FN 509 MRD-LE Selected As The New LAPD Duty Pistol

[Dennis in MA]

20,000 round endurance test.

Is that just stupid or is it me???

First - no cop issued this gun is EVER going to run 20,000 rounds through it. Not 10% of that. At least not on a single weapon. Long gone are the days when Barney gets issued a 38 in 1948 and he retires with the same gun and some other guy carries it for his entire career. Departments swap out guns on a regular basis. If the gun gets 1,000 rounds, I'd be a bit surprised.

Second - how many guns did they do? I'm betting one. So you're entire Go/NoGo is based on as single sample. Don't take 10 of them and run 10,000 rounds. Do one at 20,000. Possibly hand-picked by the manufacturer.

If I were an armorer, I'd go down to Joe Blow Gunshop and buy 5 of them (because I doubt my department would spring for 10) and then run THEM thru 10,000 rounds as fast as I actually could.

THAT'S a test. Then still not worry about the average duty cop. I'd be 99x more concerned with fast-acquisition sights and ergonomics that every cop could use versus torture tests.

 

[cams]

My guess is that it was a "free upgrade."
In reality, cutting the slide for a RDS probably takes a CNC machine an additional 20 seconds at the factory. It is one of those "value added" features that manufacturers love. It cost them $1.00 to produce, but they can charge $100.00 for it.

I am not a fan of RDS, and especially not on a carry gun or duty pistol. Murphy's law says that anything that can go wrong will go wrong, and when Sgt. Friday drops his gun on the concrete and trashes his red dot, he is screwed.
I like them on my AR's, if they co witness with the BUS, in combination with a magnifier, but would rather a good set of night sights on a pistol.
YMMV

It’s a very awkward transition, or at least has been from my experience. I’m currently trying to adjust myself to my first RDS on a G45. I’m literally just presenting the weapon over and over and over, watching tv, present the pistol and try to have the Dot on whatever is deemed the threat in each particular room. Walking around the house, present, etc etc and I’m still struggling to find the dot instinctively. I need to renew my range membership (it suffured some damage last year with rain collapse and mold during the shutdown) and actually see how it goes with live fire next before I’d even attempt to carry it with a RDS.

I’m no wiz kid with a pistol, but I’m not a slouch either, this is like forgetting everything you know and having to relearn it all from the draw to the presentation. It’s frustrating as hell and I don’t see your average beat cop (a non-gun person so to speak) putting much time into learning something like this.

I’ll add that I can absolutely see it’s effectiveness in use on an EDC, but my eyes/hands/brain just haven’t caught up yet, though I’ll keep working on it for sure.

 

[mousegunfan]

Lol. God no.

LOL, wait until those Lego's start falling apart in a few years.

 

[jct61765]

LOL, wait until those Lego's start falling apart in a few

LOL, wait until those Lego's start falling apart in a few year

LOL, wait until those Lego's start falling apart in a few years.

Falling apart how?

 

[agabriel]

Only smith does that bullshit (and sig on the P250) not sure if FN did or not. I haven't bothered keeping track of what trash is in MA SKUed guns for awhile now. Not really relevant to LE use because LE doesn't get that trash anyways. The "MA Trigger" thing is a joke that really only smith owners understand...

Not really... A lot of Sig's out of the box triggers are absolutely trash. Bruce Gray makes them incredible. Virtually everyone hates Glock's triggers until some work is done - they are really mushy and not overly predictable. It seems like an aspect of typical carry guns to me.

 

[Broc]

My guess is that it was a "free upgrade."
In reality, cutting the slide for a RDS probably takes a CNC machine an additional 20 seconds at the factory. It is one of those "value added" features that manufacturers love. It cost them $1.00 to produce, but they can charge $100.00 for it.

I am not a fan of RDS, and especially not on a carry gun or duty pistol. Murphy's law says that anything that can go wrong will go wrong, and when Sgt. Friday drops his gun on the concrete and trashes his red dot, he is screwed.
I like them on my AR's, if they co witness with the BUS, in combination with a magnifier, but would rather a good set of night sights on a pistol.
YMMV

That's why a carry gun needs co-witness, if you can get thet with a RDS, you are good to go. Anything that can fail will fail, specially electronics.

 

[drgrant]

Not really... A lot of Sig's out of the box triggers are absolutely trash. Bruce Gray makes them incredible. Virtually everyone hates Glock's triggers until some work is done - they are really mushy and not overly predictable. It seems like an aspect of typical carry guns to me.

That's different than the subject of intentional neutering. And objectvely a FN509 is dramatically worse than a stock glock or a P320 in terms of trigger feel and predictability. There are even poverty guns like the Taurus G3 that are way better out of the box.

Recently I tried a Beretta APX I thought that was pretty bad (because of the stiff wall) but then I started seeing fn-509 and playing with them and I'm like "Jesus Christ these things are horrible... "

 

[Broc]

It’s a very awkward transition, or at least has been from my experience. I’m currently trying to adjust myself to my first RDS on a G45. I’m literally just presenting the weapon over and over and over, watching tv, present the pistol and try to have the Dot on whatever is deemed the threat in each particular room. Walking around the house, present, etc etc and I’m still struggling to find the dot instinctively. I need to renew my range membership (it suffured some damage last year with rain collapse and mold during the shutdown) and actually see how it goes with live fire next before I’d even attempt to carry it with a RDS.

I’m no wiz kid with a pistol, but I’m not a slouch either, this is like forgetting everything you know and having to relearn it all from the draw to the presentation. It’s frustrating as hell and I don’t see your average beat cop (a non-gun person so to speak) putting much time into learning something like this.

I’ll add that I can absolutely see it’s effectiveness in use on an EDC, but my eyes/hands/brain just haven’t caught up yet, though I’ll keep working on it for sure.

This is interesting. I had the opposite experience, but I shoot irons a lot. So switching to a RDS was very easy, I just hold the gun the same way and there is the dot.

I love RDS now. Most of my guns still have irons, since I am big into learning how to properly shoot with irons and maintaining that skill (and my eye sights still excellent). But I have so much fun with the RDS, I can see a future where all my guns have a RDS.

 

[drgrant]

This is interesting. I had the opposite experience, but I shoot irons a lot. So switching to a RDS was very easy, I just hold the gun the same way and there is the dot.

I love RDS now. Most of my guns still have irons, since I am big into learning how to properly shoot with irons and maintaining that skill (and my eye sights still excellent). But I have so much fun with the RDS, I can see a future where all my guns have a RDS.

I know what the advantage is myself having run the things on pins etcetera but I also simultaneously groan going "oh great more s*** to put batteries in" . I see the win with NVGs but for traditional carry guns? meh. I will always think tiny TV sets on tiny guns are stupid. The view port is barely larger than a thumb.

 

[Broc]

I know what the advantage is myself having run the things on pins etcetera but I also simultaneously groan going "oh great more s*** to put batteries in" . I see the win with NVGs but for traditional carry guns? meh. I will always think tiny TV sets on tiny guns are stupid. The view port is barely larger than a thumb.

I agree on the battery. One more thing to remember, one more thing that can fail.

 

[drgrant]

I agree on the battery. One more thing to remember, one more thing that can fail.

At one point I wanted to build the ultimate fag carry gun that hat was like a p365 that had a big flashlight, a visible laser and also a tiny RDS on it. Maybe rubber band a children's cereal spoon to it for good measure

 

[92G]

The military should have chosen this gun over the 320.

that is hilarious
the only pistol more poorly designed than a P320 is the FNS/509

 

[weekendracer]

20,000 round endurance test.

Is that just stupid or is it me???

First - no cop issued this gun is EVER going to run 20,000 rounds through it. Not 10% of that. At least not on a single weapon. Long gone are the days when Barney gets issued a 38 in 1948 and he retires with the same gun and some other guy carries it for his entire career. Departments swap out guns on a regular basis. If the gun gets 1,000 rounds, I'd be a bit surprised.

Second - how many guns did they do? I'm betting one. So you're entire Go/NoGo is based on as single sample. Don't take 10 of them and run 10,000 rounds. Do one at 20,000. Possibly hand-picked by the manufacturer.

If I were an armorer, I'd go down to Joe Blow Gunshop and buy 5 of them (because I doubt my department would spring for 10) and then run THEM thru 10,000 rounds as fast as I actually could.

THAT'S a test. Then still not worry about the average duty cop. I'd be 99x more concerned with fast-acquisition sights and ergonomics that every cop could use versus torture tests.

We tested 6 manufacturers, multiple guns, I forget the round count but I'm pretty sure it was more than 20k.

It's about finding an actual mean time between failure, not what the manufacturer says. The 'undisputed' Glock failed back in 2003ish, both guns broke early in the failure test. We went with HnK, the only gun still running at the end of the test. The HnK USP is a tank. Runs dirtier than you'd ever get one. Glock won it this time and it was a much tougher testing routine. When you are responsible for thousands of weapons, you don't want your armorers stacked up with lots of guns broken.

I know I've put more than 10k rounds through this Glock in the last 5 months, it's still humming along. I've cleaned it twice, before I really hammered it the last 5 months. I'll be buying at least a G19, probably one of the 'competition' guns as well.

 

[weekendracer]

It’s a very awkward transition, or at least has been from my experience. I’m currently trying to adjust myself to my first RDS on a G45. I’m literally just presenting the weapon over and over and over, watching tv, present the pistol and try to have the Dot on whatever is deemed the threat in each particular room. Walking around the house, present, etc etc and I’m still struggling to find the dot instinctively. I need to renew my range membership (it suffured some damage last year with rain collapse and mold during the shutdown) and actually see how it goes with live fire next before I’d even attempt to carry it with a RDS.

I’m no wiz kid with a pistol, but I’m not a slouch either, this is like forgetting everything you know and having to relearn it all from the draw to the presentation. It’s frustrating as hell and I don’t see your average beat cop (a non-gun person so to speak) putting much time into learning something like this.

I’ll add that I can absolutely see it’s effectiveness in use on an EDC, but my eyes/hands/brain just haven’t caught up yet, though I’ll keep working on it for sure.

We changed the way we teach it. We start aimed in and move back towards the holster in stages. You then reverse it and you have your draw. There's some science/voodoo about how it allows 'muscle memory' ( I wasn't allowed to say that) to develop. Your draw isn't set up for the RDS, you have to start over. I had to do it with the new 'high vis' sights when I switched to the Glock.

Take it for what it is, we paid a lot of money and spent time developing it, do with the knowledge what you will. The way you typed it, it sounds like you are starting in the holster.

 

[cams]

We changed the way we teach it. We start aimed in and move back towards the holster in stages. You then reverse it and you have your draw. There's some science/voodoo about how it allows 'muscle memory' ( I wasn't allowed to say that) to develop. Your draw isn't set up for the RDS, you have to start over. I had to do it with the new 'high vis' sights when I switched to the Glock.

Take it for what it is, we paid a lot of money and spent time developing it, do with the knowledge what you will. The way you typed it, it sounds like you are starting in the holster.

Correct, and interesting, I’ll try that as I’m just around the house anyway and see how it goes. Nothing to lose by trying it out. Thank you.

 

[weekendracer]

Correct, and interesting, I’ll try that as I’m just around the house anyway and see how it goes. Nothing to lose by trying it out. Thank you.

Cool. You can probably just transition from aimed in to low ready/ready pistol. We did the full thing for new shooters. Just keep the gun level and escalator it when you transition. I did all the steps and suddenly I had a sub second draw from an ALS holster.

 

[cams]

Cool. You can probably just transition from aimed in to low ready/ready pistol. We did the full thing for new shooters. Just keep the gun level and escalator it when you transition. I did all the steps and suddenly I had a sub second draw from an ALS holster.

Roger. Mine will be a little slower. lol
Using an IWB holster for this pistol so that speaks for itself, but I’ll still walk the steps and work from the top down. Preciate you.

 

[weekendracer]

Roger. Mine will be a little slower. lol
Using an IWB holster for this pistol so that speaks for itself, but I’ll still walk the steps and work from the top down. Preciate you.

Yeah, anything other than a duty holster, not timing that crap. I loved my time at the academy, it's a damn shark pit, but it's all about everyone getting better. Lots of tough love.

 

[AHM]

In any incidents where rounds are fired, anybody involved usually has their firearms secured by forensics personal and gone over with a fine tooth comb to determine which weapons were fired and matching them to ballistic evidence found on scene or if anything internally has been modified outside of standard issue req’s so that opposing attorneys during any following trial or invest. can’t turn that around and say “Hey Off Joe Blow had replaced his standard 12lb trigger with a modified trigger that only has a 4.5lb pull. This guy is a loose canon who was just looking to get into a gunfight and as such even modified his issued dept firearm with a custom gunfighting trigger!” The case would be shot right there, bad guy gets off and the cop would be hung out to dry, just for wanting a non shit brick sandy beach trigger.

Cheer up: nowadays the perp gets compassionate release because of Teh Covid,
and will never return to appear at trial anyhow. So polish that sear, bay-bay!

20,000 round endurance test.

Is that just stupid or is it me???

First - no cop issued this gun is EVER going to run 20,000 rounds through it. Not 10% of that. At least not on a single weapon.

(As @weekendracer alludes above), you don't measure the lifetime of a light bulb
to see if it meets a "400 day bulb" advertising campaign, by leaving one bulb turned on
for more than a year and not starting the production line until you see if it survives.
You test a bunch of bulbs and extrapolate the expected reliability
from how much infant mortality you see in the sample.

Similarly, you don't wait to see how long a gun lasts in service
to predict its reliability - you beat the snot out of some and see if
any common fatal design flaws surface. That's usually how systems exhibit failure.

Note the 6000-round tests of the 1911:

An Official Journal Of The NRA | The Trials of the M1911

The adoption of the M1911 came to be through a lengthy trials process and a partnership between Colt’s Mfg. and John Moses Browning.

www.americanrifleman.org

It seems like over 1.2 millions rounds were fired
when evaluating the M16:
Report of the M16 Rifle Review Panel

Second - how many guns did they do? I'm betting one. So you're entire Go/NoGo is based on as single sample. Don't take 10 of them and run 10,000 rounds. Do one at 20,000. Possibly hand-picked by the manufacturer.

If I were an armorer, I'd go down to Joe Blow Gunshop and buy 5 of them (because I doubt my department would spring for 10) and then run THEM thru 10,000 rounds as fast as I actually could.

THAT'S a test.

MTBF estimation is such a formal affair that an industrial Special Interest Group
has dinner every month just to discuss stuff like that. It's one of The Bride's specialties.
There's no lack of engineering consultants that a police department can hire to design
a testing program - if they want to do it right.

If they didn't test it right, it was probably because The Fix Was In.

It’s a very awkward transition, or at least has been from my experience. I’m currently trying to adjust myself to my first RDS on a G45. I’m literally just presenting the weapon over and over and over, watching tv, present the pistol and try to have the Dot on whatever is deemed the threat in each particular room. Walking around the house, present, etc etc and I’m still struggling to find the dot instinctively.

Put a laser on it, and get a cat?
Belay that; never mind.

I know what the advantage is myself having run the things on pins etcetera but I also simultaneously groan going "oh great more s*** to put batteries in" .

Don't get your bowels in an uproar.

I remember when bicycle headlight technology
was so primitive that the New Hotness was
quartz bulbs and a NiCad that fit in a water bottle cage
that cost well over $100.

Hell, I remember the Aluma-Weld/Gorilla-Tape/Alinco-Magnet
guy at the Flea@MIT proving to me with actual geometric logic
that it was mathematically impossible
to focus the light beam coming from an LED.

Now almost any cheezoid flashlight from Harbor Freight
has vastly superior performance off of standard LEDs
and a few crap AAA alkalines.

Component and power reliability and longevity
are careening towards good plateaus.
It's getting so that operating operators deservedly reject electronic
sights that don't use batteries available at every supermarket
checkout impulse buy rack.

(Unless you accidentally buy a pirate knock-off assembled
in some goober's Wuhan apartment living room.
Then you won't be so happy).

 

[AHM]

Don't get your bowels in an uproar.

Hmmm. Not that I have more than one optic system above cheezoid level.