 2 dropping lower.
seating depth was set same on all of them - 2.250".
#1 - 2527fps, AA2520 powder
#2 - 2503fps
#3 - 2809fps
#4 - 2492fps, CFE powder
#5 - 2657fps
#6 - 2730fps
#7 - 2802fps
#8 - 2856fps
#9 - 2900fps - worst spread, max load of CFE223
#10 - 2456fps, odd how 3 shots went way up, will retest. TAC powder
#11 - 2616fps
#12 - 2710fps, was supposed to be best based on video on 8208XBR, came out good, but, not that close.
#13 - 2785fps
#14 - 2798fps, group spreads out.
So, so far it seems this heavier bullet hates any slower powders and seems to be OK-ish with the TAC, but, still, it is not doing anything close to sub-MOA.
A test group i did with 68gr CMP match hornady also was far from stellar, but rifle was very stable and shots were fine, but speeds were high - 2857fps. the hole with circle on it was a first shot the rest were aimed at. Some groups were so bad i started thinking may be something happened with the rifle, but, #12 got it back, somewhat. go figure...
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Are you cleaning your bore between powder tests?
Have you put the rifle in the hands of a known good shooter of the AR?
Im lucky to have a few people I can hand them a rifle and ammo and just say
Proof this thing please.
I grew frustrated with the Crony testing.
I now dont have the time to put rounds over the crony
My best scores over the past few years at cmp games 200 yards are all from Hornady powder drop and cranking out on a hornady 007 press
My fun plinking round is 335 on the lee pro 1000 with 69gn nosler CC
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Yeah now that I think of it I don’t believe I’ve ever chronoed any of my rifle loads
Then again I’m only shooting out to 120 yards.
But shit my old Swiss K31 will shoot sub MOA even half MOA using Nosler 168 gr BTHPs loaded over IMR-4064 powder and PPU brass. Loaded with a $25 Lee perfect powder measure and a Hornady LNL press
The lee perfect powder measure is pretty consistent.Yeah now that I think of it I don’t believe I’ve ever chronoed any of my rifle loads
Then again I’m only shooting out to 120 yards.
But shit my old Swiss K31 will shoot sub MOA even half MOA using Nosler 168 gr BTHPs loaded over IMR-4064 powder and PPU brass. Loaded with a $25 Lee perfect powder measure and a Hornady LNL press
The K31 seems to shoot anything well if you can?
Do your self a favor dont Crony your K31 loads , that shit gets in your head!
Will we go back a few posts, more time shooting less time trying to load a magic load?
Its all good and when you find your sweet spot lets pray the bullets are still in stock
The lot of powder you get next has not deviated much from the last lot and they dont change the primer formula! Fun stuff
Magic or not - you can see in post #48 what happens. Test 1 in there is barely usable -AA2520. CFE223 not usable at all, which was odd. TAC was better.
I still wonder if it is all because of the ELD bullet type only, or the barrel as well?
I just received 69gn SMKs - will try to load a bunch for 2750 target FPS. Will see.
So, in the attached file below are results from today`s test - i did a set of AA2520 powder loads on 69gn SMK bullet in standard seating COL of 2.260".
The work i did on the barrel nut seemingly improved things quite a bit, i am reasonably happy. weird 6" spreads are gone, it is now back to my trigger control territory.
i am not going to sweat over it anymore, it is what it is at this point for this rifle. it can be seen groups 1, 5, 6, 7 are kinda ok-ish, with the 25.3gn being seemingly the sweet spot for the AA2520, with 2775-2800 speeds. group 1 load weight was probably off by .4gn, as i started loading there, something went off, as speed does not match indicated 24.8gn load and seems to be same with set #5. also odd how set 5 did 2 distinct subgroups there, but, whatever.
i have still 3 more pounds of that AA2520 and going to load it all up now.
The work i did on the barrel nut seemingly improved things quite a bit, i am reasonably happy. weird 6" spreads are gone, it is now back to my trigger control territory.
i am not going to sweat over it anymore, it is what it is at this point for this rifle. it can be seen groups 1, 5, 6, 7 are kinda ok-ish, with the 25.3gn being seemingly the sweet spot for the AA2520, with 2775-2800 speeds. group 1 load weight was probably off by .4gn, as i started loading there, something went off, as speed does not match indicated 24.8gn load and seems to be same with set #5. also odd how set 5 did 2 distinct subgroups there, but, whatever.
i have still 3 more pounds of that AA2520 and going to load it all up now.
Did you shoot those groups round robin style?
Its always interesting to see groups
Its funny to see some groups look the same
Ex 3,4,5 all have that low shot at 6oc
1,2 and your control groups have that curved grouping going on.
5,6,7. Seem more “clustered” or “round”
So looks like somewhere between 5,6,7 you will find a gem.
I dont even know what my load is for my 69 nosler custom comps 25 grains of surplus 846 and holds the 10 ring with irons slung up in prone when I deliver the trigger yank when the sight is where it should be.
Good job and keep shooting
thx. next test will be 10 packs done with same 69gr SMK bullet and 8208, CFE223 and TAC. may be with varget too, if i will get it from UPS in time.
the control group and most of others have horizontal stretch which is me fightin the trigger, i swapped it with the straight bow larue and cleaned the old one - it was dirty as hell.
group #5 was nice powder load wise - it actually had 12 shots in there, not 10, as i somehow mixed up into it something that did not belong - so it had actually 7 hits there in the upper left. not a bad group and sets now what i need to know for AA2520 for that rifle.
| Index | Velocity |
1 | 2806 |
2 | 2807 |
3 | 2817 |
4 | 2784 |
5 | 2803 |
6 | 2799 |
7 | 2755 |
8 | 2760 |
9 | 2815 |
10 | 2799 |
11 | 2803 |
12 | 2815 |
it still exhibits same excessive trigger pull, i am sure, when shots move to the side. takes some mental control to stop it.
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just to post a final message to close this thread - this was a 300yds shoot today, the group on top left is pretty good for 300yds - but probably was a fluke, to get 5 shots in a same hole like that, but, it happened. it was with precision rifle powder, 25.1gn. left low and right side spreads were with 25.3gn same powder.
it deviated from my normal 10rd shots routine a bit, unfortunately, as i was distracted and did not load up magazine properly.
on 100yds best ES/SD was 25/7 - usual one is closer to 40/12 - that is with no double-checking metring, just dropping and setting bullets on sets of 10 rounds in a row. i will stamp more of 25.1gn loads now to re-check.
and here is how same 25.1gn loads grouped at 100yds from my tacticool second larue - 16" pencil barrel one. also not too bad.
it deviated from my normal 10rd shots routine a bit, unfortunately, as i was distracted and did not load up magazine properly.
on 100yds best ES/SD was 25/7 - usual one is closer to 40/12 - that is with no double-checking metring, just dropping and setting bullets on sets of 10 rounds in a row. i will stamp more of 25.1gn loads now to re-check.
and here is how same 25.1gn loads grouped at 100yds from my tacticool second larue - 16" pencil barrel one. also not too bad.
