Fitchburg shooting -- claiming self defense

jcr

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[I didn't think I'd be first to post this (I looked, if not, sorry) ]

TV reports say there is a claim of self-defense.

[Full Text]-->
Two teenagers killed in Fitchburg parking fight
By Associated Press, September 7, 2009

FITCHBURG — Authorities say two Massachusetts teenagers have been killed in a fight stemming from a dispute over parking outside a party, and three people have been arrested.

The Worcester district attorney says 18-year-old Nelson Geraldino was stabbed multiple times and 17-year-old Pedro Genoa was shot in the abdomen and suffered other injuries in the melee early Sunday morning in Fitchburg.

District Attorney Joseph Early Jr. says Genoa’s 18-year-old brother, Ronny Genoa, was hospitalized with multiple gunshot wounds.

Two brothers who were injured, 22-year-old Orville Carrion and 27-year-old Jose Carrion, have been charged with murder and are being held without bail. Ronny Genoa has been charged with assault with intent to murder and mayhem.

It’s unclear whether any of the defendants have attorneys
<--
http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1195935
 
I saw this on tv last night. The neighbor said the homeowner just got off work, has an LTC and the teens came at him with machettes!!!

Aren't machettes outlawed in Fitchburg??
 
I wish I could formulate an opinion on this. There's just not enough in the article to comment. Can't say if this was justified or not.
 
Source: Telegram.com - A product of the Worcester Telegram & Gazette

Monday, September 7, 2009


Dispute leaves 2 teens dead in Fitchburg
2 brothers face murder charges


By Priyanka Dayal and Scott J. Croteau TELEGRAM & GAZETTE STAFF
[email protected]

FITCHBURG — A fight that police say began as a disagreement over parking outside a Mechanic Street party left two teenagers dead yesterday.

Two men were arrested and charged with murder, and one of the victim's brothers also faces charges.

Nelson Geraldino, 18, of 15 Crestview Lane, and Pedro Genoa, 17, of 137 Meadowbrook Lane, were killed when a party at 96 Mechanic St. erupted into violence shortly after 4:30 a.m., according to a statement from Worcester District Attorney Joseph D. Early Jr.

Mr. Geraldino suffered multiple stab wounds and was pronounced dead at UMass Memorial — HealthAlliance Leominster Campus. Mr. Genoa was flown by helicopter to UMass Memorial Medical Center — University Campus in Worcester and died at the hospital. He had several wounds, including a gunshot wound to the abdomen.

Several others were injured in the fight, the district attorney's office said last night.

Brothers Orville Carrion, 22, and Jose Carrion, 27, of 96 Mechanic St., Apt. 3, are being charged with murder. The Carrion brothers were treated for injuries at the Leominster hospital and released. They were booked at the Fitchburg police station and are being held without bail until their arraignment tomorrow in Fitchburg District Court.

Ronny Genoa, 18, of 137 Meadowbrook Lane, is being charged with assault with intent to murder and mayhem. He was admitted to UMass Memorial Medical Center with multiple gunshot wounds and is being held without bail.

Fitchburg police arrived at 96 Mechanic St. at 4:43 a.m., where they found three victims on the ground with serious injuries and a fourth with serious head and arm wounds.

Much of Mechanic Street remained blocked off last evening, and Fitchburg and state police were still collecting evidence and conducting interviews.

Some residents in the thickly settled neighborhood slept through the night, but Joseph H. Beatham couldn't rest after he heard the gunshots. The south windows of his house are a few feet from where the clash took place, and he watched as the violence quickly unfolded.

Mr. Beatham said he saw a group of about 20 young people outside. He heard yelling and saw someone being dragged. He saw muzzles flash and a young man across the street get shot in the buttocks. Another young man was shot on the sidewalk just inches from Mr. Beatham's garden, he said. Blood stained the sidewalk.

“Someone was shot and killed on our front yard,” he said. “Never thought that would happen.”

The pale yellow multistory apartment building at 96 Mechanic St. is owned by a man in his mid-20s who usually is attentive to the property, Mr. Beatham said.

Mr. Beatham left home for several hours yesterday and drank a margarita in the afternoon to help calm his nerves. He was still shaken in the evening.

He and other longtime neighbors said Mechanic Street has been a quiet, safe place to live. But since the city extinguished streetlights on Mechanic Street and many other residential streets in March, neighbors say they have noticed an uptick in crime. Thieves broke into Mr. Beatham's home and stole a plasma TV, expensive jewelry and a Sony PlayStation, he said.

“When you have an unsafe town, why the hell would you turn the lights off?” he said. “We need safety first.”


© 2009 Worcester Telegram & Gazette Corp.
 
I heard the aftermath on the scanner as I was waking up. Just a cop calling in the plates of about 10 vehicles at "the scene". I knew something went down, but let's face it -- shootings in Fitchburg are so ho-hum now.
 
... and 2 guys surrounded by 20 teens, at least some of them displaying knives? If there was any threat there, might not self-defense be applicable?
 
I heard the aftermath on the scanner as I was waking up. Just a cop calling in the plates of about 10 vehicles at "the scene". I knew something went down, but let's face it -- shootings in Fitchburg are so ho-hum now.

My daughter went to FSC for one year. When I told her about this shooting yesterday she feigned shock and said, "Really Dad, a shooting in Fitchburg. Never saw that one coming." That's my snarky girl. [smile]

On a serious note, I was out with a friend of mine today. He's more liberal than I am, but most people are. He told me that he was afraid of sounding racist but wondered why just about every time something like this happens the names of the victims and perpetrators "don't sound particularly American". I really wasn't sure how to answer him other than some other cultures rely on violence to settle disputes. Maybe that's because in their native cultures, they can't rely on the police or courts to protect them. I know that there are problems with both in this country, but they sure do seem to beat whatever is in second place.

It's time for real immigration reform, not that phony crap that Dead Ted foisted on us over the years. If we tossed out the illegal and legal immigrant criminals we'd all be better off.
 
There is an update on the Telegrams page that includes the mention of the LTC holder.

The police chief, in response to reporters’ questions, said he did not believe there was a culture of violence in the city because of the number of homicides. Chief DeMoura said there were no common factors linking the crimes.

All those homicides must be a total coincidence.
 
Printer Friendly Versions of all the articles I could find.
Telegram Article
Globe Article
Herald Article

This Sentinel article is a joke.

From what I am reading inthe different articles I don't think a self defense argument is going to fly.
Boston.com said:
One nearby resident, Jennifer Gilchrist, said she was awakened by screaming around 4:45 a.m. “All of a sudden I hear these kids screaming, ‘Don’t shoot me; don’t shoot me,’ and then I heard the gunfire,’’ Gilchrist said.

David Smith, 26, who lives on the second floor of the house where the party took place, said he, too, was awakened by gunfire and looked out a window to see a man chasing people and shooting.[/B].
If that was the LTC holder that's not gonna say self defense to a jury.

And the party couldn't be too wild if Mr Smith was sleeping on the floor above.
 
Printer Friendly Versions of all the articles I could find.
Telegram Article
Globe Article
Herald Article

This Sentinel article is a joke.

From what I am reading inthe different articles I don't think a self defense argument is going to fly.

If that was the LTC holder that's not gonna say self defense to a jury.

And the party couldn't be too wild if Mr Smith was sleeping on the floor above.

You are seeing a lot more than I have found. Based on that, I agree that SD is a less compelling argument, but there are lots of unknowns here still. Another nail in the brothers grim coffin is the fact that one or more of the "victim" group was stabbed. That means either a knife/machete changed hands or one of the two brothers had a knife.

That's why this seems like an interesting case. I think we are about to find out the bounds of "self defense" when the party "defending" possibly escalated it through brandishing some weapon or through some other action.
 
You are seeing a lot more than I have found. Based on that, I agree that SD is a less compelling argument, but there are lots of unknowns here still. Another nail in the brothers grim coffin is the fact that one or more of the "victim" group was stabbed. That means either a knife/machete changed hands or one of the two brothers had a knife.

That's why this seems like an interesting case. I think we are about to find out the bounds of "self defense" when the party "defending" possibly escalated it through brandishing some weapon or through some other action.

I read about there being at least 1 gun, 1 knife and 1 machete being involved, but nothing said specifically how many of each. So it will be interesting to see who had what, how many and how they were used. But having a witness see you chase people while shooting at them is going to play out badly in court. Someone begging not to be shot doesn't exactly sound like someone in an offensive behavior mode.
 
I read about there being at least 1 gun, 1 knife and 1 machete being involved, but nothing said specifically how many of each. So it will be interesting to see who had what, how many and how they were used. But having a witness see you chase people while shooting at them is going to play out badly in court. Someone begging not to be shot doesn't exactly sound like someone in an offensive behavior mode.

I agree that is bad. But eyewitness testimony is bad news. If the cops do a bad job of isolating the witnesses and allow them to find out stuff about the events, or tell them about what happened before taking their statements, you would be amazed how the story changes.

I just read a story about a guy who was put to death in TX for arson and murder for killing his 3 kids. His neighbors were sympathetic until the arson investigators claimed it was arson. All of a sudden they were "remembering" things and changing their tunes. Turns out the investigators blew the investigation and he was probably innocent. Too late though as he was already dead.
 
I wonder if Derek could check to see if this guy was a member. Not that it would make any difference but usually people who are on here are the more upstanding citizens.
 
I wonder if Derek could check to see if this guy was a member. Not that it would make any difference but usually people who are on here are the more upstanding citizens.

I doubt it, or if they are here, they don't post. I know most of the active NESers from around here.

Maybe it's me but the "smell" I'm getting off this is that it's not your typical self defense scenario.

-Mike
 
From the OP:
Genoa has been charged with assault with intent to murder and mayhem.

I was half joking on that - the non-parallel grammar "with X, with Y and Z"

But "charged with... mayhem" is itself odd, but there is plenty of strange verbiage on the books up here from "olden times"...

"infernal machine" always makes me laugh and think of the "Wild, Wild, West" show...
 
Nelson Geraldino, 18, of 15 Crestview Lane, and Pedro Genoa, 17, of 137 Meadowbrook Lane, were killed when a party at 96 Mechanic St. erupted into violence shortly after 4:30 a.m., according to a statement from Worcester District Attorney Joseph D. Early Jr.

Nothing good happens after midnight. Thats what I tell my kids.
 
Well, since I live in the city, where these fine gentle men live(d), and I used to live on Mechanic St way back in the day, about 8 houses away, to give you an idea, the house in that area are all tight close quarters, and your lucky to find any kind of parking area. Back in the 90's, it was common for that area to be festering with drugs and just not a nice place to live. Granted that area, has tried to do a turn around, and a nicer group of people have bought some of the properties, and tried to fix the area up. But so long as those 6 family buildings, low to no income tenants, that live a few houses up continue to dwell their, and the fact you have a whole bunch of bottom feeders on Elm St. who congrigate towards the mini mart across the street, because they cash work a day checks, I really doubt it will get better any time soon. But, it was a lot worse, untill all of a sudden a whole bunch of those 6 family junkie houses started to go up in flames years ago. Just as in every city, you have good area's and bad, this area, not so good not so bad, some of the riff raff from Snow St. , North St. have moved in because the college came in and bought a bunch of houses near there and threw the trash out, it had to go somewhere.

In all fairness, I do love my home town, despite what anyone has to say about it. I do not find it that bad, but here again, I do not choose to live in that neighborhood and avoid putting myself in that situation.

Now, back on topic, and since it has been covered in many threads across this board, innocense and guilt of a crime is all about timing and actions. Had the guy with the gun fired one shot to stop his immediate attacker, then yes, I see a self defense claim, but, if once the attack was over, and he kept firing, or if someone cried "please don't shoot" and it happened to be his attacker, and he shot anyways, with no attack present then all bets are off. Just because you are in the heat of battle, does not excuse you from from your responsibility or accounability of your actions. I am sure, that things can get confusing, but that is why we train, that is why most of us here hold our selves at a higher standard, sometimes a higher standard than what we expect out of a police officer, because we don't take our own emotions for granted, and we do the best we can to keep our selves in check.

Now it says the guy had an LTC, which means he had passed the required back ground checks and was found ok to have a LTC. Problem is, maybe he did not follow up, with the right training. We may never know what was going thru that kids head when the first blast went off, or how he let his emotions get carried away, but the fact of the matter is a lesson to us all. Raw emotions in tense situations, may be the diffrence of a murder charge versus a self defense charge. I feel for the mothers involved, loss of a child, having to bury your kid is nothing any parent ever wants no matter how screwed up the family is.
 
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