Generator Fuel Types; Your opinions?

Turbocharged

Turbocharged

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Fairly soon we will be buying a back-up generator for the house. It will be a hard-mounted generator wired into an automatic switch.

-Gasoline is out; too pricy and goes bad after sitting for a while.
-Diesel is an option, but has similer problems to Gasoline.
-LP - Liquid Propane; it seems like the best choice, but I don't have any expieriance with Propane or Propane engines/generators.
-Heating oil; my cousin mentioned this, I think it is a very stupid idea to use your heating oil to run a generator to get power to run the furnace which uses heating oil
-NG - Natural gas; not available in my area.

Any other suggestions?

Voice your opinion and explain your reasons if you can/want.

Thanks!
 
isnt off road diesel and home heating oil basically the same product without the red dye. In the winter I think they add some stuff to make if flow better.
 
jenlynn724 said:
In a pinch heating oil will probably be what you have the most of. Heating oil is Diesel..
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What she said. It's good to have a reserve tank plus it's easy to get someone to come fill it.

My sister is having LP installed and it seems like the tank their installing is half the cost of the generator.
 
If you have a natural gas line and you think the supply is stable, that is the best one.

I have 2 gasoline ones, a little one that burns 2 gallons of gas a day, thay will run heat, lights, and the fridge, and a bigger one that burns a gallon an hour that I need to run the well pump, but can power the rest of the house.

My panel is set up to run either generator, but I can only power 4 circuits off the small generator, and all 10 on the big one.

I keep approx 20 gallons of fuel here, I rotate 5 gallons a month by way of the lawn mower, weed wacker, snow blower, and I pour the leftovers into the Kawasaki.

So out of cans I can go a good week before I have to go into the 10 gallons of gas in the bike tanks, or go into one of the 5 cars I have here to siphon fuel.

I couldn't keep up and running that long on my only alternative fuel source, and that would be to install a propane tank. And I wouldn't want to raid the diesel supply, also known as #2 fuel oil to run generators.
 
I wouldn't want to rely on a gas utility line, esp. in a SHTF scenario.

Our fire station is being rebuilt and upgraded now. We have installed a propane-fueled generator with a big tank. The fuel's stability was the prime selling point.
 
Voice your opinion and explain your reasons if you can/want.
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+3 DIESEL
It could be difficult to aquire or take delivery of propane in large volumes in MAJOR SHTF.A diesel unit can run on home heating fuel,marine diesel,kerosine,cookin oil,fuel syphoned from big rigs const equipt etc.Most of the masses will be competing for gasoline,As a whole diesel consumtion is relitively low for transportation,your biggest competion for fuel will be the military as most of their equiptment is diesel & for good reason.It is NON-EXPLOSIVE unlike gasoline or propane.It is as easy to transport as any liquid.There are some extreme cold weather concerns but aditives can ward off water & gelling issues.I suppose you could install big expensive propane tanks & get home delivery via delivery truck.Insurance Co.s tend to frown on volume propane storage,and all that is gas related.
( I have heard alot about this as a local police officers home had a LP gas related explosion a few months ago, it leveled the house & damaged a 1/2dozen others)
I always have some full tanks on hand,nothin' worse than running out at the big BBQ w/ a yard full of guests, but i'm leaving the big propane issues to Hank Hill.
Diesels my choice,but to each his own.

some benifts of DIESEL Generators
1/2 Fuel Consumption of Gas
Many Times More Engine Life
Unparalleled Reliability - No Ignition
Better Size & Weight Than Similar Gas Engines
No Evaporating Fuel or Carburetor Gumming
Effortless Starting ( Electric or Hand Recoil on smaller units)
Long Term Fuel Storage O.K. ( 5 + years or More)
Non Explosive Fuel = Better Insurance Rates
Inclined Operation O.K. ( No carburetor Floats )
Counter Balanced Engines-Diesels are Smoothest
Re buildable Engine Format ( Inexpensive )
Latest in New Engine Technology ( No Tune ups )
Much Simpler Maintenance
 
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Also FYCI,Home Heating fuel & Diesel are compatible.
One has dye & one has detergent but WSHTF who gives a F*ck! [smile]
 
glostamon said:
+3 DIESEL
It could be difficult to aquire or take delivery of propane in large volumes in MAJOR SHTF.A diesel unit can run on home heating fuel,marine diesel,kerosine,cookin oil,fuel syphoned from big rigs const equipt etc.Most of the masses will be competing for gasoline,As a whole diesel consumtion is relitively low for transportation,your biggest competion for fuel will be the military as most of their equiptment is diesel & for good reason.It is NON-EXPLOSIVE unlike gasoline or propane.It is as easy to transport as any liquid.There are some extreme cold weather concerns but aditives can ward off water & gelling issues.I suppose you could install big expensive propane tanks & get home delivery via delivery truck.Insurance Co.s tend to frown on volume propane storage,and all that is gas related.
( I have heard alot about this as a local police officers home had a LP gas related explosion a few months ago, it leveled the house & damaged a 1/2dozen others)
I always have some full tanks on hand,nothin' worse than running out at the big BBQ w/ a yard full of guests, but i'm leaving the big propane issues to Hank Hill.
Diesels my choice,but to each his own.

some benifts of DIESEL Generators
1/2 Fuel Consumption of Gas
Many Times More Engine Life
Unparalleled Reliability - No Ignition
Better Size & Weight Than Similar Gas Engines
No Evaporating Fuel or Carburetor Gumming
Effortless Starting ( Electric or Hand Recoil on smaller units)
Long Term Fuel Storage O.K. ( 5 + years or More)
Non Explosive Fuel = Better Insurance Rates
Inclined Operation O.K. ( No carburetor Floats )
Counter Balanced Engines-Diesels are Smoothest
Re buildable Engine Format ( Inexpensive )
Latest in New Engine Technology ( No Tune ups )
Much Simpler Maintenance
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I'm just playing devils advocate here, but in a situation like we had last December the LAST kind of generator I would want is a diesel. They don't start too easily in the cold, and an automatic back-up diesel generator would take a couple minutes to start (block heater would have to warm it up to the point that the glowplugs could get the fuel to burn). And god help you if you run it dry (it is not fun to get an engine that was run completely out of fuel started again).
And diesel fuel also has a shelf life.

I know I started the thread as a place to post opinions, but I have concerns about a diesel generator that glostamon might be able to address.
 
Personally generators are a short term solution, short term natural disaster. Since you are looking at something automatic, if you have propane go with that, home heating oil go with diesal. Both will need to kick on every month or so to keep fresh fuel in the lines, moisture out of the cylinders, oil ect.

If you are ging to have to buy a big stationary generator and 120 gallon propane tank why not just get a solar/wind setup with batteries? More money but it at least helps pay for itself.
 
Heating oil; my cousin mentioned this, I think it is a very stupid idea to use your heating oil to run a generator to get power to run the furnace which uses heating oil
Click to expand...

I'd listen to the cousin,but if monies no object go hi-end w/propane.
Real large above ground tanks can be a pain in the neck w/ permiting & homeowners insurance aswell as residential zoning,underground tanks is a whole nother can o' worms.

Theres the week long power outage due to ice storm scenerio.
Aswell as the long term major SHTF no powergrid possibility.
Longterm propane deliveries are out when infrastructure fails for extended peroids.
Many homes heat w/oil, alot of those residential tanks in suburbia could be a potential fuel source.[wink].....I let my paranoia dictate my purchases![laugh]
 
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A friend of mine is an electrical engineer with a company that does backup power, solar, wind, etc. for companies, embassys, hospitals, etc.

His take on a generator is to keep it small and have multiples if you need varying power demands. If you can't load it at least 50% and preferably 80%, you'll actually do harm to the generator. In fact, in most of the multi-source backup systems he's designed, the solar, wind, etc. is disconnected if the demand drops too low just to keep the load on the generator if it is running.

So, if you do get that "whole house" setup, the last thing you want to do is 'conserve' with it running. Keep a load. I'm not sure if this applies to the new inverter styles as they can regulate the load on the generator based on the load of the inverter, but most larger generators are not of this style.

With the gas generator, your best operation is not to run it continually, but run it only to power what needs to be powered. For most homes, that would be a short run every 4 hours or so to allow the heat, water, and fridge to recover. As soon as the demand is over, shut it down again. In fact, better to power a few things at a time with a smaller generator switching loads in and out as needed, than getting one to handle the entire load at once.

Also, change the lubricating oil often and use an oil designed for long storage like synthetic motorcycle oil or tractor oils. These leave a film on engine parts better than modern 'fuel efficient' motor oils do. This will help prevent any internal corrosion. Why change it often? Because of the nature of the generator run cycle, (rare and short) acids tend to build up in the oil. Many 'storage' oils contain additives to fight the acids too, but it is still better to change it.

Also, be sure to mix any fuel with some kind of stabilizer regardless of how short a storage time you think you'll have. I simply make it a habit of always mixing the fuel I get regardless of where I think it will be used so that every one of my small engines always has storable fuel. If you get Stabil in the quart size, it lasts a while. There are similar products for diesel. I use an Amsoil Product called "Fuel Extender" in my oil tank to keep the oil 'fresh' as we only get topped off four times a year and usually it's not that low when it is topped off.
 
The other thing you have to do if you are running in 220V mode on a large generator to feed both sides of a transfer panel is to balance out the load so both legs are pulling pretty much the same amount of power. Failure to balance the load can do a number on the generator.

+1 on oil, my honda inverter has a short oil change interval, I want to say 20 hours, but I can change it in about 5 minutes. The thing that really sucks is a 100 hour valve service interval, but I really doubt I'll ever have to worry about it. I don't know what the service interval on the 5KW unit is yet, I don't have 2 hours on it yet.

A good transfer panel will have built in meters to show the draw, but you need to figure out your load balancing before doing the install.

As I said before, my little Honda 2000 watt inverter sips fuel and runs everything I really need to be comfy EXCEPT my well pump. I do keep enough water on hand in gallon containers to use for drinking and cooking for a week, I rotate the stock to keep it fresh. I can take water from the hot tub for bathing and flushing toilets. The 5000 watt generator is just for pure comfort, like having the well, outside lighting, garage door openers, coffee pot, and other kitchen essentials.
 
Propane is one of the best options, but you need bigass tanks installed and it is very expensive to fill those bigass tanks, and the output per $ is far worse
than it is with Gasoline. The one advantage is propane does not get old, so as long as your tanks don't leak, you're good to go.

I would go with Diesel or Gasoline with a rotating fuel supply. .

Diesel is not as bad as you're making it out to be, either. The fuel will store way longer than gasoline. Modern diesels also start pretty well even in moderate
cold.

Also be aware by doing the "gigantic generator" thing it's not exactly the most efficient option. It's cheaper fuel wise to run the piddly crap off a small genset (say a 2-3KW unit) and then only fire up the huge genset when you need to handle large loads- heating, well pumps, washer/dryer, etc.

-Mike
 
Propane. By far the best option out there in terms of storage life and reliability. A back up generator usually sits so long, if its got its own fuel tank your gonna end up having really bad fuel by the time you use it, especially if its stored outside. Change in temperature and humidity lead to all kinds of problems. If you have the money to spend on a new setup I strongly suggest propane, they run for ever without needing cleaning, new spark plugs and without the hassle of frozen lines, water in the fuel etc...etc.. Plus its real easy to get more propane, even if you have to drive distance to get it, or you keep and extra 20 or 50 pound tank lying around, it never goes bad. It is not much more expensive to run, a smaller unit with a storage battery would be your best option. Unlike gas/diesel, you wont run into problems if your generator cycles more often, no need to run at throttle and waste all the extra fuel and electrical output.
 
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Hmm, I am seriosly leaning twards a propane generator.
I know there is a lot of support for diesel, but it just doesn't seem to suit my needs. I have no intention of traveling with it, I have a smaller gasoline generator for that. I'm looking for a convienient setup, one that starts on it's own.
I can't afford to cycle gasoline or diesel (I only have a push mower and other small yard tool, I don't use much gas).

Thanks for all the input, this thread can definitely help people in the market for a generator.
 
I also think propane is the best option for what you can do.

i would guesstimate your need based on how long you think you might
need a 2nd source of power. What has been the longest time your area
has had a need for a 2 source and seek professional advice. You can
spend more money and time without it.

JimB
 
Where I live natural gas is piped almost universally.

My heater, stove, and water heater all run on it and the line is easily accessible in the basement. So when the time comes to set up a permanent generator, NG is what it will be fueled with.

I have lived here for five years and have had a couple power outtages, including a three day outtage when hurricane Ike came up this way almost exactly a year ago. In that time I have lost gas line pressure exactly zero times.

I also lived in Kansas, where natural gas is also the heating fuel of choice, for almost nine years and never, ever, had a gas interruption.

My biggest concern is loss of heat during the winter. No electricity, no furnance fan.
 
B1511 said:
I would suggest propane and you can have a massive tank installed underground out of site.
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The only thing that ever bothered me regarding propane as a fuel source at a bad time, is that it has a specific gravity greater than 1.0. At least NG has a specific gravity less than 1 and is therefore lighter than air. I am probably somewhat biased due to all my years in public safety, but propane has the nasty habit of clinging to, and working its way through, the ground in the event of a leak. NG, on the other hand, will rise. This results in earlier detection and, in the case of equipment such as this that is placed outdoors, leakage is more apt to simply vent to the open air and dissipate. I know there have been some documented examples of house explosions with NG also, but from my experience, I'd rather be faced with resolving a NG leak with this type of equipment than resolving a propane leak in the same circumstances. But, that's me.
 
I've seen several set ups with propane. the last one i saw the generator
was in the garage and 2 propane tanks were approx. 10 ft away behind the garage.

the owner said it work very well.

i wouldn't be in favor of burying any fuel tanks of any kind.


JimB
 
n1oty said:
The only thing that ever bothered me regarding propane as a fuel source at a bad time, is that it has a specific gravity greater than 1.0. At least NG has a specific gravity less than 1 and is therefore lighter than air. I am probably somewhat biased due to all my years in public safety, but propane has the nasty habit of clinging to, and working its way through, the ground in the event of a leak. NG, on the other hand, will rise. This results in earlier detection and, in the case of equipment such as this that is placed outdoors, leakage is more apt to simply vent to the open air and dissipate. I know there have been some documented examples of house explosions with NG also, but from my experience, I'd rather be faced with resolving a NG leak with this type of equipment than resolving a propane leak in the same circumstances. But, that's me.
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Good point I will have to do a little reading on the subject. Has anyone done any research on how to silence a generator running underground. I would assume post SHTF that you are not going to want to have a loud generator calling out to anyone within hearing distance.
 
B1511 said:
Good point I will have to do a little reading on the subject. Has anyone done any research on how to silence a generator running underground. I would assume post SHTF that you are not going to want to have a loud generator calling out to anyone within hearing distance.
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Running a generator underground would be great for noise levels, but logistically not very easy.

I'm not sure how much extra silencing is necessary for some of the newer generators, even non-propane/NG generators. Most of my experience with generators has been older stuff that's been ear-blisteringly loud. I watched someone fire up one of the newer Honda EU series generators around 6kw or so last week, and it was QUIET. It was mounted on the front of the hot dog truck in Elm Park in Worcester, and standing 100 yards away, I could barely hear it. Standing right next to it, it was actually quieter than an idling car.

I'm looking at the possibility of picking up one of the 2KW tri-fuel ones because they're easily moved and run on gas, NG, or Propane, and then getting a 6KW slow speed diesel for running the well pump, powervent, compressor, etc.
 
B1511,

I wouldn't try burying the generator underground. I would recommend constructing an out-building to house the generator. The generator will be burning fuel, so it will need air flow.

If you build the out-building with sound insulation in mind, you can make it VERY quite. One way to really deaden noise is to use an off-set stud technique. Use 2x4's for the bottom and top of the walls, then use 2x3's for the studs (this will require 2x the number of studs) set one row of studs (if it's an out building you can do 24" on center) flush with the outside edge of the 2x4 and a second set of studs (12" from the prior set) flush with the inside edge of the 2x4. This will give you approximately 1" air-gap between the out-side studs and the interior wall and 1" air-gap between the inside sides and the outside wall. This air-gap will absorb HUGE amounts for noise.

A drop ceiling of accustic titles will absorb noise going up to the roof.

For the floor, gap the floor boards 1" appart to provide plenty of low-level air-flow. If you're really concerned about noise, set a second set of "floor boards" to the bottom of the joists also spaced 1" by aligned with the gaps in the top boards. This will give lots of air flow but break-up noise.

Alternately you can seal the floor up tight (better noise reduction) and use flexible ducting (like a flex-hose for a drier vent) for the generator intake. The flex hose doesn't conduct noise easily.
 
BTW,

The off-set stud technique with 2x3 studs and a 2x6 footer and header board spaced 16" on center make for an extremely efficient and very quiet exterior wall deisgn when packed with fiberglass blanket from both sides (no continuous stud to conduct heat or sound from inside wall to outside wall) though you'll want to run it buy the local building inspector to make sure he's not going to reject it as "no upto code"

I'd love to build a house with 8" thick walls using an offset 2x4" technique, which would provide much, much better insulation than most New England homes, but I'm a crazy engineer guy.
 
Anything but gasoline

If you are on city gas (NG) you can get a dual-fuel generator, readily convertible to propane. If I could get town gas where I am, this is what I would choose.

All but the cheapest portable diesel generators include 12V motorcycle battery with pre-heat, and you could always use a mini block heater to keep it toasty. Even without a block heater, my little Aurora "Silent Diesel" only ever has trouble starting when I have battery problems.

garandman said:
Anyone using one of the Yanmar single cylinder diesel generators?
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My Aurora is a clone of a Yanmar, like the one linked above it runs at 3600RPM; I am now looking at 1800RPM models, less portable (more mass) but also more efficient and the engine and alternator have a longer lifespan.
what about fuel consumption compared to a gas generator of the same size?
Click to expand...
Compared to gasoline, a diesel running at half load (or higher) is much more efficient than a similar output gasoline generator at the same load; vendors claim "up to 40% less fuel consumption".
 
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