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Getting my first AR- a couple of questions

ZainAnak

ZainAnak

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Hey everybody. So after talking with a lot of people, shooting a good number of AR's, going to matches, and checking out Four Seasons, I think I've decided on a Bushmaster Varminter for competition...

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/lr-24v.asp

Yes, yes, I know I *should* start off with a service class AR, but I like the look and feel of these MUCH much more :)

So I have a couple of questions...

1) I want to learn good iron sight skills, and will likely be pairing this rifle with some combination of the following types of sights:

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/bmas/yhm-643k.asp
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/uppers/9349063-9.asp
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/bmas/yhm-9360k.asp

Do you know where I can buy these types, and would you recommend any particular type or brand of front sight and rear sight?

2) Along those same lines, Four Seasons seemed pretty limited in competition accessories (no carry handles, no gloves, no matts, very few slings, etc.) Do you know of any other shops in the area with a better selection for the competitive shooter?

3) After shooting a few AR's, I fell in love with the configuration of 0.056" front post, 0.042" rear aperture. After I find good sights for my AR, how do I go about buying these sized pieces for them?

3) Does anyone out there own this model? I'd love to chat with you about it before I buy.

Thanks all, and I hope to see you out there soon on the lines!
 
For the accessories, I've gotten most of mine from Creedmore(glove, mat, coat), Ray-Vin(scope stand, range cart) and Turner Slings online.

The front post will be easy to switch once you have the rifle and whichever front sight you'll be using, as long as it uses standard posts. To change the rear aperture, you'll need to change the flip sight to something like this:
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/dcm/cgf40.asp
and get the size aperture you want.

Both of the rear sights you're looking at will limit your adjustble range compared to the standard A2.

I have the Bushmaster DCM which I've been very happy with. Same general components as the Varminter but Service Rifle legal. You will be putting yourself at a disadvantage using the config you're looking at since you'll be shooting in match class against people using globe type sights instead of rear aperture & front post.

Derek or Tony should be able to give you some more info.
 
As far as limiting my adjustable range, this carry-handle rear says it has an A2-rear sight...

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/uppers/9349063-9.asp

So wouldn't that be the same?

As far as a disadvantage over match rifles with globe sights- eh, I'm not too worried- I'm not getting super serious about it yet, and if I do, I can always buy globe sights and switch them out.

Keep those answers coming, everyone. I really appreciate your advice!
 
Zain,

I have to say that I don't believe you'll be happy with that rifle if you plan to compete. That is not set up to be a competition rifle. It's meant to scope and prarie dog hunt. A detachable carry handle will do you no good as you can't shoot the rifle in service rifle matches and even the best match rifle sights will not compensate for the barrel.

I suggest you get either a dedicated service rifle or spend the money for a match rifle. And, I certainly would not suggest that your first experience in match shooting be in the 'Match' class.

Just my opinion. I'd hate to see you spend that much dough and be frustrated. You obtain the equipment that you need for the intended purpose.
 
Tony, thanks for the advice. Perhaps then you can suggest a different path for me. Let me explain my situation...

I want to get into riflery for rifles' sake first, competition second. I love rifles and have been planning, once I had the income, to start collecting and using them.

Now I'm planning on purchasing rifle #1. I originaly wanted to buy a Savage .308, which I adore.

But here's the rub- I don't want to spend all the money on a rifle I'll only take out on the odd weekend for plinking. I want the drive, comraderie, and push to excel that competition provides, not to mention gaining the ability of using iron sights before I jump to scopes. As you might remember, I started on this forum asking broad questions about .308 bolts and whether or not I could compete with them.

So after learning about rifle matches, I started looking into AR's. Problem is, and this really is something I can't waiver on- I refuse to spend the money on a generic service AR. I think the look is too plain, I don't like the feel of the plastic handguard, and, between you and me, that path would be the biggest waste of money of all for me. Rememeber- it's rifles first, competition second for me. Thus I simply can't buy a rifle I don't enjoy, either aesthetically or operationally. Yes, I know match AR's and service AR's are the same mechanism, but I've fired ones like the Varminter and I prefer the feel of the grips, the guards, the trigger pull, everything.

So there's my conundrum. Savage .308, though inexpensive and lovely in my opinion, affords me no chance to learn iron sights, or to get better and stay active through competetion. The AR's I do like you guys tell me would be a waste of money, and the AR's I *should* be getting, well, I wouldn't spend $100 on, between you and me.

I figured at least with the varminter, I can always upgrade the sights to globes or whatnot if I do get serious. The barrel is the same one they sell for their match rifles:

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwvms20ah.asp

so I don't really follow how I would be at a disadvantage in that sense.

But, I really want to get your opinion on all of this, and what you'd recommend I do to shoot regularly, shoot with what I like, and get to be a good marksman while doing it. Perhaps there are other options I haven't considered (?)

Thanks,
Z
 
Z - I don't know how much more I can help you if you've already decided that don't like the 'look' of a service rifle AR. All of the objectives that you speak of that you want to do and learn, is exactly the role of the service rifle. There are many more opportunities to learn, shoot and compete with that service rifle than anything else. And, I guarantee you that the first time you shoot that rifle at 600 yards, you'll start to realize what it's all about.

I'm a practical shooter. Meaning, that I shoot what would be practical in the real world somewhere and someplace (rifle, handgun, and bolt guns). Therefore, I've no experience with the "space guns" used in the match class. They've no purpose except that.

If I can help you with anything, I will. If you want to prarie dog hunt, then get the rifle you mentioned. However, realize that you won't be able to compete with it, in any form.
 
Tony, thanks for the advice. I was wondering if you (or anyone else out there) knows what sets this apart from match rifles? It's labeled as a prarie dog gun, but from everything I can gather, it's just a Bushmaster match rifle with a fluted barrel and some removable raisers on the rails. If that's the case, wouldn't it be identical to a match rifle, as far as my competeability with it?
 
ZainAnak said:
Tony, thanks for the advice. I was wondering if you (or anyone else out there) knows what sets this apart from match rifles? It's labeled as a prarie dog gun, but from everything I can gather, it's just a Bushmaster match rifle with a fluted barrel and some removable raisers on the rails. If that's the case, wouldn't it be identical to a match rifle, as far as my competeability with it?
Click to expand...

The biggest thing is the rifle twist. It's made to shoot lighter weight bullets for small "game" and not the heavier bullets you need for competition from 300 to 600 yards with irons.
 
1:8, 1:7.7, 1:7. All of these are capable of stabilizing up to 80 grs. A 1:9 is iffy at 75 grs.

You'll get these twists' with a Bushmaster DCM or Rock River Match. Both, service rifle config's. The only way you can compete with a "match" rifle is build it and shell out a shit load of dough.
 
Cool. Switching gears for a second- is there any opportunity to shoot regularly with a bolt, like the Savage .308 I was interested in? I'm talking competition, not hunting.

Thanks
 
F - Class is the only way I know of. It's a relitively new class in NRA and hasn't caught on much, yet. You shoot along with service rifle but most don't have a handle on it yet.

My advice is to shoot service rifle and then apply it to your bolt rifle on your own.
 
Cool. There *is* a third option I've considered, but haven't given much thought to- getting an M1A, possibly used. If I understand correctly, they are easily considered service rifles. They use iron sights, and, I happen to like the way they look. But I've also heard everyone shoots AR today. Thoughts?
 
If you haven't tried shooting the M1A in .308, I suggest giving it a try. IMO no balance and too much recoil, especially in the rapid fires.
 
Recoil! Are we whining about recoil from a heavy .308? Personally I prefer the size hole they make when you really need it.

Some of us alte kochers also have fond memories of humping M14s around, even with the extra weight. I would have hated to have had to settle for Mattie Mattel when I absolutely, positively had to drop somebody before he could do something unpleasant. That's one reason I picked up that nice National Match M1A years ago.

Ken
 
Ken,

When you have to put 10 rounds in to a 10" circle from 300 meters fast with a mag change, the last thing you want is a lot of recoil. If I was sniping from 1K meters, a .308 would be my choice, but 20 shots standing with a M-14, and rapid fires, I'll pass. I'll shoot the 5.56 and beat every guy on the line that is shooting the .308.
 
Yeah, almost to echo what Tony was saying-

I personally prefer the feel of a 308. But for the application at hand- target shooting -I'm not too concerned over imparting the greatest kinetic energy to that poor piece of paper :) fast and on target, plink plink plink, goes the 5.56
 
So here's a question, both for you, Tony, and for anyone else out there. I'm beginning to understand the need for twists with certain bullet weights. Heavier bullet, needs more spin to stabilize, fly straight, etc.

What I don't understand is this- I had been looking at that Varminter, which has a 1 in 9, which is not adequate for competition. It's only good up to about 70 grains, and I know you guys shoot something in the 80s.

So far so good. What I don't understand is, why not shoot with 70 grain bullets? The reviews for that rifle call it a tactical tack driver- it apparently gets amazing accuracy-

http://www.gunblast.com/Bushmaster_Varminter.htm

So why not shoot with the bullets its meant to shoot? Prairie dogs are no different than paper- if it hits one dead on consistently, why not the other?

Bear in mind, I'm not being pigheaded about this particular rifle- I'm just trying to understand all this better so as to make the most well-informed decision possible when I do decide to buy.

Thanks all!
 
The heavier bullet will resist the effects of the wind better. When shooting at 300 yards & longer a light bullet will get blown around by lighter breezes and gusts.

CD
 
Exactly what cdkayak said. If you want to only shoot out to 300 meters 70 gr are fine. But when you get back to 600 and 1K you will want 80 gr. The wind will not push the round as much. You can shoot 70 gr at 600, with no wind you can shoot well, but if the wind picks up, it will blow you all over the target. Get a 1/7 or 1/8, that way you can shoot everything.
 
Got it. Thanks everyone!

If I wanted to piece one together, then, out of uppers and lowers, whom would you recommend for each piece?
 
Brent and I both have a White Oak Precision Upper and a Compass Lake engineering lower. The rifles will easily hold 1MOA or less. For $1300 you can basically have the best service rifle made.
 
I use a Rock River, off the shelf. Make sure you get the upper that has the float tube. Should run you about $850. About the same for Bushmaster DCM, I believe.
 
If you're interested in competing with a bolt gun, try looking at the IBS site below. They have a score shooting class called Hunter class. I'll warn you, to be competitive takes some serious bucks, Hi-Power is cheaper.

From what I saw of the AR's you were considering, I question if they're legal in some of the classes. If you like the M1A/M14, that would be my choice. I tend to shoot way better with my M14 than my AR, or an isued M16 for that matter.

http://www.international-benchrest.com/
 
The Bushmaster DCM will run you a little more than the Rock River, but you should be able to find one for about $950 - $1000. I haven't shot the RockRiver so I can't compare, but I've heard plenty of good feedback on them as well.

CD
 
Hey guys, I was recently talking with a guy at Bushmaster, and he told me that 80gr+ bullets have to be manually fed, since they won't fit in the standard mags. Yet every time I've been to a shoot around here in a match, people always use mags. Someone care to explain it to me?

Many thanks,
ZA
 
The 80gr bullets are usually only used for 600+ yard slow fire. These are manually fed one at a time anyway, although a magazine must be in the rifle.

The mags are loaded and used for the rapid fire stages at 200 & 300 yards; 2 rounds in the first mag & 8 in the second. 77gr and lower will fit into a magazine. I'm currently using 77gr across the board.

I've read that there are some customized mags that will allow use of 80gr bullets. But for slow fire stages each round must still be loaded manually according to the rules.

CD
 

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