Gold Or Silver

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After stocking up on firearms and ammo (I think I am all set there) 4 different calibers x 3k each and at least 3 diferent firearms for each cal. (not counting .22s), food and water are next on my list, the question I have is, what in other members opinions would be, after my food and water list is filled, would be benificial for me to stock up on, gold or silver ? I am leaning toward silver, I already have approx 10lbs of various old silver coins, and recently have been purchasing silver in 1oz boullion denominations, only because I get a lot more product for the price. And the fluctuating price of gold, I have read that coins are better, caus people will realize that old coins problebly are real, as opposed to boullion which a lot of people may not reconize as being silver. I also have a book that gives info on various silver content in several commen coins, as well as a digital scale for weighing coins boullion ect. I am aware that lead will be the most benificial metal, but for circumstances that may and will arise (in my opinion) precious metals may be a prudent commodity to have. Any input would be appreciated. D. Also please forgive my spelling.
 
I like silver better (particularly 'junk' silver US coins). Of course that might just be 'cause I used to collect coins as a kid, so I find the sheer volume more fun to poke around with :) Fairly often turn up scarce dates/mints/varieties in the junk silver bags - turn around and sell 'em on fleabay.
 
I'd agree that silver is better in terms of spending or trading. Once you have a decent stockpile of it, you may want to get some gold just for portability. While you can't necessarily spend an ounce of gold in a barter transaction, you have to figure there will be some kind of banking system that will let you exchange gold for silver if you need spending money.

Say you decide to put away $50K in PMs. That would be over 100 lbs of silver right now vs. 2 lbs of gold.

I won't be there for a while, but my plan is to start buying some gold once my silver reserves get too heavy to easily transport.
 
Try getting change when you buy a 5lb bag of rice with a 1 ounce gold coin.

That's why there are fractional gold coins in weights less than one ounce.

Silver is probably the best metal for simple staples, and I would recommend coin as opposed to bullion. I have both. But when I can "afford" it, I usually spring for silver coins, specifically Canadian Silver Maples and American Silver Eagles.
 
That's why there are fractional gold coins in weights less than one ounce.

Silver is probably the best metal for simple staples, and I would recommend coin as opposed to bullion. I have both. But when I can "afford" it, I usually spring for silver coins, specifically Canadian Silver Maples and American Silver Eagles.

If the coins have a face value printed on them, do the banks have to give you their PM value, or only their face value?
 
If the coins have a face value printed on them, do the banks have to give you their PM value, or only their face value?

Definitely PM value. Silver eagles are marked as $1 coins, but they are also inscribed with 1 troy ounce .999 (or whatever) silver. I haven't seen one in the flesh, but I believe that gold eagles are either $5 or $20 (Edit - it's really $50) denominations, but they are worth an ounce of gold.

I'm not sure that banks HAVE to accept any PMs. And if they do, if they may just pay spot prices only.
 
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Definitely PM value. Silver eagles are marked as $1 coins, but they are also inscribed with 1 troy ounce .999 (or whatever) silver. I haven't seen one in the flesh, but I believe that gold eagles are either $5 or $20 (Edit - it's really $50) denominations, but they are worth an ounce of gold.

I'm not sure that banks HAVE to accept any PMs. And if they do, if they may just pay spot prices only.

I am concerned. If I take my Morgan Silver dollar to the bank, won't they gladly take it and give me $1 in paper money? What about pre-1964 quarters. $0.25 each from the bank, I'll bet. Why would the Eagles garner more than their $5/$20 face value from the banks? We all know which side the banks are on.......their own.

Krugerrands have no face value on them. They just provide the purity of gold they are made of. Would the banks pay out the going spot PM value?

This has been bothering me for some time. Any help would be appreciated. Any financial/banking experts out there?
 
Well, I don't think that a bank is the place to go to buy or sell PM's in most cases. Similarly, I wouldn't encourage you to try to 'spend' a silver eagle, even if someone was willing to take them as dollars.

You are buying them for investment, diversification, as alternative currency, and/or a physical store of wealth. consequently, you should deal with a broker/dealer who understands the items in question, their value, and how they trade. This likely makes them less liquid in the sense that there isn't a dealer on every street corner, but it does give you physical possession of the metals.

This doesn't answer your question authoritatively, so my suggestion would be to go to a couple of local bank branches and ask them what they would do if you brought silver or gold in for trade.

To the OP, I'd recommend silver eagles and/or maple leafs, and maybe some junk silver if you lean towards prepping rather than simply investing. Gold is good for concentrating large amounts of portable wealth, but in most scenarios you would need someone who could exchange it for usable currency at some point. Fractional coins are ok, but the premium per ounce is a lot higher than for 1 oz eagles. My .02.
 
Well, I don't think that a bank is the place to go to buy or sell PM's in most cases. Similarly, I wouldn't encourage you to try to 'spend' a silver eagle, even if someone was willing to take them as dollars.

True. The only way most "banks" will do it is if the teller tries a private transaction (and risks his/her job in the process).

Banks are obligated to treat US legal tender as such, and there is no "have to" regarding purchase of bullion coins for intrinsic value.
 
If you want to convert PM's into paper, the best way is through private sales. The least worst way is at your local family owned jewelry store, where you "may" get just under the average spot calculated over the last year or so. In this instance, you will fare better with foreign coin such as Krugerands because the jeweler may be less inhibited about melting it down to use for his craft.
If you are hoarding for an economic collapse, your best bet is coins from a recognized legitimate governing authority that have the weight and purity stamped on them. Imagine its 20 years in the future, and you are negotiating to buy land from a local warlord. People will remember that the US was once a big player in the world, and generally trust that the weight and purity of your coin are accurate. Bars and rounds that have the name of known refiners (Pamp Suisse, Engelhard) in addition to the weight and purity are a viable option, but not optimal.
Junk silver is ok for people who know its value, but I think it would be a long time after a collapse before it would be accepted for everyday trade. Try to explain to somebodytoday that pre-64 US coin was 90% silver, excluding 1 and 5 cent pieces, except during WW2 where nickles were 35% silver. You will see thier eyes glaze over with disinterest pretty damn quick. Then try to explain that $1 pieces continued to contain silver for a while after 1964.
I actually started fishing out all 1981 and earlier 1-cent pieces from my pocket change, as they are something like 90% copper. I think in the event of total breakdown, copper coin will be the backbone of every day commerce.
 
Wasn't there a case where the IRS lost the case against a guy who paid his employees in PM's - and claimed the transaction based on the US denomination of the coins....and the court told the Gov't they couldn't have it both ways - either the coins were equal to the value marked on them ( I.e. silver dollar = $1 USD) or they were worth the value of the PM....the end result was the coins were valued as marked, and the Guy won the case.

I think the info on this case is well suppressed, because the IRS and Gov't doesn't want the fact that they lost the case to get out...
 
Wasn't there a case where the IRS lost the case against a guy who paid his employees in PM's - and claimed the transaction based on the US denomination of the coins....and the court told the Gov't they couldn't have it both ways - either the coins were equal to the value marked on them ( I.e. silver dollar = $1 USD) or they were worth the value of the PM....the end result was the coins were valued as marked, and the Guy won the case.

I think the info on this case is well suppressed, because the IRS and Gov't doesn't want the fact that they lost the case to get out...

Sounds like the guy would have violated wage and hour laws based on that ruling.
 
Sounds like the guy would have violated wage and hour laws based on that ruling.

I think they were contractors...and they were happy with the deal.

I recall my B'in-Law telling me about a guy he knew...who also did contracting work, and demanded he be paid in PM's, and declared his pay as the face value...

maybe that is the loophole...

I'll try to find some links to this case....

anytime you can keep your hard earned money away from the Gov't waste machine, the better .......starve the cancer IMHO...



http://www.*********/news/9893062.html



************

OK -> found some info :

from this :

http://xmb.stuffucanuse.com/xmb/viewthread.php?tid=4498

Now this is a facinating way to get around the tax system that has worked.

You come and work for me and I pay you one gold coin a day / week / whatever. The face value of that gold coin is what you are paid. So a $20 gold coin (pictured below) might be your wage for 3 weeks, yet the real value of that coin is $800.

What do you pay tax on? The face value of the coin, so you pay tax on $20.

Apparently Robert Kahre paid numerous workers for their labor with circulating gold and silver U.S. coins, and did not report the wages. The payments took place over several years, allegedly totaling at least $114 million dollars.

He did not report their wages because the low face value of the coin put it below a taxable level. The nominal (i.e., face value) of the gold and silver coins is so small as to fall beneath the reporting thresholds set by the Internal Revenue Code.

Easy isn't it! Not only you get tax free income but your gold coins are appreciating in value!

So IRS took him to court and lost..

************

did some more research....looks like the Gov't took him to court again, and the 2nd time they won and he's going to jail...
 
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neither.

Think either shit you'll use eventually anyway, or shit that'll have immediate value post-shtf... ideally shit that meets both criteria. If you don't have this shit covered, you're either tying up valuable prep money or going to get yourself killed trying to barter it post-shtf.

Toilet paper
Soap
Toothpaste/Brushes
Box matches
Rubbing alcohol/hydrogen peroxide/iodine
duct tape/super glue
gardening supplies (land to start said garden and use said garden supplies?)
canner/jars/lids
Extra shoes (ones you'd wear eventually even if nothing went wrong, think sneakers/boots)
Your favorite hard alcohol
A wood stove
Hand tools
know-how book library

... you get the idea.

Shit you'll use eventually is an equal or greater hedge against inflation, as there's no loss coming off the top from buy/spot/sell pricing.
 
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In this instance, you will fare better with foreign coin such as Krugerands because the jeweler may be less inhibited about melting it down to use for his craft.

The Krugerand is a bad example for this, as the alloying gives the rand a unique copperish color, and small scale jewelers doing melt downs are probably not going to be refining. If a melt down buyer is important, Buffalos and Maples offer .999 fine gold without the alloy issue.

As to "small scale jeweler being the best" - questionable. It's rare (though possibly not unheard of) for a small jeweler to pay anything more than a substantial discount over spot, plus there is the issue of selling "investment quantities" (units in the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars) rather than a coin or two.

Also, with certain bullion coins, the market value is above spot, and the issue of concern is the buy/sell spread in percentage, not the amount below spot being paid.

Dabbling in a coin or three vs. making real "investment quantities" are entirely different beasts.
 
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