Fun Fact: Zero School Shootings Where Teachers Are Armed

[safetyfirst2125]

Gun Expert’s Study Suggests a Simple, Powerful Solution to Stop Mass Shootings at Schools​

The mass shooting at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas has left many alarmed parents seeking immediate ways to better secure our schools against such future horrific attacks.

Beyond improving police response and ensuring basic security measures like locking doors during school hours are followed, there is one additional measure that can be installed to enhance school safety.

It is, however, controversial: Permitting teachers and school resource officers on school grounds to be armed. While many parents who support gun control measures would shudder at the thought of allowing armed teachers at the schools their little ones attend, there is surprising evidence that suggests it may be a simple, powerful solution.

A 2019 study conducted by gun violence expert John Lott Jr. shows there wasn’t one school where a teacher was armed that had a non-suicidal gun violence incident during school hours.

“After the Columbine school shooting 20 years ago, one of the more significant changes in how we protect students has been the advance of legislation that allows teachers to carry guns at schools, the study notes. “There are two obvious questions: Does letting teachers carry create dangers? Might they deter attackers? Twenty states currently allow teachers and staff to carry guns to varying degrees on school property, so we don’t need to guess how the policy would work.”

“There has yet to be a single case of someone being wounded or killed from a shooting, let alone a mass public shooting, between 6 AM and midnight at a school that lets teachers carry guns,” the study continues. “Fears of teachers carrying guns in terms of such problems as students obtaining teachers guns have not occurred at all, and there was only one accidental discharge outside of school hours with no one was really harmed.”

“While there have not been any problems at schools with armed teachers, the number of people killed at other schools has increased significantly – doubling between 2001 and 2008 versus 2009 and 2018,” the report adds.

More including detailed data breakdown of incidents here:

Gun Expert's Study Suggests a Simple, Powerful Solution to Stop Mass Shootings at Schools

The mass shooting at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas has left many alarmed parents seeking immediate ways to better secure our […] More

trendingpolitics.com

 

[Picton]

Useful. It's unlikely to convince anyone that teachers can stop school shooters, but it definitively shows that there's no epidemic of negligent on-campus discharges, nor of teachers leaving guns in bathrooms for kids to find... The main objection I've always heard to arming teachers is that kids could get ahold of the guns, but this study indicates that has never happened.

 

[Horrible]

Useful. It's unlikely to convince anyone that teachers can stop school shooters, but it definitively shows that there's no epidemic of negligent on-campus discharges, nor of teachers leaving guns in bathrooms for kids to find... The main objection I've always heard to arming teachers is that kids could get ahold of the guns, but this study indicates that has never happened.

So, whoever is making these arguments that you have heard doesn’t trust the teachers to be responsible enough, even after proper training?

 

[Picton]

So, whoever is making these arguments that you have heard doesn’t trust the teachers to be responsible enough, even after proper training?

Well, in a world where even "highly-trained" cops and soldiers do irresponsible things with firearms, it's hard for me to blame them frankly. That's why this data makes me happy.

 

[BigTimber]

I think this is the only solution. But before I forward this to make the point can anyone site a number on how many schools actually have armed teachers? I can’t find a number. There’s 130,000ish public and private schools in the USA. If there’s only a hundred schools where teachers are armed this graph isn’t exactly impressive.

 

[Picton]

I think this is the only solution. But before I forward this to make the point can anyone site a number on how many schools actually have armed teachers? I can’t find a number. There’s 130,000ish public and private schools in the USA. If there’s only a hundred schools where teachers are armed this graph isn’t exactly impressive.

They make the point in the study that there's no way to know; concealed means concealed. They only look at places where the policy allows carry, and at the training numbers.

There would never be a way to know for certain how many teachers carry on a given day, whether lawfully or un-.

 

[safetyfirst2125]

I think this is the only solution. But before I forward this to make the point can anyone site a number on how many schools actually have armed teachers? I can’t find a number. There’s 130,000ish public and private schools in the USA. If there’s only a hundred schools where teachers are armed this graph isn’t exactly impressive.

From the underlying report:

“As of December 2018, 315 Texas school districts have teachers who carry, over 30 percent of all school districts. That is up from 217 school districts in June 2018. By September 2018, Ohio teachers in 82 or the state’s 88 counties had received training to carry a concealed handgun. At the other end, there are states such as Colorado and Florida where in 2018 there were only 30 and 13 school districts respectively that had teachers carrying guns.

Clark Aposhian, the senior member of Utah's Concealed Firearm Review Board, estimates that roughly 5 percent of teachers in his state carry permitted concealed handguns at school. Support staff — including janitors, librarians, secretaries, and lunch staff — carry at a higher estimated rate of between 10 and 12 percent.

There is no comprehensive list of school districts that allow teachers to carry. Since most states that allow teacher to carry leave it up to the discretion of individual schools and these schools have granted teachers the ability to carry in different years, we contacted each institution that experienced a shooting and where questions remained about what had been the school’s firearms policy (see Appendix 2).”

Schools that Allow Teachers to Carry Guns are Extremely Safe: Data on the Rate of Shootings and Accidents in Schools that allow Teachers to Carry

After the Columbine school shooting 20 years ago, one of the more significant changes in how we protect students has been the advance of legislation that allows

deliverypdf.ssrn.com

 

[AHM]

... before I forward this to make the point can anyone site a number on how many schools actually have armed teachers? I can’t find a number. There’s 130,000ish public and private schools in the USA. If there’s only a hundred schools where teachers are armed this graph isn’t exactly impressive.

Meanwhile,
over in the ``"Long Range" Rifle Platform" thread
they're chasing "nodes" by analyzing the "statistics"
from single-sample experiments ("laddering").

 

[safetyfirst2125]

From the underlying report:

 

[Picton]

What's interesting to me is that MA is not listed as allowing carry at all, but technically a building principal is allowed to waive GFZ here in MA. It has to be done in writing, though, and I don't know of too many MA administrators who would stick their necks out like that.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

From the underlying report:

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With permission/approval from so and so etc.. Horse shit

 

[quinnjalan]

"In 1974, at a school in the northern Israeli town of Ma'alot, three terrorists from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine murdered 22 children. After the Ma'alot Massacre, Israel put into place a nationwide system to fortify and protect all schools of 100 students or more. There have been no other school shootings in Israel since then."

What if American Schools Were Protected Like Israeli Schools?

The first thing Israel did after the Ma'alot Massacre was to make certain that each school had a perimeter barrier and guarded entry points.

www.newsweek.com

Schools in the US don't face the same threat but the numbers speak for themselves.

 

[tuna]

My argument about arming teachers is that they tend to be liberal leaning, if not completely leftist. Not all, but the majority. Therefore, most commonly you'll have teachers who choose not to be armed, because they don't want to. Now I'm wondering if some of these indoctrinators would purposefully be careless to allow guns in the hands of children to prove that it's a bad idea.

Sure, the answer in Tuna Town would be to allow the kids to be armed. Good luck to pedos when little kids can fight back, nice knowing you school shooter when you walk into a class of rednecks that shoot back and golly gee wouldn't it be great if the honor roll kids were left alone by the neighborhood gangs because they left a couple bleeding out in the street? My idea has merit - but it would never be enacted until I become emperor, I know.

How about adding gun safety to the curriculum? Let's compromise: teach kids that people with mental illnesses say there are 432 genders in the morning, and in the afternoon teach basic gun safety. It doesn't have to be a marksmanship class, though that would be awesome, but the basic ability to handle a firearm without being a danger to all around could prevent tragedies.

It sucks that parents think that by preventing access to guns they prevent access to them. We just had a sleepover, and my son's friend isn't allowed to use knives or sharp tools. OK - the kid is a spaz, but he's drawn to these forbidden fruits like a moth to flame. I taught him some basics on how not to cut off his toe, but this kid's dad is surprisingly in the picture - I don't know if he's given up on the kid or what, but this is a 10 year old that doesn't know how to hold a hatchet. I'm extrapolating this to mean he can't swing a hammer, either.

I'm not one to advocate schools raising our kids - but if parents won't do their jobs it's the lesser of two evils.

This is why there will be mandatory sterilization in my empire - because most people are too dumb to have kids.

 

[AHM]

What's interesting to me is that MA is not listed as allowing carry at all, but technically a building principal is allowed to waive GFZ here in MA. It has to be done in writing, though, and I don't know of too many MA administrators who would stick their necks out like that.

I was just saying to someone at my club last night that if any Mass principal
stuck their neck out by granting someone carry permission,
the district administration or school board would immediately
arrogate the power to themselves, and rescind the permission.

 

[Picton]

I was just saying to someone at my club last night that if any Mass principal
stuck their neck out by granting someone carry permission,
the district administration or school board would immediately
arrogate the power to themselves, and rescind the permission.

Well... I'm not so sure about that. In my town, the principal could write a letter like that and literally no one would know.

Unless there was an actual Incident. At which point all hell would break loose... on the principal.

I'm not sure I'd even blame a principal for withholding permission; there's no law that protects them, either, in something like this. It's a tough call.

 

[jct61765]

If it's good enough for Israel.

 

[Broc Tuah]

The argument that armed school teachers prevent shooting is soooo weak (I wish it wasnt).

I can grab a map, place my finger on any of the thousands of schools across the country and the chances there was a mass shooting are less than 1%.

The point is, so few schools have armed teachers, and so few have mass shootings, we can't say one prevents the other.

I could say gun free zones around schools in Southern MA prevent school shootings. When was the last mass shooting in a South Shore school?

 

[Mesatchornug]

The argument that armed school teachers prevent shooting is soooo weak (I wish it wasnt).

I can grab a map, place my finger on any of the thousands of schools across the country and the chances there was a mass shooting are less than 1%.

The point is, so few schools have armed teachers, and so few have mass shootings, we can't say one prevents the other.

I could say gun free zones around schools in Southern MA prevent school shootings. When was the last mass shooting in a South Shore school?

This is why @Picton's read is more useful - despite the sturm und drang that allowing teachers to carry will result in students getting their hands on firearms (or other negative outcomes) there hasn't been a single example of such. Considering how frequently police firearms are found not on the officer's person, one would think there'd be an example to support their protestations.

 

[Broc Tuah]

This is why @Picton's read is more useful - despite the sturm und drang that allowing teachers to carry will result in students getting their hands on firearms (or other negative outcomes) there hasn't been a single example of such. Considering how frequently police firearms are found not on the officer's person, one would think there'd be an example to support their protestations.

I agree with that.

 

[MaverickNH]

Mass school shooters either have specific or non-specific targets - they either intend vengeance agaist their school or a school venue based on access. If little Jonny wants to shoot up HIS school, he’ll gather intel on where/when it’s best to attack and maximize kill before doing a selfie. Or Jonny might want to shoot up kids in general and will pick the school with least resistance.

Visibly armed SROs and public knowledge that some teachers/staff carry is optimal deterrent, as Jonny cannot be sure he’ll get off many shots before being stoppped. But if Jonny wants to kill, he’ll just take that risk if focused on a specific target or move to a softer target.

The academic question is why 1970s Jonny wasn’t a school shooter, while 21st Century Jonny is a school shooter. It’s not that the US gun stock crossed some threshold per capita figure To trigger Jonny. The answer will not be fixable by any gun law.

 

[Dadstoys]

"In 1974, at a school in the northern Israeli town of Ma'alot, three terrorists from the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine murdered 22 children. After the Ma'alot Massacre, Israel put into place a nationwide system to fortify and protect all schools of 100 students or more. There have been no other school shootings in Israel since then."

What if American Schools Were Protected Like Israeli Schools?

The first thing Israel did after the Ma'alot Massacre was to make certain that each school had a perimeter barrier and guarded entry points.

www.newsweek.com

Schools in the US don't face the same threat but the numbers speak for themselves.

These guys come to kill , not die.
They pick places where the odds are in their favor.

 

[Gasgunner]

The nuance that the anti’s fail to grasp, is the value of ambiguity. Qualified individuals should be allowed to carry anywhere. Are there CC’ers in a particular crowd? Maybe? Do you really want to make a move and find out? They don’t even realize how dangerous the GFZ concept is. You don’t *have* to arm teachers, but don’t f-ing guarantee that there’s no armed opposition.

 

[MaverickNH]

I had a discussion with a long-time NY friend (school librarian) last evening wrt armed teachers at schools. It turns out she could only reference one case where responding police shot and wounded an armed citizen. Rather than challenge her on that incident, I said lets suppose that happened - 32 states allow teachers/staff to carry, with varying requirements, some for decades - does one incident indict the practice done safely by tens of thousands in thousands of schools for years? After some fast thinking, she retreated to just being opposed to the practice.

OK, I say, let’s say a Federal laws bans any other than sworn law enforcement from having guns in schools this year - what do we do to protect children from nut cases who can find one of 425+ million guns in the US? The answer was, we never should have let that number of guns get so big. Yada, yada, yada. I didn’t want to fully trash my NY friend so let it sit.

The other friend in the discussion actually had a NYS CCW permit from a permissive county judge, recounting all the BS he had to go through for he and his wife to get them. She’s an armorer for TV/movie production and is dealing with all the fallout from the Rust/Baldwin incident. When we got to NH, his jaw dropped when I recounted the NH gun laws - if you want to buy a gun in New Hampshire…go ahead. People just can’t imagine freedom exits elsewhere. They got a letter from the county saying they would have to go back and re-qualify under the new NY rules when their CCWs expire, which is November 2022. That’s another nightmare - he expects there will be no system in place in time.

 

[weekendracer]

The argument that armed school teachers prevent shooting is soooo weak (I wish it wasnt).

I can grab a map, place my finger on any of the thousands of schools across the country and the chances there was a mass shooting are less than 1%.

The point is, so few schools have armed teachers, and so few have mass shootings, we can't say one prevents the other.

I could say gun free zones around schools in Southern MA prevent school shootings. When was the last mass shooting in a South Shore school?

This has been my argument for a couple of years now. Pretty sure you're more likely to win the Powerball than be at a school where an actual 'school shooting' happens. Not a gang hit, or a domestic violence event, but a Uvalde/Columbine style crazy person showing up during school hours just to kill kids.

 

[weekendracer]

Gunshots on Tennessee high school campus halt football game

As to my other post. Would any of us consider this a 'school shooting'? I'd have to have more facts before I made a decision, but initially I'm not willing to put it in that classification.

 

[Picton]

This has been my argument for a couple of years now. Pretty sure you're more likely to win the Powerball than be at a school where an actual 'school shooting' happens. Not a gang hit, or a domestic violence event, but a Uvalde/Columbine style crazy person showing up during school hours just to kill kids.

I agree, but you could (and should) say the same thing about ANY armed encounter. Most of us will go an entire lifetime, strolling through our daily rounds, and we'll never have a need to carry in all that time.

But we carry anyway. Because it's better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

I want to carry in my school for the same reason I want to carry on the street: just in case. I don't separate the two at all. In fact, if anything, I think teachers probably have a greater need to carry, probability-wise. If I do get involved in an armed incident, I would fully expect it to happen at my school instead of anywhere else I go. Because everywhere else I go, I choose to go: I can make my own risk assessment and maintain my own SA, and adjust my choices accordingly. I cannot do that in my school.

If I'm in real life and gunfire breaks out, then provided I've maintained my SA, I can usually evade it. At my workplace, if gunfire breaks out, I've got no choice other than to sit there and take it. I'd love to be armed if that happens.

And yes. You're right. It probably never will.

 

[weekendracer]

I agree, but you could (and should) say the same thing about ANY armed encounter. Most of us will go an entire lifetime, strolling through our daily rounds, and we'll never have a need to carry in all that time.

But we carry anyway. Because it's better to have and not need, than to need and not have.

I want to carry in my school for the same reason I want to carry on the street: just in case. I don't separate the two at all. In fact, if anything, I think teachers probably have a greater need to carry, probability-wise. If I do get involved in an armed incident, I would fully expect it to happen at my school instead of anywhere else I go. Because everywhere else I go, I choose to go: I can make my own risk assessment and maintain my own SA, and adjust my choices accordingly. I cannot do that in my school.

If I'm in real life and gunfire breaks out, then provided I've maintained my SA, I can usually evade it. At my workplace, if gunfire breaks out, I've got no choice other than to sit there and take it. I'd love to be armed if that happens.

And yes. You're right. It probably never will.

In my world, you'd be fine to carry, or not, concealed means concealed. I'd rather you be a hero than a martyr. I doubt you'd leave your kids alone for your own safety, I'd rather have a happy parade than a sad procession.

 

[Picton]

I doubt you'd leave your kids alone for your own safety...

I wouldn't have a choice. I'm stuck on the third floor. All of us are sitting ducks until the shooter is neutralized.

I think about this sort of thing a lot. And that's the point I made just now: I have fewer options in my building than I do in the rest of the Commonwealth.

More to the point of what you're saying, yes... and there might be teachers caught in a school shooting who abandoned ship, but I'm not aware of any. Almost every time, these people (most of them antis) make the right choice and sacrifice themselves protecting their kids. I don't think they're cowards. I'd just rather they have the choice to make a fight of it if necessary.

I know. I'm preaching to the choir.

 

[weekendracer]

I wouldn't have a choice. I'm stuck on the third floor. All of us are sitting ducks until the shooter is neutralized.

I think about this sort of thing a lot. And that's the point I made just now: I have fewer options in my building than I do in the rest of the Commonwealth.

More to the point of what you're saying, yes... and there might be teachers caught in a school shooting who abandoned ship, but I'm not aware of any. Almost every time, these people (most of them antis) make the right choice and sacrifice themselves protecting their kids. I don't think they're cowards. I'd just rather they have the choice to make a fight of it if necessary.

I know. I'm preaching to the choir.

I know. I read the account of the PE teacher going after one of the shooters (maybe the Florida one) bare handed, never really had a chance. Sitting here, all comfy, I could say 'Hey, wait for him to reload, then charge him'. Sounds like good advice, again, sitting here, but in the moment, he did what his instincts told him to do.

Take THAT dude, give him 8 hours of training, give him a firearm, let's see how that shooting would have turned out. Some kids still would have died, but no where near as many. Sadly, he's a martyr.

When I was substituting, I scouted every classroom I was in. What could I use if I had to. I was wondering if during an adrenaline dump if I could rip off the cutting part of those mass paper cutters most teachers had in their room.

 

[Picton]

I know. I read the account of the PE teacher going after one of the shooters (maybe the Florida one) bare handed, never really had a chance. Sitting here, all comfy, I could say 'Hey, wait for him to reload, then charge him'. Sounds like good advice, again, sitting here, but in the moment, he did what his instincts told him to do.

Take THAT dude, give him 8 hours of training, give him a firearm, let's see how that shooting would have turned out. Some kids still would have died, but no where near as many. Sadly, he's a martyr.

When I was substituting, I scouted every classroom I was in. What could I use if I had to. I was wondering if during an adrenaline dump if I could rip off the cutting part of those mass paper cutters most teachers had in their room.
View attachment 652492

Honestly? In that case? You're better off flinging the whole paper cutter toward his head, then charging him when he ducks it. But if he's made it into your classroom in the first place, you're already in deep doo-doo.

Like I said, I think about this sort of thing a lot.