Gun Law and Boats

[boatman]

While I am a MA LTC A, this question pertains more to general law, but Mods, move to MA gun law if more appropriate...

I have a small cruising boat. Let's say I want to take this down the coast for the winter. Let's also say I would like to bring my rifle and handgun with me.

The boat will take 14 days to get down the coast, stopping at every state down the coast.

For some of the trip, the boat will be outside of coastal US territory (12 mile limit), but will be down the intra coastal canal for a lot of the trip.

I know that FOPA regulates how you carry thru the states in a car, so if this was a RV trip instead of boat, keeping them in a locked container etc. would work.

But what laws regulate carrying firearms on the water?

Thanks.

 

[Terminator03]

Excellent question that I haven't seen come up before. Hopefully someone will chime in with knowledge in this area, but off the top of my head, my main concern would be to check regulations with the USCG since they are essentially the "water police" and have jurisdiction. I would think there would be some info regarding the rules of transporting firearms on their site.

 

[WallHack]

This'd be the perfect excuse for you to buy that new 870 Marine Magnum I've had my eye on... wait what?

 

[boatman]

Excellent question that I haven't seen come up before. Hopefully someone will chime in with knowledge in this area, but off the top of my head, my main concern would be to check regulations with the USCG since they are essentially the "water police" and have jurisdiction. I would think there would be some info regarding the rules of transporting firearms on their site.

Actually, the waters here are regulated by Mass Environmental Police, I think the CG worries more about the bigger stuff these days? (though i do hear stories of the CG boarding small boats from time to time, and usually beating the crap out of the boats. I am a sailor, so usual speed is 5kts. First off, very hard to run away when you are moving slower than most people jog, and second, very hard to control your boat idling in the water so a much larger vessel can tie up on you without banging and clanging. Not to mention your rights!)

I thought one of our members used to work for MEP? Maybe he can clear this up?

 

[jjbff45]

State law is in effect within State controlled waters. Federal regulations start 3 miles off the coast.
Federal law states that as long as you have all legal permits from your boat port of call and you are in federal waters.

With that said if you get boarded by the Uscg just tell them you have it and where it is they will most likely thank you and unload it and take possession of it while they are on board and then return it when they leave ( at least this is my experience)

There is no finite law to follow as there are many overlapping laws (local, federal, army corp of engineers, ect...) keep it locked up and shouldn't be an issue if you get boarded

 

[jjbff45]

Actually, the waters here are regulated by Mass Environmental Police, I think the CG worries more about the bigger stuff these days? (though i do hear stories of the CG boarding small boats from time to time, and usually beating the crap out of the boats. I am a sailor, so usual speed is 5kts. First off, very hard to run away when you are moving slower than most people jog, and second, very hard to control your boat idling in the water so a much larger vessel can tie up on you without banging and clanging. Not to mention your rights!)

I thought one of our members used to work for MEP? Maybe he can clear this up?

I have been boarded close to once a year by the coast guard in Narragansett bay/Newport harbor. The Uscg does In fact board still, in fact I have been boarded more by Uscg than state poliec/dem/ep

 

[CoastieRon]

Are you going to be hitting the Intra-Coastal in New Jersey (Manasquan Inlet)? Be careful with their water patrol.

Honestly, if you aren't stupid on the water, you'll be fine. In general, if you are boarded by the CG, they will ask you if their are any weapons on board. Tell them the truth, tell them exactly where they are and they will usually just make them "safe", and go on with their inspection. If they run your name, and you're a PP, they will get locals involved.

It's the locals you have to be wary of. But if it's cold out, you usually won't see them.....

 

[bbarer]

I have been sailing all my life and have well over 100,000 offshore miles and have almost always had a firearm on board. It has also always been hidden away somewhere easily assessable if needed which it never was. Oddly enough in the past 35 years I have never been boarded by any regulatory agencies home or abroad...Hope I didn't just jinx myself....Off topic a little but it reminds me of an old episode of Sea Hunt ( I know my age is showing now!) When Mike Nelson (Lloyd Bridges) goes below to get his "shark rifle" to scare off some bad guys and he comes up with an M1 Garand!! definitely classic....

 

[boatman]

OK. I understand what happens if I am outside of coastal waters. However , lets say I am on inter coastal in MD (or wherever), I pull into a Marina for the night.

What are the laws for storing a weapon on the boat? Is is Federal transport storage law (locked box), or is it local storage law?

For that matter, what are the requirements for keeping a gun on the boat in MA. Is it the same as in my house, it needs a trigger lock?

 

[NeverMiss]

It's my understanding, that as long as the firearm stays on the boat while you are docked, and you don't take it with you when go on land, you are OK. At least that's what the CG guy told me...

Oh, and that 500 feet from Logan thing.

 

[boatman]

It's my understanding, that as long as the firearm stays on the boat while you are docked, and you don't take it with you when go on land, you are OK. At least that's what the CG guy told me...

Oh, and that 500 feet from Logan thing.

Right, but does that mean just leaving them out wherever you want, or they must be stored in accordance with the local state regs, e.g., if i docked my boat in MA, it would be with a trigger lock, etc.?

Where is Rob or LenS when you need them?;-)

 

[CMEBoston]

Actually, the waters here are regulated by Mass Environmental Police, I think the CG worries more about the bigger stuff these days? (though i do hear stories of the CG boarding small boats from time to time, and usually beating the crap out of the boats. I am a sailor, so usual speed is 5kts. First off, very hard to run away when you are moving slower than most people jog, and second, very hard to control your boat idling in the water so a much larger vessel can tie up on you without banging and clanging. Not to mention your rights!)

I thought one of our members used to work for MEP? Maybe he can clear this up?

Coast Guard has jurisdiction on any navigable waterway, state or federal, coastal or inland. they can board and search your vessel at any time for any reason, probable cause is not required, same with MEP. Guns must be stored IAW local and state laws. Dont stop in NJ or NY with a Handgun on board. if your in state waters, state laws apply, federal waters then it is FOIPA rules. you can carry concealed in Mass waters and bordering states waters. and I believe you can carry concealed in federal waters. IANAL but I log 400 hrs a year on my fishing boat easy, armed every time.

 

[Serapis]

I do not have answer, but things are WAY different when it comes to vessels. I feel so long as you registered where your vessel is registered than as long as it stays on the boat than you are fine. I could be wrong.

Just some FYI: When I was in the Navy we boarded ships all the time looking for drugs. Weapons were secured and crews were detained until our inspections where over. Granted we were in international waters, boarding vessels with the permission of that vessels flag country.

 

[AntiHippie]

State law is in effect within State controlled waters. Federal regulations start 3 miles off the coast.
Federal law states that as long as you have all legal permits from your boat port of call and you are in federal waters.

With that said if you get boarded by the Uscg just tell them you have it and where it is they will most likely thank you and unload it and take possession of it while they are on board and then return it when they leave ( at least this is my experience)

There is no finite law to follow as there are many overlapping laws (local, federal, army corp of engineers, ect...) keep it locked up and shouldn't be an issue if you get boarded

Not quite. Generally speaking, federal regulations start as soon as the vessel is on navigable waters of the U.S. And for a U.S. vessel, from there to a foreign nation's territorial water ('high seas'), as well.

I believe what you're getting at is state jurisdiction generally ENDS at 3nm.

Curious, what federal law have you found that requires a vessel or it's operator to have firearms permits from its last port of call?

 

[boatman]

So still not sure. Say I am on long island sound, I stop for the night in mystic CT. I leave the vessel, and go to dinner and leave my firearms on board. Am I subject to what laws to secure and store the weapons. Does it make a difference if I am on a mooring (and thereby on the water) or at a dock, which is actually touching land?

While I am sailing am I subject to different laws than docked or moored?

You would think this is spelled out somewhere, but I can't find official regulations...

 

[Kevski]

Captain phillips should have had somehing to shoot the pirates with

 

[CMEBoston]

So still not sure. Say I am on long island sound, I stop for the night in mystic CT. I leave the vessel, and go to dinner and leave my firearms on board. Am I subject to what laws to secure and store the weapons. Does it make a difference if I am on a mooring (and thereby on the water) or at a dock, which is actually touching land?

While I am sailing am I subject to different laws than docked or moored?

You would think this is spelled out somewhere, but I can't find official regulations...

You are bound by the state laws and for all intents and purposes your vessel is your car. So if you are in CT, and do not have carry permit, then the must be stored IAW ct storage laws, mooring or dock


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jjbff45]

No not a permit from its last port of call, the way it was explained to me by some coast guard officials is that as long as the owner of the vessel has a permit, or legally owns the weapons for the home state/port of the vessel then you should be good to go. Mind you this was explained in the context of personally owned boat not commercial or chartered.

 

[Terminator03]

So still not sure. Say I am on long island sound, I stop for the night in mystic CT. I leave the vessel, and go to dinner and leave my firearms on board. Am I subject to what laws to secure and store the weapons. Does it make a difference if I am on a mooring (and thereby on the water) or at a dock, which is actually touching land?

While I am sailing am I subject to different laws than docked or moored?

You would think this is spelled out somewhere, but I can't find official regulations...

You're right there should be official regulations somewhere, but from what I am gathering here the only real answer is "it depends...". If I'm understanding what you are asking, it sounds like you want to know if it's ok to just leave guns laying around wherever you want and unlocked. Basically, it appears that using common sense is really important here, where you would most likely be ok even if boarded as long as you are not a PP, are legal to own firearms and/or licensed where you are from, and keep your guns properly secured when you are not using them. I still say that the USCG is probably the single best source of info on this matter, so regardless of anyone's opinion on here, I would get clarification from them.

 

[jron]

Cant be near an airport! I believe the law is 100 yards away.

 

[Terminator03]

Cant be near an airport! I believe the law is 100 yards away.

Yeah, but I think that's only when you have one of those killy .50BMG rifles that can shoot down planes...

 

[AntiHippie]

You are bound by the state laws and for all intents and purposes your vessel is your car. So if you are in CT, and do not have carry permit, then the must be stored IAW ct storage laws, mooring or dock


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There you have it.

If you are in NY, you are subject to NY laws. If you are in NJ, you are subject to NJ laws. If you are in Idaho, you're subject to Idaho laws. If you are beyond 3nm from the baseline, you are no longer subject to state laws.

As far as federal laws and regulations pertaining to firearms onboard recreational vessels on a recreational voyage not involving foreign ports, they're pretty simple. Can't have guns if you're a prohibited person. Can't have regulated weapons unless you can produce a form 4. Simple, right?

And to echo what others have mentioned, if you are boarded by the USCG, don't lie about the presence of weapons. Why turn a 5 minute boarding into a 'we should probably figure out why these guys lied about having firearms onboard, and keep at this until we've verified none of them are prohibited persons, these firearms aren't stolen, and there's nothing nefarious going on here, because there sure as hell seems to be given the totality of the circumstances'. They ask about weapons to avoid any misunderstandings, not to go fishing.




Then again, I'm not a lawyer.

 

[thorin]

Cant be near an airport! I believe the law is 100 yards away.

Have any kind of citation for this? I'm curious because on the ground you are generally OK on an airport anywhere except for a sterile area (past tsa checkpoint) or a state law otherwise prohibiting possession. I know there is some state law specifically regarding KBOS and a 500 foot buffer zone.

 

[CTpatriot]

Pirates may be shot on sight.

 

[AntiHippie]

Have any kind of citation for this? I'm curious because on the ground you are generally OK on an airport anywhere except for a sterile area (past tsa checkpoint) or a state law otherwise prohibiting possession. I know there is some state law specifically regarding KBOS and a 500 foot buffer zone.

Check the LNM's for the Boston area. My educated guess is that it's enforced as a security zone.

 

[el duderino]

Excellent question that I haven't seen come up before. Hopefully someone will chime in with knowledge in this area, but off the top of my head, my main concern would be to check regulations with the USCG since they are essentially the "water police" and have jurisdiction. I would think there would be some info regarding the rules of transporting firearms on their site.

I know a few coasties and they honestly didnt give a shit if you were licensed or not, wasnt their problem, ill ask next time I see them if they even ran a check to see if they were federally prohibited before letting people go.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Right, but does that mean just leaving them out wherever you want, or they must be stored in accordance with the local state regs, e.g., if i docked my boat in MA, it would be with a trigger lock, etc.?

Where is Rob or LenS when you need them?;-)

When it is a subject that I know nothing about, I don't offer answers. I really know nothing of the laws on the water and thus it is best that I don't confuse the issue. Sorry.

 

[TUGINSTRUCTOR]

There you have it.

If you are in NY, you are subject to NY laws. If you are in NJ, you are subject to NJ laws. If you are in Idaho, you're subject to Idaho laws. If you are beyond 3nm from the baseline, you are no longer subject to state laws.

As far as federal laws and regulations pertaining to firearms onboard recreational vessels on a recreational voyage not involving foreign ports, they're pretty simple. Can't have guns if you're a prohibited person. Can't have regulated weapons unless you can produce a form 4. Simple, right?

And to echo what others have mentioned, if you are boarded by the USCG, don't lie about the presence of weapons. Why turn a 5 minute boarding into a 'we should probably figure out why these guys lied about having firearms onboard, and keep at this until we've verified none of them are prohibited persons, these firearms aren't stolen, and there's nothing nefarious going on here, because there sure as hell seems to be given the totality of the circumstances'. They ask about weapons to avoid any misunderstandings, not to go fishing.

Then again, I'm not a lawyer.

As a Maritime instructor I get this question often, and MConnelly2 has answered the OP's question correctly. I have also checked with USCG boarding officers and here is what they have said:

"All will be well as long as its not a federally regulated firearm with out proper federal paper work ATF form 5320.4 and 5320.20 if crossing state lines. Also that the owner or person in possession or said firearm is not a prohibited person under 18USC922/prohibited acts. The USCG does not enforce state laws alone they have officers from RISP/DEM or locals for RI and MSP/MEP or locals are with them then the state enforces MA/RI (or what ever state you are in) permits 3 miles and in."

Basically as you travel state to state by boat, it is the same as traveling by car, keep them locked up. I WOULD AVOID NEW YORK AND NEW JERSEY TERRITORIAL WATERS AT ALL COST, BASED ON THEIR HISTORY OF NAILING GUN OWNERS WHO SIMPLY TRAVEL THROUGH THEIR STATES IN THE NEW YORK CITY BOROUGHS. However if you hold a LTC in those states as you transit down the ICW (or "the ditch" as we sailors call it), then you can obviously CC even while underway within that states 3 mile limit. IF you get boarded as above, immediately notify the boarding officers you are CC and have the permit to do so. Don't surprise them or your face will become part of the deck, [sad2]

Going international by boat is a WHOLE DIFFERENT BALL OF WAX, so let's NOT even go there.

 

[Fixxah]

Google Overland Safety Systems. Pretty sure they'll work on water as well and owned by NES peeps.

-Proud to be dad every day, a licensed plumber most days, and wish I was a shoemaker on others.

 

[boatman]

TUG: Thanks for this info!. Actually wasn't intending on CC, but rather storing for the journey to have when I get to my destination. My concern is that states may have different wacky storage laws, e.g. in MA a rifle can be in a soft canvas case with the 2 zippers locked with a tiny luggage lock that can be ripped apart in like 3 seconds, but that is considered safe storage for a rifle in my vehicle. In another state that I am docked in, that might not be considered OK.

I was planning on keeping them in their cases stored under a berth for the journey, I figured on the off chance I was boarded by USCG I would tell them, but since they are Federal, my concern was more if I was boarded by the whatever state equivalent of MEP that has jurisdiction that I would be in violation of local storage laws.