Flintlock Musket for Black Powder Novice

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JenkkiMike

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I have been interested in getting into historical black powder shooting for a long time and have decided to go for it. A common theme that I keep reading is that experienced black powder guys recommend that novices start with firearms that use percussion caps since flintlocks are finicky and have a learning curve. The problem is that I have little interest in percussion cap firearms and my interests are more geared to flintlocks and matchlocks .

Am I a fool for wanting to dive right into flintlocks with no black powder experience?

Does anybody have some recommendations for decent reproduction flintlock muskets that are reasonably priced but not garbage? I've read that Pedersoli makes pretty good reproductions but their Brown Bess is over a grand. There is a company called Middlesex Village Trading Company out of Charlestown, NH that sells muskets that are priced very well and interest me that are imported from India and then inspected here.
 
If you're just getting started, you can get used T/C Hawkens/Renegades etc for around ~200$ these days, since most of the muzzleloader hunters have gone to in-lines*

Check put the racks in local gunshops (R&R out by the Quabbin had several last week) Hunter's Rendezvous in Pepperell is big on muzzleloaders!

*don't know why - a Hawken was good enough for Jeremiah Johnson ;) if you want some Hawken history, read "Mountain Man" by Vardis Fisher
 
Like @Arto mentioned, Thompson Center and other used hunting flintlocks from the 60s-00s are pretty common in gun stores or online. There's a few things to keep in mind about these, though. A fair amount of the guys who owned and used these guns took them out right before hunting season to check zero, hunted with them, and then put them away once they either filled their tag or the season ended. And maintenance for these guns involves the use of hot, boiling water. What this means is, these guns may have been poorly maintained. So, you want to make extra sure to check the bore and all other areas where powder would go are free and clear of rust. If the hole between the flash pan and the chamber is rusted or frosted, that'll be a pain.

The 60s-00s, lower end muzzleloaders can have pretty heavy triggers. Some have double set triggers. The guns typically aren't setup for optics, like the old fashioned Malcolm-style scopes. As an aside, that's what really killed the use of percussion rifles for hunting: the lack of the ability to easily use modern optics and also the lack of an easily-removeable breechplug.

Sounds like @JenkkiMike is more interested in military flintlocks than hunting ones. There are Brown Bess clones out there. Another option would be clones of the Charleville muskets, which were common here in the US because we received them during the Revolution as military aid from France, in addition to guns that colonists acquired during the previous sixty years of intermittent war and trade with New France and its native allies. There are also clones of historic rifles, again, such as the Hawken, and the PA and KY long rifles. There's even clones of the Ferguson. So, really, your imagination's the limit. Google's your friend.



 
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Please do yourself a favour and stay away from the made in India garbage. Get a Track of Wolf Indian Trade gun. Easy to build and good quality. Get the extra machining services when you order it. Also check for used guns at Clay Smith, Log Cabin Shop, Sitting Fox?... Good luck.
 
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I like flintlock muskets too. The learning curve is no steeper than it was in the 1700's. It's not complicated, and there's lot of good information out there. Check out the black powder shooting associations, like NSSA. You'll never get experience shooting flintlocks until you use one. Anything worthwhile in a larger caliber smoothbore will cost. But it will cost more in the long run to buy something poorly made, or something you don't really want, with all the necessary equipment, before finally spending the cash on what you originally wanted. I took the cheap India musket route. What I got was a gun with crude workmanship and the little I saved wasn't worth it. It took a little work and it shoots well enough but I wouldn't buy another. Bought some old Thompson Centers too. Well made, and fun to shoot, but they're not muskets. Just to start off, Pedersoli is a good make, and Track of the Wolf has good stuff. Take your time, do your research and spend your money once.
 
white feather said:
Please do yourself a favour and stay away from the made in India garbage. Get a Track of Hawk Indian Trade gun. Easy to build and good quality. Get the extra machining services when you order it. Also check for used guns at Clay Smith, Log Cabin Shop, Sitting Fox?... Good luck.
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware of the Track of Wolf, Sitting Fox, etc. kits. They look really nice and I assume that they are US made. They better be for the price! I like the French Fusil-de-Chasse kits in particular.

Are the made in India guns really garbage as you claim? They seem to be the only budget friendly options for the style of flintlocks that I like. From my limited research it looks like I can buy an Indian finished gun for around $650, an Italian made finished gun for around $1000, or a US made? kit for $1000 + 40+ hours of my own labor.
 
Use real black powder in a percussion or flintlock rife. Real black powder has a lower ignition temperature than any of the substitute powders.

I have never had a misfire using real black powder (GOEX or Swiss) even when hunting in the rain.

Bob
 
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Tell me that the Middlesex Trading (top) is in any way comparable to the Track of the Wolf (bottom) Fusil-de-Chasse. (Pictures from their websites)
 
matchlocks? JFC! ... what about wheellocks?

I think that diving into flintlocks, bypassing percussion caps is a little on crazy side. If you really want to dick around with flints, why not get a pistol and see how you like it, because it's easier to dick round with something smaller first.

Track of the Wolf is the only company that I know that has some reasonable variety and quality and price etc.

Keep in mind that a lot of used BP guns may have shitty bores, that's def a must, first thing to inspect.

Stay away from Indian/Spanish international crap. There is no reason for it and their metallurgy for mass fakes... ahem production is something left to be desired, even with US inspections, whatever that means.
 
If you want to get your gun sometime in your lifetime then order from Middlesex.
After about a year,and a half I gave up on my order,and asked for my money back.
I just purchased a blunderbuss from a company called Access Heritage Inc
I think it's based in Canada.They,are very well made,and fast shipping.You have to
drill out the vent hole on these muskets. Something to do with the shipping laws.
 
white feather said:
Tell me that the Middlesex Trading (top) is in any way comparable to the Track of the Wolf (bottom) Fusil-de-Chasse. (Pictures from their websites)
Click to expand...

I see what you mean. I like the idea of a project kit and buying quality but I need to shoot some black powder before I invest my money and time into such an undertaking.

Boris said:
I think that diving into flintlocks, bypassing percussion caps is a little on crazy side. If you really want to dick around with flints, why not get a pistol and see how you like it, because it's easier to dick round with something smaller first.
Click to expand...

The guy who built an AK out of a shovel is telling me that bypassing percussion caps is a little on the crazy side. Oh great. My take on it is that if illiterate 18th century people could manage loading and firing flintlocks, I have no excuse in 2020 with the entire wealth of human knowledge on the internet at my fingertips.
 
ipscdrl said:
Go for it.they are a lot of fun. My dad gave me a Brown Bess (replica) many years ago. Practice until you can load and shoot three rounds in a minute. That was the standard that early musketmen were held to.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6cUpEfFb3I
Click to expand...


I guess dropping the ramrod at the end is less embarrassing than forgetting to remove it from the barrel and shooting it down range! Impressive for sure still.
 
HorizontalHunter said:
Use real black powder in a percussion or flintlock rife. Real black powder has a lower ignition temperature than any of the substitute powders.
Click to expand...


QFT, you cannot use Pyrodex or other modern black powder "substitutes". Use the real stuff. Goex or Swiss always worked well for me.

FFFG or even FFFFG is best in the pan. As you can see from my video, I use one powder for the pan and the bore as I roll my own paper cartridges.
 
Don’t have a flintlock but I do have a few black powder guns. Cleaning is not to bad just do the heavy cleaning outside with access to a hose and then finish cleaning it like a normal gun in the house.
 
For a starter rifle, look for a TC Pennsylvania hunter. It has a round ball twist 1/66".The Hawken was set for mini balls with a 1/48" twist. Danny Caywood mades some nice muskets as does Clay Smith.
 
HorizontalHunter said:
Use real black powder in a percussion or flintlock rife. Real black powder has a lower ignition temperature than any of the substitute powders.

I have never had a misfire using real black powder (GOEX or Swiss) even when hunting in the rain.

Bob
Click to expand...

The lock time using a substitute is ridiculous. Trying to stay on target while the powder in the flash pan gets around to lighting the charge is a challenge.

I started with flint and the learning curve isn't anything to worry about, not using substitute powder aside. I was shooting it inside of an hour of getting it home. I have a couple cap and ball guns now too and other then my revolver they don't get anywhere near as much use as my flintlock. Check out Muzzle Loading Forum. Lot's of good info and the the for sale section often has good deals if you're quick enough.
 
1. Buy a CO2 cartridge thing with an adaptor for flintlock. Trust me, getting a ball out of there when you forget to put powder (it will happen) is not fun.

2. Middlesex sells nice looking muskets. But some reviews are terrible. Instead, check out a Canadian company. I think they are called Rebel Arms, or something like that. I can try to find it later.

3. Pederaoli muskets are awesome.

4. Start with a TC Hawken. Very accurate and easier to clean due to how easy it is to remove the barrel. They are cheap and you can still find aftermarket barrels, triggers and lock parts. They are the 10/22 of the black powder world.

5. I started with a Flintlock.

6. You will need FFF and FF powder for a Flintlock.

7. If you go with a rifle, get several thickness patches. For example, for. 45, get .454 balls and 0.10 + 0.15 patches. It will make a difference.

1 in 60 is perfect for balls. 1 in 48 is a compromise, it shoots minie bullets and balls. 1 in 24, don't shoot balls - you can, but it won't be great.

New muskets are very accurate. The Pededsoli Gibbs rifle is used to 1000 yards. A TC with a new barrel can get 1" groups at 100 yards with balls.

Use real black powder, you won't regret it.

Edit: the Canadian company is called Loyalist arms.

Read this about Middlesex:

Middlesex Village Trading Co

Gentlemen: My advice, go somewhere else. If MVTC is the only place that carries the item you want, wait until someone else carries the item you want or have someone you trust make it for you. Ordered a 'in stock' firearm from MVTC in early Nov. Although I do understand that it takes MVTC...
www.muzzleloadingforum.com www.muzzleloadingforum.com
 
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Boris said:
matchlocks? JFC! ... what about wheellocks?

I think that diving into flintlocks, bypassing percussion caps is a little on crazy side. If you really want to dick around with flints, why not get a pistol and see how you like it, because it's easier to dick round with something smaller first.

Track of the Wolf is the only company that I know that has some reasonable variety and quality and price etc.

Keep in mind that a lot of used BP guns may have shitty bores, that's def a must, first thing to inspect.

Stay away from Indian/Spanish international crap. There is no reason for it and their metallurgy for mass fakes... ahem production is something left to be desired, even with US inspections, whatever that means.
Click to expand...
Kittery Trading Post has a lot of guns. I purchased 4, maybe 5 guns from them. Never had an issue.

I also purchased a lot from Track of the Wolf. Their selection of components is the best.
 
Broccoli Iglesias said:
1. Buy a CO2 cartridge thing with an adaptor for flintlock. Trust me, getting a ball out of there when you forget to put powder (it will happen) is not fun.

2. Middlesex sells nice looking muskets. But some reviews are terrible. Instead, check out a Canadian company. I think they are called Rebel Arms, or something like that. I can try to find it later.

3. Pederaoli muskets are awesome.

4. Start with a TC Hawken. Very accurate and easier to clean due to how easy it is to remove the barrel. They are cheap and you can still find aftermarket barrels, triggers and lock parts. They are the 10/22 of the black powder world.

5. I started with a Flintlock.

6. You will need FFF and FF powder for a Flintlock.

7. If you go with a rifle, get several thickness patches. For example, for. 45, get .454 balls and 0.10 + 0.15 patches. It will make a difference.

1 in 60 is perfect for balls. 1 in 48 is a compromise, it shoots minie bullets and balls. 1 in 24, don't shoot balls - you can, but it won't be great.

New muskets are very accurate. The Pededsoli Gibbs rifle is used to 1000 yards. A TC with a new barrel can get 1" groups at 100 yards with balls.

Use real black powder, you won't regret it.

Edit: the Canadian company is called Loyalist arms.

Read this about Middlesex:

Middlesex Village Trading Co

Gentlemen: My advice, go somewhere else. If MVTC is the only place that carries the item you want, wait until someone else carries the item you want or have someone you trust make it for you. Ordered a 'in stock' firearm from MVTC in early Nov. Although I do understand that it takes MVTC...
www.muzzleloadingforum.com www.muzzleloadingforum.com
Click to expand...

Thanks for all of the good advice. I'll check out Hunter's Rendezvous in Pepperell since they seem to be focused around muzzle loaders and are only 40 minutes away from me. Sometimes I ride my road bike that way but I wouldn't walk into a place called "Hunter's Rendezvous" wearing bib shorts! I watched some videos and did some searches about the TC Hawken and I think it is a great idea for getting my feet wet before I commit to spending big money on something. After doing some research the past few days, I am going to avoid the stuff made in India.
 
JenkkiMike said:
Thanks for all of the good advice. I'll check out Hunter's Rendezvous in Pepperell since they seem to be focused around muzzle loaders and are only 40 minutes away from me. Sometimes I ride my road bike that way but I wouldn't walk into a place called "Hunter's Rendezvous" wearing bib shorts! I watched some videos and did some searches about the TC Hawken and I think it is a great idea for getting my feet wet before I commit to spending big money on something. After doing some research the past few days, I am going to avoid the stuff made in India.
Click to expand...
That place is awesome, but I don't shop there.
Their prices seem a little on the higher end, but that is not the problem. What pissed me off is that I wanted to have a Sharps rifle transfered, so when I called them to see if I could ship it to them they said they would need to charge me sales tax and tried to give me some BS excuse that it is like registering a car in MA. Yeah, f*ck that.

But, they do have some cool stuff and even some nice Shiloh sharps in stock as well as real black powder.

If you buy real black powder, try to get a can of 2F GOEX and 1 1/2 SWISS and try them (I think that is the equivalent - but Google it) and 3F powder for the flint (brand doesn't matter here).

SWISS is the top of the line when it comes to BP. GOEX is excellent and a little cheaper.

The TC Hawken is a ton of fun, and an excellent rifle to compete. I have 2 of them, I gave one to my father and I have enough parts to build a third.
 
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Broccoli Iglesias said:
1. Buy a CO2 cartridge thing with an adaptor for flintlock. Trust me, getting a ball out of there when you forget to put powder (it will happen) is not fun.

2. Middlesex sells nice looking muskets. But some reviews are terrible. Instead, check out a Canadian company. I think they are called Rebel Arms, or something like that. I can try to find it later.

3. Pederaoli muskets are awesome.

4. Start with a TC Hawken. Very accurate and easier to clean due to how easy it is to remove the barrel. They are cheap and you can still find aftermarket barrels, triggers and lock parts. They are the 10/22 of the black powder world.

5. I started with a Flintlock.

6. You will need FFF and FF powder for a Flintlock.

7. If you go with a rifle, get several thickness patches. For example, for. 45, get .454 balls and 0.10 + 0.15 patches. It will make a difference.

1 in 60 is perfect for balls. 1 in 48 is a compromise, it shoots minie bullets and balls. 1 in 24, don't shoot balls - you can, but it won't be great.

New muskets are very accurate. The Pededsoli Gibbs rifle is used to 1000 yards. A TC with a new barrel can get 1" groups at 100 yards with balls.

Use real black powder, you won't regret it.

Edit: the Canadian company is called Loyalist arms.

Read this about Middlesex:

Middlesex Village Trading Co

Gentlemen: My advice, go somewhere else. If MVTC is the only place that carries the item you want, wait until someone else carries the item you want or have someone you trust make it for you. Ordered a 'in stock' firearm from MVTC in early Nov. Although I do understand that it takes MVTC...
www.muzzleloadingforum.com www.muzzleloadingforum.com
Click to expand...
in #7, for a .45 T/C, you want 0.440" roundball
 
JenkkiMike said:
Where would you recommend browsing that's in or near Southern NH besides Kittery Trading Post?
Click to expand...
Besides Hunters Rendezvous, I have no idea.

In New England I only ever purchased black powder rifles from KTP. Everything else I ordered online.

You could stop by Cabelas, they usually have some rifles. I remember always seeing a couple of Pedersoli and a couple of Lyman I believe.

Old Colony Gun Club in Pembroke has monthly BP shoots. You should go to one, check out their rifles and ask questions.
 
Broccoli Iglesias said:
1. Buy a CO2 cartridge thing with an adaptor for flintlock. Trust me, getting a ball out of there when you forget to put powder (it will happen) is not fun.
Click to expand...

Everyone is going to dry ball sooner or later. The best thing to do is not to let yourself get interrupted during the reload cycle so you don’t screw up.

On a percussion rifle you can pull the nipple and drop a few grains of powder in the bolster, replace the nipple and shoot the dry ball out.

I would think you can do the same on a flintlock as well by pulling the flash hole liner.

Bob
 

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