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Gregg Ellifritz on the perils of open carry

Over my many years of life, i have seen and experienced a few different CCW / OC incidents and a couple stand out in my mind,, 1980's Louisiana, Armored Car employee, both hands full of money bags. Ruger Super Blackhawk in a shoulder holster..... Me / mAss a few years later, Bonded courier delivering large amount of cash, plain clothes business suit, 1911 right hip under jacket, wind blows, weapon seen by employees, cops called, they surrounded the entrance while i was inside and ruined my suit when i went outside. While i agree with OC and that it needs to be seen more often, the libtards and sheep in this pisshole state will. Cry out in Fear , Call out the Kops, and Put you on Facefook and whatever local town gossip website you have. Paul.
 
weekendracer said:
1. Overt intimidation (officer presence)
2. Ease of access when 1. doesn't work out so well.
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Exactly......And I have every right and lawful authority to use the exact same deadly force to stop a felony in progress as they do. [thumbsup]
 
CRS_33 said:
My biggest concern with open carry is getting shot by cops.
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And that is a legitimate concern in many places.......cuz lots of cops think they are the only ones who should be carrying a gun openly in public.
 
Uzi2 said:
And that is a legitimate concern in many places.......cuz lots of cops think they are the only ones who should be carrying a gun openly in public.
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Or cuz they get the man with a gun call and something known only to them makes them fear for muh life
 
RE the article, there are perils with OC, but I'm not inclined to dictate to others how they should carry.

Also, "1) Open carry will cause hassles with other people and eventually the police." is a reprehensible, victim-blaming way to state others and LEOs _might_ hassle open carriers. I would instead place the blame with those with whom it actually lies.
 
I do not OC in MA (because MA) and haven't when in free states. The retention training topic was somthing I had not consdered.
 
I suppose I will weigh in.
In reference to the lady in the picture.
Reptile said:
Look at that woman...

What do you think a thug thinks when he sees her?

Walk up beside her and knock her out!!!

Free gun.

She wouldn't know what hit her.

If she CCW nobody would be the wiser and she would not be a huge target.

I see lots of very old people who are unsteady on their feet. For them to open carry with their fighting skills compromised - they are fools.
If CCW, it would be slower to draw but at least THEY would not be the primary target of some thug.
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Well, this was certainly my way of thinking for decade but perhaps the issue is not her....it is me, or us?

Let me explain.

I would not open carry in Mass but I will not always live in Mass. while taking her gun could arguably not be difficult, what if half the people in the store opened carried? Would people still regard it as odd? Would the police be less inclined to shoot first? Ever see a gun store robbed? How about an armed robbery at a gun range? Most likely not due to the certainty of a gun fight.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Is there any standard recognized retention level rating other than Safariland's marketing speak for its products?
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If someone said "retention level is just marketing speak that Safariland uses to sell products," I would be satisfied that he knew enough about holsters to make his own decisions. I might not agree with this opinion, but it is a valid point of view.

Let me give a little more context. I am a Range Safety Officer for my club, and I get lots of questions from relatively new shooters about topics other than range safety. Open carry is a topic that comes up occasionally, often from people who are interested, but have not really thought about the issue. I use the subject of police duty holsters to push them to do a bunch more reading before they make important decisions. I also bring up possible legal complications and giving up the element of surprise.

I don't tell people whether to open carry or not, I just want them to do enough research to make an informed decision.
 
I've lived in Utah for almost a year now, and have only seen somebody OC once (mid-20s kid waiting for a haircut at the Great Clips). I expected it to be much more prevalent here, particularly as far north in the state as I am.
 
I lived in Wyoming for four years. I saw a grand total of one open carrier, and he was on his own ranchland.
 
i checked under the bed. I checked in every drawer. Closet, cupboard, under the sink, in the shed, under the seats in my car, in between the sofa cushions and in the freezer.
Couldn't find a single fugg to give what Gregg Fritzyfritz thinks.
 
swatgig said:
I've defended enough people who got into a confrontation where the other party falsely claimed my client pointed the gun.

Don't let anyone know you are carrying until they hear the bang.
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This is the Rubicon for all gun owners who carry. While we would love to live in a world of criminal accountability, in the end it all comes down to the judge, the lawyers, and the jury. In today's society recognizing the social and legal realities of open carry seems a higher metric in terms of risk management. Given the absolute nature of OC, vs. the situational benefits of being the gray man concealed, it is losing the battle to influence positive public opinion in the wake of conformist mania. Ellifritz writes at the end "I support the right to carry openly. I don’t support the practice in general" - or as Sun Tzu would say "do not let pride get in the way of your goals." That goal is getting beyond Heller, not around it.
 
I look at it like a gun is a tool with an express purpose when I'm carrying.
To save my life when someone else might be trying to take it.
I carry it in a manor that gives me the greatest advantage towards it's use.
In my case I consider that to be the element of surprise.
It's not a fashion statement .
It's not a political statement.
I really don't GAF about tweaking liberals or trying to convert anyone.
I GAF about being the one standing when the dust settles.
 
Just look at the case of the idiot woman with her dog in central park and the black guy who she felt he was threatening her because he was black.

Now imagine if you are acting as peacefully as the black guy was but a Karen sees your gun and calls the police and says 'there is a white guy here with a gun threatening to kill me". Assuming no video, how do you think that is going to go down? To me, that is a good reason to keep the gun out of sight.

In a case I am familiar with in Boston suburb a mere "he showed me he had a gun" report from the person threatening to beat up the person with the gun was enough to warrant a gunpoint arrest, proned out - full felon treatment despite total lack of resistance, followed by court upheld LTC revocation after a trial at which the charges were dropped due to a lack of a witness - the assailant took the 5th because he had assault charges pending. If you don't have a badge, immunity or a visibly connected name the reaction will be "arrest and charge, let the courts sort this out". The police version of "kill em all, let God sort em out".
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Just look at the case of the idiot woman with her dog in central park and the black guy who she felt he was threatening her because he was black.

Now imagine if you are acting as peacefully as the black guy was but a Karen sees your gun and calls the police and says 'there is a white guy here with a gun threatening to kill me". Assuming no video, how do you think that is going to go down? To me, that is a good reason to keep the gun out of sight.

In a case I am familiar with in Boston suburb a mere "he showed me he had a gun" report from the person threatening to beat up the person with the gun was enough to warrant a gunpoint arrest, proned out - full felon treatment despite total lack of resistance, followed by court upheld LTC revocation after a trial at which the charges were dropped due to a lack of a witness - the assailant took the 5th because he had assault charges pending. If you don't have a badge, immunity or a visibly connected name the reaction will be "arrest and charge, let the courts sort this out". The police version of "kill em all, let God sort em out".
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If you live in MA maybe.....not KY. Two completely different planets.
 
Uzi2 said:
If you live in MA maybe.....not KY. Two completely different planets.
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Yup. A retired KY state trooper I know was very distraught when the Brady org gave his state a "F" on gun control when it had been an "F-" the previous year. It was like losing a Michelin star and told me that "I want our minus back".
 
1) Open carry will cause hassles with other people and eventually the police. Unless you live in rural area or a western state, open carry isn’t very common. When the uneducated populace sees someone carrying a gun (without a badge), they assume that a law is being broken.

So the person that did this write up is saying we all should get one of those "Carry Badges" ;):po_O NOT!!! Concealed-carry-permit-2nd-amendment-badge 1.jpg


Open Carry in MA is LEGAL, I don't recommend it though... Remember YOUR LTC is at the hast of your Chief... You get a call about carrying called in on you, say goodbye to your LTC and as said above the Law Suit that will come with that...

.
 
I always kind of figure most Ma$$holes just assume anyone open-carrying is a cop.

Not that I'm going to test it; I think OC is foolish, personally. But I bet a reasonably clean and decently dressed open carrier in MA would be mistaken for some sort of plainclothes LEO most of the time. I imagine it's completely unthinkable to a lot of people here that anyone but police are even allowed to carry, open or concealed.
 
1) Open carry will cause hassles with other people and eventually the police.

Firstly, stating it will cause hassle isn't true. Second, attributing the cause of the potential hassle to the open carrier and not the others is an absurd way to look at it. No, the others are the ones causing the problem, not the person open carrying. But to the point, that you may (not will) get hassled for open carrying, sure, that can be true.

2) Criminals may not be deterred by openly carried guns.

And they may not be deterred by conceal carried guns either. So this is not a reason to carry or not carry openly.

3) Getting your gun taken away is always possible.

Sure is. Depending on where you open carry, this may be the one valid point here. It can also apply with conceal carried guns, of course that will be less likely since, in general, people won't know you are carrying a gun to take away in the first place, which is the point here.

4) Most people who carry guns have crappy holsters and no weapon retention skills.

This isn't a reason to not open carry. It is a reason to get a good holster and have some training and skills with your system, which again, applies the same to conceal carrying.
 
Picton said:
I always kind of figure most Ma$$holes just assume anyone open-carrying is a cop.

Not that I'm going to test it; I think OC is foolish, personally. But I bet a reasonably clean and decently dressed open carrier in MA would be mistaken for some sort of plainclothes LEO most of the time. I imagine it's completely unthinkable to a lot of people here that anyone but police are even allowed to carry, open or concealed.
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I think a lot of people think that... I know myself if I see someone OCing I think that they are a LEO... Even with OC Legal in this Commywealth we know better, so if I see someone OCing I say to myself that they must be a LEO and I look for their badge... If I don't see one I just walk away :p ...
 
I don't really give a shit what anybody else does with their gun or with anything else they own and I assume most people feel the same. I occasionally open carry and as far as I could tell no one even batted an eye. I've never had a single person say a word about it. Now if I were going someplace where I knew it would cause a ruckus I wouldn't open carry.
 
KBCraig said:
If you ever find yourself in need to use your gun defensively, it's because you've already lost the element of surprise.
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I've been in several situations that have ended far better than they could have that don't bear that out .
I'll just leave it at that .
 

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