Firefighter shot by cop.

[headednorth]

Cops lucky this wasnt in Florida. He'd be looking at a murder charge and we'd be subjected to having to look at a photo of the firefighter as a 10 year old for the next year or so.

 

[GPP]

Sadly, attempting to help usually makes matters worse. There is no way I'm getting involved with a cop and potential drunk at that point. No way.

I'm a bit confused as to what is going on. At first, it seems like the cop is okay, and just trying to cuff the guy. Then when that doesn't quite work, he changes tactics and gets into a wrestling/grappling match voluntarily. Why? As it turned out, the other guy was a better grappler than him, and he was now in a position without any other options than deadly force. Is ones ego and extreme desire for absolute immediate control worth risking your and his life for?

Attempting to help usually makes matters worse? I dont think he voluntarily got into a wrestling match, and I dont think the cops ego and extreme desire for immediate control got in the way here either. The guy had beat up a cab driver, the cop didnt single this guy out for no reason. The cop looked like he was doing his best not to get into it with the guy any more than he already had. He was also by himself. So he asks for help, gets none, and the end result is the dead groom/fireman. Maybe if the whiny prick holding the camera sacked up and helped, things may have been different. Id love to see how you would have handled the same situation.

 

[headednorth]

Judging solely by the audio, it doesnt sound like the bystanders would of been too much help even if they did decide to jump in.

 

[Bonesinium]

Attempting to help usually makes matters worse? I dont think he voluntarily got into a wrestling match, and I dont think the cops ego and extreme desire for immediate control got in the way here either.

Yes.
He did.
It was.

The guy had beat up a cab driver, the cop didnt single this guy out for no reason. The cop looked like he was doing his best not to get into it with the guy any more than he already had. He was also by himself.

Correct. He was by himself. He did appear to have good reason to arrest him, and he was doing a good job...at first. That he was by himself was exactly why he shouldn't have escalated it into a wrestling match by going at the guys neck. That is when the guy started fighting back actively.

So he asks for help, gets none, and the end result is the dead groom/fireman. Maybe if the whiny prick holding the camera sacked up and helped, things may have been different. Id love to see how you would have handled the same situation.

Until police are once again seen as people there to help, and not hurt, people won't help them. And for good reason. I'd have filmed instead of get involved. Next thing you know other cops show up and I'm the one being attacked. Or maybe the cop I'm helping ends up shooting me in the process of shooting the other guy. I'm not an idiot. And I'm certainly not helping a cop who put himself in a bad position at the expense of my life.

I wouldn't ever be in that situation. I'm not a cop. And I prefer to avoid confrontation, not add too it.

 

[GPP]

Yes.
He did.
It was.



Correct. He was by himself. He did appear to have good reason to arrest him, and he was doing a good job...at first. That he was by himself was exactly why he shouldn't have escalated it into a wrestling match by going at the guys neck. That is when the guy started fighting back actively.



Until police are once again seen as people there to help, and not hurt, people won't help them. And for good reason. I'd have filmed instead of get involved. Next thing you know other cops show up and I'm the one being attacked. Or maybe the cop I'm helping ends up shooting me in the process of shooting the other guy. I'm not an idiot. And I'm certainly not helping a cop who put himself in a bad position at the expense of my life.

I wouldn't ever be in that situation. I'm not a cop. And I prefer to avoid confrontation, not add too it.

Well we all justify what we do and dont do I guess. I didnt say you were an idiot. Hopefully you wont ever end up in a spot like that.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Pretty sure that shooting that guy was warranted.

Yes

 

[MAGG]

its easy to sit back and arm chair QB this....if I was there I wouldnt be filming, and probably would have jumped in to help the cop...atleast I would have liked to think I would have if he screamed for help. but its easy to say that from my couch.

so the damage to the cops face came right at the end for a few punches before he shot the perp? or was he punched previous to the recording

he was in danger and in my opinion justified to shoot

 

[weekendracer]

I see the firefighter (FF) pull his had free right before the cop drops the knee on him. If he had his cuffs in his hand (looks like he's trying to cuff), he lost control of the FF's hand and upped the force. If he had his cuffs in his hand, he was fighting with only one hand to try and hold the guy down. FF turned the tables and started to pound him.

I know of a couple things that I would like to think I would have done before engaging like that, simple wrist drag to get him back on his stomach with an arm bar as a side bonus to assist in cuffing. I wonder how many departments even train yearly for this type of situation. We try to train quarterly in CQC, but it does not always happen. It's not as good as weekly (daily in a perfect world) dojo visits, but it keeps some cobwebs off. Taser, nuf said.

 

[bigblue]

Sadly, attempting to help usually makes matters worse. There is no way I'm getting involved with a cop and potential drunk at that point. No way.

I'm a bit confused as to what is going on. At first, it seems like the cop is okay, and just trying to cuff the guy. Then when that doesn't quite work, he changes tactics and gets into a wrestling/grappling match voluntarily. Why? As it turned out, the other guy was a better grappler than him, and he was now in a position without any other options than deadly force. Is ones ego and extreme desire for absolute immediate control worth risking your and his life for?

This.

Training training training. Specifically train how to de-escalate the situation. Getting into a 1-on-1 wrestling match with a big un is a recipe for disaster.

KC Cop put himself into a position where he was forced to use his weapon. Can't wait to read about this guy's next "good shoot".

Civil suit to follow.

 

[GPP]

This.

Training training training. Specifically train how to de-escalate the situation. Getting into a 1-on-1 wrestling match with a big un is a recipe for disaster.

KC Cop put himself into a position where he was forced to use his weapon. Can't wait to read about this guy's next "good shoot".

Civil suit to follow.

So the KC cop put himself in that position? Training training training is all fine and well, but if you're overpowered, well, you're overpowered. The guy asked for help, which tells me he knew he was outmatched. Maybe, if the guy filming had a set, things may have ended up differently. But, he didn't, he chose to scream like a small child and continue filming. Are you suggesting he purposely put himself in a spot where he knew he could draw his gun, fire, and be justified in shooting/killing the firefighter? At the point of the video, it appears to me that de escalation wasn't an option. Maybe one day we will all read about your "good shoot", and we can bounce your scenario around too.

 

[Bonesinium]

So are you trained to engage in wrestling matches when you know you are overpowered?

Honest question.

I still don't know why you keep going on about the guy filming. Are YOU suggesting that we need to help you do your job when you are incapable? As far as I know, up to that point, nobody had yet been killed. Maybe your suggestion has merit, and other people besides the police should handle situations. Or is that not what you meant? Either way, I'll go with that. Thank you for explaining your inability to handle situations without outside intervention or death.

 

[GPP]

So are you trained to engage in wrestling matches when you know you are overpowered?

Honest question.

I still don't know why you keep going on about the guy filming. Are YOU suggesting that we need to help you do your job when you are incapable? As far as I know, up to that point, nobody had yet been killed. Maybe your suggestion has merit, and other people besides the police should handle situations. Or is that not what you meant? Either way, I'll go with that. Thank you for explaining your inability to handle situations without outside intervention or death.

I'm pretty sure it's the first time I mentioned the guy filming. I am trained to do my job. If my job involves engaging a fire fighter that is bigger than me, and has superior grappling skills than me, then so be it. If I ask for help and don't get it, I'm ok with that too. And when I'm second guessed after a situation like that, you know what? I'm ok with that . I'm not sure what you do for a living, hopefully it doesn't involve crap like this, because then you might be faced with an actual decision, where the outcome doesn't involve putting a smiley face rolling on the ground laughing.
Correction, I did mention the whiny prick filming in an earlier post, sorry.

 

[Bonesinium]

I'm pretty sure it's the first time I mentioned the guy filming.

I'm pretty sure your wrong.

Maybe if the whiny prick holding the camera sacked up and helped, things may have been different.

Yep! You are!

I am trained to do my job. If my job involves engaging a fire fighter that is bigger than me, and has superior grappling skills than me, then so be it. If I ask for help and don't get it, I'm ok with that too. And when I'm second guessed after a situation like that, you know what? I'm ok with that . I'm not sure what you do for a living, hopefully it doesn't involve crap like this, because then you might be faced with an actual decision, where the outcome doesn't involve putting a smiley face rolling on the ground laughing.

Glad your okay with those things, though considering your posts, I'm not sure I believe them all.

 

[crazymjb]

In other news, everyone on NES hates cops...

I'd probably help out if a cop was screaming for help because most of them are good guys, and I have plenty of friends who are cops and are good guys as well.

I think watching a uniformed officer scream for help and doing nothing at all makes you a piece of crap. I truly believe that. Sure its your right to not get involved... and likewise its your right to be a scumbag.

I love how you (bones) think that cops are supposed to be capable of handling everything that happens ever. News flash, they aren't super heros.

It was a good shoot because some ******* assaulted an innocent man, and then went on to assault the officer that was intervening. Even then, it didnt have to end up how it did, but some clown decided it would be more fun to film than help or call for help. As a result the fight continued to escalate to the point where the cop used lethal force in defense of his life... thats a good shoot.

Next time a cop screams for help because they are overpowered, and people want to film it instead, and that cop is having his head bashed against the cement, it will also be a good shoot. In part because of idiot bystanders.

Mike

Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...

 

[GPP]

I corrected myself as to not mentioning the guy filming prior to that post.
I don't care if you believe a single word I say.
I don't offer any sort of defense for the LEOs that abuse their power and beat people that don't deserve it, they are a ****ing detriment to the job, and I police it when I can.
I do try and add some insight on here as to Why LE does some of the things they do.
I also have no problem letting you all know what I do for a living, and where I stand on theses issues.
Armchair quarterbacking has its place for sure, and I enjoy the debates, it keeps all of us sharp.
What do you do for a living?

 

[Bonesinium]

I love how you (bones) think that cops are supposed to be capable of handling everything that happens ever. News flash, they aren't super heros.

You are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that. In fact I suggested not getting involved in a physical confrontation when you don't think you are capable of handling it. You know, wait for backup, maybe, and certainly not ESCALATE the situation. That seems like a terrible idea if you value your own health.

It was a good shoot because some ******* assaulted an innocent man, and then went on to assault the officer that was intervening. Even then, it didnt have to end up how it did, but some clown decided it would be more fun to film than help or call for help. As a result the fight continued to escalate to the point where the cop used lethal force in defense of his life... thats a good shoot.

Again, not sure why people continue to blame....the camera guy. Really? Let's blame the person who had no involvement in the incident, and not the violent individual who apparently attacked two people? What type of logic is that? I blame the guy who decided to attack a cabby, and then a cop. That seems like a good person to blame, but I suppose it is easier to blame the person documenting what happened. Makes it harder to fudge a police report maybe.

Next time a cop screams for help because they are overpowered, and people want to film it instead, and that cop is having his head bashed against the cement, it will also be a good shoot. In part because of idiot bystanders.

By the time he was actually overpowered was the time he shot. There wasn't any time for help. Maybe you should watch it again. For most of the time, he was on top, and the guy was on the ground not doing anything. It wasn't until he went at the guys head did the guy fight back. From the time the cop actually got overpowered till he shot was 7 seconds. Yes, it surely was the guy filming fault.

Maybe you missed it also, but I said that once the cop was in that position, he had little choice left but to shoot.

But I digress. Go on blaming the people who weren't involved and couldn't have helped anyways.


I'm also not sure he ever asked for help. Sounds like he may have said "Does it look like I have help here?" I'm not sure. But he certainly wasn't screaming for help.

What do you do for a living?

Not sure it's relevant. I'm sure I've mentioned it before. Why?

 

[GPP]

You are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that. In fact I suggested not getting involved in a physical confrontation when you don't think you are capable of handling it. You know, wait for backup, maybe, and certainly not ESCALATE the situation. That seems like a terrible idea if you value your own health.



Again, not sure why people continue to blame....the camera guy. Really? Let's blame the person who had no involvement in the incident, and not the violent individual who apparently attacked two people? What type of logic is that? I blame the guy who decided to attack a cabby, and then a cop. That seems like a good person to blame, but I suppose it is easier to blame the person documenting what happened. Makes it harder to fudge a police report maybe.



By the time he was actually overpowered was the time he shot. There wasn't any time for help. Maybe you should watch it again. For most of the time, he was on top, and the guy was on the ground not doing anything. It wasn't until he went at the guys head did the guy fight back. From the time the cop actually got overpowered till he shot was 7 seconds. Yes, it surely was the guy filming fault.

Maybe you missed it also, but I said that once the cop was in that position, he had little choice left but to shoot.

But I digress. Go on blaming the people who weren't involved and couldn't have helped anyways.


I'm also not sure he ever asked for help. Sounds like he may have said "Does it look like I have help here?" I'm not sure. But he certainly wasn't screaming for help.



Not sure it's relevant. I'm sure I've mentioned it before. Why?

It's absolutely not relevant, I'm just curious. If you've mentioned it before, I must have missed it.
I don't think anyone is blaming the camera guy, it is clearly the fault of the guy that started the whole thing. But, the bystanders could have helped. They chose not to. It's not their fault, absolutely. Have you ever been at work, or your job, whatever you do, and needed some help? If that's the case, did someone help you without question? Just step in and say sure friendo, what do you need?

 

[Bolio]

Armchair quarterbacking has its place for sure, and I enjoy the debates, it keeps all of us sharp.

NES has quite a few who truly believes they would have done a better job or done things differently in certain situations. Whether it's Cop related or confronting people who are trespassing on their neighbors property, etc etc.

It's always easier AFTER the fact.

 

[Bonesinium]

It's absolutely not relevant, I'm just curious. If you've mentioned it before, I must have missed it.
I don't think anyone is blaming the camera guy, it is clearly the fault of the guy that started the whole thing. But, the bystanders could have helped. They chose not to. It's not their fault, absolutely. Have you ever been at work, or your job, whatever you do, and needed some help? If that's the case, did someone help you without question? Just step in and say sure friendo, what do you need?

I'll try and make my position absolutely clear. I'd like you to watch the video again, and really tell me if you think there even was an opportunity for anyone to help.

For the first 28 seconds of the video the officer has things mostly under control. At around 28 seconds, he actually is able to take both hands off the guy and look away for a second to put something in his pocket. At that time the person filming actually makes what turns out to be an accurate comment. He says "that's a very aggressive stance". Aggression would be right. For the next 15 seconds or so, he again, still has things mostly under control. He is on top. The guy isn't doing anything threatening. It does indeed appear he is not able to cuff him, however at the moment, the guy still isn't doing much. At 51 seconds the cop appears to knee him in the head. At this time the guy starts to defend himself by getting to his knees and holding on to the cop. The both go to the ground. Now he begins to fight back, gains the upper hand, and starts socking him in the face. At this point the cop shoots.

There was no time for intervention. There was no need for intervention by a bystander until 61 seconds into the video. The shots came at 71 seconds.

Had they tried to help, they would have likely got there at around the time he shot, putting their own lives at risk.

When could they have helped?

Why couldn't the cop retained the position he was in for the first 30 seconds, when no struggling was going on?

I'm not second guessing him shooting. I am suggesting that had he not escalated the situation at around 51 seconds, he not only wouldn't have needed the bystanders help, but he wouldn't have needed to shoot.

What is wrong with me suggesting that? What makes suggesting the bystanders should have helped any different?

 

[GPP]

I'll try and make my position absolutely clear. I'd like you to watch the video again, and really tell me if you think there even was an opportunity for anyone to help.

For the first 28 seconds of the video the officer has things mostly under control. At around 28 seconds, he actually is able to take both hands off the guy and look away for a second to put something in his pocket. At that time the person filming actually makes what turns out to be an accurate comment. He says "that's a very aggressive stance". Aggression would be right. For the next 15 seconds or so, he again, still has things mostly under control. He is on top. The guy isn't doing anything threatening. It does indeed appear he is not able to cuff him, however at the moment, the guy still isn't doing much. At 51 seconds the cop appears to knee him in the head. At this time the guy starts to defend himself by getting to his knees and holding on to the cop. The both go to the ground. Now he begins to fight back, gains the upper hand, and starts socking him in the face. At this point the cop shoots.

There was no time for intervention. There was no need for intervention by a bystander until 61 seconds into the video. The shots came at 71 seconds.

Had they tried to help, they would have likely got there at around the time he shot, putting their own lives at risk.

When could they have helped?

Why couldn't the cop retained the position he was in for the first 30 seconds, when no struggling was going on?

I'm not second guessing him shooting. I am suggesting that had he not escalated the situation at around 51 seconds, he not only wouldn't have needed the bystanders help, but he wouldn't have needed to shoot.

What is wrong with me suggesting that? What makes suggesting the bystanders should have helped any different?

I agree, the knee to the head is absolutely suspect. I asked myself why did he do that several times. The officer showed pretty good restraint( whether it was because he was being filmed, was afraid of getting his ass kicked, or because he was actually doing a good job is certainly up for debate) right up until the knee. I don't know why he did it, but it seems he had done the right thing up till then, so the knee is certainly an interesting detail, I'd like to hear why he did it. He says something to the effect of does it look like I could use some help here after the knee and the grappling starts, it makes me wonder what transpired before the video was rolling.

There is nothing wrong with you suggesting that the bystanders wouldn't have made a difference, but I've been in situations like that in my career, and some citizens helped, and some didn't. I've gotten my face kicked in by a career felon because bystanders didnt want to get involved. I don't hold it against them, but it certainly makes me hate people that much more. But, unfortunately, there is no answer. The more times LE issues beatings that they shouldn't, the less people are inclined to help LE out when they need it. And the distance between LE and the citizens will continue to grow. It's sad. The " more Mayberry less Fallujah" concept is getting further and further away.
I noticed you didn't mention what you do for a living still.

 

[Artifact]

He deserved it, and who cares if he was a firefighter or recently married. What happens if you do offer help, things still get out of hand and the alcohol possessed firefighter still gets shot????? You as a civilian could possibly legally screw yourself. Where I grew-up people helped each other, people truly risked their lives to save others. Here in U.S. you get sued monkey style.

Here it is for those that hate clicking links.

 

[Bonesinium]

I agree, the knee to the head is absolutely suspect. I asked myself why did he do that several times. The officer showed pretty good restraint( whether it was because he was being filmed, was afraid of getting his ass kicked, or because he was actually doing a good job is certainly up for debate) right up until the knee. I don't know why he did it, but it seems he had done the right thing up till then, so the knee is certainly an interesting detail, I'd like to hear why he did it. But, he asked for help before he threw the knee, which makes me wonder about what had transpired before the video was rolling.

See, I agree with everything you said. Well except the only time I could make out him possibly asking for help came AFTER the knee. It wasn't before. If he did before as well, I couldn't hear it.

There is nothing wrong with you suggesting that the bystanders wouldn't have made a difference, but I've been in situations like that in my career, and some citizens helped, and some didn't. I've gotten my face kicked in by a career felon because bystanders didnt want to get involved. I don't hold it against them, but it certainly makes me hate people that much more.

If you look at the number of incidents posted on this forum alone, I would hope you can understand why people wouldn't help cops out in anything but extraordinary circumstances. Heck, there have been threads were people DID try and help cops out and ended up in jail. Or you end up sued. That happens too much. You also hear police telling you NOT to help. I mean, police don't want you helping yourself, why would you expect they now want you to help them? It doesn't work that way. Honestly, I'd be inclined to help if I thought me helping wouldn't have an adverse effect. But sadly, I'd be surprised if it didn't.

But, unfortunately, there is no answer. The more times LE issues beatings that they shouldn't, the less people are inclined to help LE out when they need it. And the distance between LE and the citizens will continue to grow. It's sad. The " more Mayberry less Fallujah" concept is getting further and further away.
I noticed you didn't mention what you do for a living still.

It is sad, and you are right. See, look, it turns out, we agree on most things really. Just different perspectives.

And I didn't say because it isn't relevant.

 

[atilla]

And I didn't say because it isn't relevant.

it very well could be in a sense of comparing incidents at work to this situation, or a hypothetical one. for master debating purposes, etc.

i'll admit i ride a desk all day for work. when i get up it's to piss or to get coffee. i'll monday morning QB with the best of 'em, but when someone comes along who has been there, and has done that? i'll tend to listen to what they have to say if only to expand my own personal level of knowledge on the subject.

 

[bigblue]

So the KC cop put himself in that position? Training training training is all fine and well, but if you're overpowered, well, you're overpowered. The guy asked for help, which tells me he knew he was outmatched. Maybe, if the guy filming had a set, things may have ended up differently. But, he didn't, he chose to scream like a small child and continue filming. Are you suggesting he purposely put himself in a spot where he knew he could draw his gun, fire, and be justified in shooting/killing the firefighter? At the point of the video, it appears to me that de escalation wasn't an option. Maybe one day we will all read about your "good shoot", and we can bounce your scenario around too.

THIS cop's lack of training and experience put him in the position where it became necessary to use his weapon in self defense.

Sorry if I wasn't clear earlier.

Is it probable that he let his frustration get the better of him to knee the guy to the head? Yep.

Is that what likely escalated the situation to where the officer's eye socket was likely fractured? Yep.

Could this have ended in handcuffs, a night in the tank, and some community service for the firefighter? I think so.

IF the proper training to deal with this type of situation were repeated and this cop had the ability to DE-ESCALATE situations. Subdue without causing harm: This isn't the Ultimate Fighter and making the other guy "pay" because he took a swipe at you doesn't diffuse the situation. Stick with the arm bar because it works: Let him tear his rotator cuff to shreds.


I don't blame the officer; I blame his department for their crappy training program.

 

[crazymjb]

Again youre assuming too much. Of the drunk beat up a cabbie its likely he was looking to fight. EOF doesnt work with everyone... some people just want to fight.

Obviously Im not placing all blame upon the bystanders... however, they may have been a contributing factor. As to when they could have stepped in, if you see a cop alone with one other dude, it may not be a bad idea to go hangout with him until either backup arrives or you see he has things under control.

As far as all the incidents posted on NES.... its a skewed look by people on a witch hunt. How many cops are in the US, and what, a couple dozen incidents at most are posted annually?

Mike

Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...

 

[GPP]

THIS cop's lack of training and experience put him in the position where it became necessary to use his weapon in self defense.

Sorry if I wasn't clear earlier.

Is it probable that he let his frustration get the better of him to knee the guy to the head? Yep.

Is that what likely escalated the situation to where the officer's eye socket was likely fractured? Yep.

Could this have ended in handcuffs, a night in the tank, and some community service for the firefighter? I think so.

IF the proper training to deal with this type of situation were repeated and this cop had the ability to DE-ESCALATE situations. Subdue without causing harm: This isn't the Ultimate Fighter and making the other guy "pay" because he took a swipe at you doesn't diffuse the situation. Stick with the arm bar because it works: Let him tear his rotator cuff to shreds.


I don't blame the officer; I blame his department for their crappy training program.

I think the option to de escalate this situation had already gone south at the time of the video. My guess is that you've never actually attempted to put an arm bar on a non compliant subject before, sorry, but they don't work when someone fights back. I will join you in blaming his department tho, not for the crappy training, but because this guy didn't have a less than lethal option to go to ( OC spray or taser).

 

[bigblue]

I think the option to de escalate this situation had already gone south at the time of the video. My guess is that you've never actually attempted to put an arm bar on a non compliant subject before, sorry, but they don't work when someone fights back. I will join you in blaming his department tho, not for the crappy training, but because this guy didn't have a less than lethal option to go to ( OC spray or taser).

You think using a taser at point blank range while grappling is a viable option? Really?

At 23 seconds the arm bar should have been sudden, immobilizing, and attached to the cuff.
Between 23 and 54 seconds is where the problem is: He does not know how to handle the situation.
By 54 seconds it is clear the only thing this guy knows how to do is grade school wrestling.
Everything after that is pure survival instinct.

When in that sequence would the taser have been used? Stun gun maybe but I'm guessing the energy would dissipate through both of them while grappling.

BUT. I do agree that he should have had a non-lethal alternative at hand; I just don't think a taser would have solved anything in this instance. This LE clearly did not train for this eventuality and did not know how to handle the situation. I'm also not saying that this is an EASY situation to de-escalate and "handle". On the contrary: It is extremely difficult. That is why the training is so beneficial.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

Not a good idea to start taking head shots at a cop.

this

 

[atilla]

You think using a taser at point blank range while grappling is a viable option? Really?

The front of the X26C contains two metal electrodes. These
electrodes direct the charge to the electrodes on the cartridge
to initiate deployment of the probes. In addition, the electrodes
provide the ability to use the X26C in a “drive-stun” mode as a
traditional stun gun-type device.

seems a perfectly viable option. non-lethal, and capable of being used without popping the cartridge.

 

[bigblue]

How does it insulate the LE from its effect when grappling though? Or are you advocating that every arrest be preceded by a stun gun?