Gun rental regulations.

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http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Apr11/0,4670,FiringRangeGuns,00.html

Gun Rentals Are Easy at Firing Ranges

Wednesday, April 11, 2007

By ADAM GORLICK, Associated Press Writer

WORCESTER, Mass. — The 35-year-old woman handled her 9 mm Glock with ease. For three straight days, she honed her aim and hit bull's-eye after bull's-eye from the firing line at the Boston Gun Range.

Then she put the gun to her head and killed herself.

Like countless others who have rented guns at ranges across the country, she did not have a firearm license. And as a convicted felon with a restraining order against her, she wouldn't have been able to get one.

Even in a state known for some of the nation's toughest gun control laws, unlicensed shooters in Massachusetts have to do little more than swear they are not criminals, drunk or mentally unstable to fire their choice of pistols or rifles.

While federal law requires background checks on anyone who wants to buy a gun, no such review is necessary for someone who wants to rent one at a shooting range.

"The rules are all up to the states," said Jim McNally, a spokesman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. "There is no federal regulation of ranges."

Many ranges have gun renters sign forms attesting to their clean backgrounds, but liars rarely face consequences. The ATF and local police chiefs may occasionally review the paperwork, but they are not required to. Some ranges shred the forms after a few days; others keep them for years.

A spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence said tighter shooting range regulations are not a high priority for the organization. And few people have brought as much attention to the issue as Worcester Police Chief Gary Gemme.

The chief is pushing for a city law requiring anyone who wants to rent a gun to have a firearm license. He said such a rule would weed out people with criminal backgrounds and mental illness, like the woman who committed suicide at the Boston Gun Range in Worcester last October. She was convicted in 1999 of passing a forged check. She also had a restraining order against her because of a domestic dispute, which also disqualified her from obtaining a firearm license.

"If you're going to shoot on a range with a rented gun, you should have your license," Gemme said. "That's the only way to know if a person has a clean background."

Gemme said the forms that unlicensed shooters fill out are useless because they are not routinely checked by state or federal authorities. Of the 367 customers who signed those forms at the Worcester range in January, 22 were felons, he said.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the National Association of Shooting Ranges do not keep statistics on shooting deaths at ranges.

More than half of the country's 32,000 suicides were committed with guns in 2004, the most recent year such statistics were compiled by the CDC.

Rick Patterson, executive director of the National Association of Shooting Ranges, said shooting-range suicides are rare.

"Ranges are the places where Americans can learn and practice firearm safety," he said. And renting a gun gives people a chance to make sure they are comfortable handling a firearm before they decide to buy one, he said.

The National Rifle Association referred questions about shooting ranges to Patterson's organization.

Range owners call suicides an unavoidable business risk, and there have been reports of them in Florida, Arizona, California and Washington in the past few years.

"All gun ranges have suicides as a possibility," said Bob Irwin, owner of the Gun Store in Las Vegas. "If they haven't had one, they're going to have one."

He said the three suicides at his range over the past 25 years "don't mean anything statistically," and said his employees turn people away if they seem drunk or otherwise problematic.

Barbara O'Connell said she does the same thing at the Marksman Pistol Institute, the range she owns in Tucson, Ariz., where a man shot himself with a rented 9 mm a few days before last Christmas.

"I've been in this business for about two years, and they say this happens every three or four years," O'Connell said.

Irwin and O'Connell said they realize some customers lie when they sign forms swearing they have no criminal history or mental illness. "Short of running fingerprint checks on everyone, what can we do," Irwin said. "We have tourists from all over the world come in here."

As a safeguard, Irwin and O'Connell said, they have employees watch customers while they shoot.

Owner Mark Tashjian said he follows a similar policy at the Boston Gun Range but allows some customers to be on the range alone if they look like competent shooters.

That was how he described the woman who committed suicide at his range. Police will not identify her because of the way she died, but Tashjian said she was an occasional customer who seemed happy when she came in. She was being watched by an employee but was sometimes left alone.

"We knew she was being safe, persistent and accurate," Tashjian said. "With a person like that, we give them a feeling of privacy. We might step off the range for a bite to eat."

John Rosenthal, founder of the Boston-based Stop Handgun Violence, said people should have a safe place to learn how to shoot. And he said making sure a person has a clean background won't guarantee safety on a range.

"You're never going to stop all the horrific things that happen with guns," he said.
 
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What is that law going to do to people who bring un-licensed friends to the range to shoot? Will we not be allowed to do that anymore?

Obviously the guys working the range and renting the guns I would think are licensed. Why can't they just have a supervised shooting session for un-licensed shooters?
 
I think they lied about their conviction status......otherwise I think they wouldn't have been allowed to rent a firearm.
 
I still don't get it

As far as I can read in the laws if my next door neighbor asks to go shooting with me and I let him use my gun, I've violated the law if he is a felon...period,
whether he told, didn't tell me or lied when I asked. I'm the one in trouble.

How come the same thing doesn't apply to range rentals???
 
You really know it's a [rolleyes] idea when a gun-grabber can't even get the Brady Campaign and John Rosenthal to support his cause.
 
I've been to the Boston Gun Range before; took my firearms safety course there and was a member before they moved locations a few years ago.

There's a form they make you fill out before you set foot on the range, even if you have an FID or LTC. It asks for your name, address, and something to the effect of are you prohibited from handling a firearm. I don't remember the exact wording on the form. They have no way of doing any kind of instant background check, so they take people at their word. They hold the forms for a period of time, and the police would come in occasionally to review them. They've actually busted people for using the range when they shouldn't be legally handling firearms. But to the best of my knowledge, the police never took action against the BGR until the suicide.

The police were all very plainly aware of the exact business practice going on at the range, with regard to types of targets used, range supervision and the general public being allowed to handle firearms without an individual license. This is all for show, and/or the Worcester police chief is incompotent.

The BGR is a public range, not a private club. I'm no expert, but I would think that what happens at a private club and what happens at a public range are two different things. Also, the S&W shooting center in Springfield is a public range that has similar rules for use like the BGR.
 
Even in a state known for some of the nation's toughest gun control laws, unlicensed shooters in Massachusetts have to do little more than swear they are not criminals, drunk or mentally unstable to fire their choice of pistols or rifles.

Now, lets turn the table a bit....

Even in a state known for some of the nation's toughest election laws, unlicensed politicians in Massachusetts have to do little more than swear they are not criminals, drunk or mentally unstable to run for their choice of office to further oppress the people of the state.
 
Even in a state known for some of the nation's toughest election laws, unlicensed politicians in Massachusetts have to do little more than swear they are not criminals, drunk or mentally unstable to run for their choice of office to further oppress the people of the state.

"Er-ah, I'm Ted Kennedy and I resemble that remahk"
 
I am not allowed to let a convicted felon use my gun right?

Then how come a convicted felon can rent one at a range?

I seriously don't understand


Correct me if I'm wrong, but, I believe you can let a convicted felon use your gun as long as said felon in under you direct supervision.

At least I hope so, because I've done it. Was I wrong?
 
Who said a convicted felon can't use a gun? They just can't get a license or purchase a firearm as far as I knew. And if there is a law about this, HOW would it be enforced?? Background check on anyone shooting with a licensed friend?
 
If someone did their time in jail, are they still a felon? Or are they a former felon? I don't (as far as I know) know any, but this seems like a strange situation.
 
Who said a convicted felon can't use a gun? They just can't get a license or purchase a firearm as far as I knew. And if there is a law about this, HOW would it be enforced?? Background check on anyone shooting with a licensed friend?

It is a Federal law, a felony, IIRC.

You are right about the enforcment, though... but it DOES get enforced from
time to time- mainly because the feds consider it a bandaid for piss poor
justice systems in states like MA... it sends the perp to club fed for awhile if
he is caught. Usually it is a tack on of some sort or another... eg, they'll
shake some guy down for a minor amount of drugs, find a gun, and then they
use the gun charge instead of the weak drug charge to send him to
jail for a lot longer.

There is also some enforcement via NICS, but it is pretty limited.... the problem
with NICS is due to the fact that it is extremely inaccurate and incomplete not
a lot of arrests come out of it... a lot of denials are "we kinda sorta think this guy
is not allowed to buy a gun but we're not 100% sure". I talked about this topic
with one FFL I deal with and he said that out of all the denials he's ever gotten
back, he's only had to send out paperwork once because the feds wanted to
arrest the guy.

-Mike
 
If you bring in a friend ..unlic. ..they shoot under your suppervise..and yur lic.

Problem is BGR is not suppose to let you do this...from what has been said by gemme

What is that law going to do to people who bring un-licensed friends to the range to shoot? Will we not be allowed to do that anymore?

Obviously the guys working the range and renting the guns I would think are licensed. Why can't they just have a supervised shooting session for un-licensed shooters?
 
If someone did their time in jail, are they still a felon? Or are they a former felon? I don't (as far as I know) know any, but this seems like a strange situation.

If one's conviction is a federal or state "disabling conviction" WRT firearms
ownership, you bear that scar for life unless your record gets expunged or
you get a pardon. In MA there is no such thing as expungement so it's
doubly worse here.

EDIT: If one is convicted of a Federal Felony (eg, say like for having
an illegal MG) then you're really screwed.... because Clinton cut the funds
to ATF to authorize a system of restoration of firearms rights. (eg, there was an
appeals system of sorts where reformed criminals could petition to the feds to have
their rights restored). After that your only option would be a presidential
pardon... and good luck trying to get that with an anti gun president in
office.


It's also possible for someone to become a convicted felon/prohibited
person without spending a minute in a jail cell- just ask that puke
finneran.

One thing that a lot of people don't get about PP/FIP is that the -actual-
jail sentence for a given crime that is levied is meaningless... FIP/PP goes
by whatever is set in the law. So even if the judge plays "nice" with
the convict and only does probation and no jail time, in the eyes of the
law the convicted person still has a disabling conviction, because they
got convicted of a felony or some crime that (normally) has a minimum
jail sentence of 2 yrs or more.

What is also weird is I think there are some crimes that cannot become
disabling convictions, eg, some forms of "securities fraud".... so there
appears to be a small hole left for white collar felons.


-Mike
 
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[thinking] To clear up some confusion...or make it more soupy...
The form at BGR is printed up ..an as note you must fill it out and sign it..under purgery and the Fed law...because the BGR has a FFL ..that makes them an agent of the Fed Government ..in the same regard as lying on you FA10 form.....The ATF would come in an review some of the forms..looking for certain people. Cases have been tryed..and convictions....
(unfurtunetly one young urban about to be brought up on charges was gunned down in a urban arguement in a HIGHLY violate neighborhood before charges were brought!!)
And you may ask how iI may know all of this...a lil chipmunk told me!![hmmm]
 
[thinking] To clear up some confusion...or make it more soupy...
The form at BGR is printed up ..an as note you must fill it out and sign it..under purgery and the Fed law...because the BGR has a FFL ..that makes them an agent of the Fed Government ..in the same regard as lying on you FA10 form.....

I didn't know MA FA-10 forms were signed under penalty of perjury or anything
like that... if they are then the forms instructions and the like are pretty sparse
about that issue. I know a 4473 is, but those things are coated with
legalese... an FA-10 is not.

-Mike
 
Ooops......ya kind of what i meant

( i am not a lawyer..just play one in the bed room!)

I didn't know MA FA-10 forms were signed under penalty of perjury or anything
like that... if they are then the forms instructions and the like are pretty sparse
about that issue. I know a 4473 is, but those things are coated with
legalese... an FA-10 is not.

-Mike
 
Who said a convicted felon can't use a gun? They just can't get a license or purchase a firearm as far as I knew. And if there is a law about this, HOW would it be enforced?? Background check on anyone shooting with a licensed friend?

From what I understand, a convicted felon isn't even allowed to touch/handle a firearm... period.

And if that might seem a bit extreme or excessive to anyone, read-up on this persons case...

Dane Allen Yirkovsky ("Yirkovsky") appeals from a final judgment entered in the United States District Court1 for the Northern District of Iowa sentencing him to 180 months in prison after he plead guilty pursuant to a written plea agreement to possession of ammunition as a felon in violation of the Armed Career Criminal Act ("ACCA"), 18 U.S.C. §§ 922(g) and 924(e). See United States v. Yirkovsky, No. 1:99CR0064-001 (N.D. Iowa Oct. 12, 2000) (judgment). For reversal, Yirkovsky argues that his sentence was grossly disproportionate to the gravity of the offense, thereby constituting cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the Eighth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Jurisdiction in the district court was proper based upon 18 U.S.C. § 3231. We have jurisdiction pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1291. The notice of appeal was timely filed pursuant to Fed. R. App. P.4(a). For the reasons set forth below, and pursuant to 8th Cir. R. 47B, we affirm the judgment of the district court.

The factual background is based on the facts to which Yirkovsky stipulated in his plea agreement and to which he testified in his hearings in the district court. In late fall or early winter of 1998, Yirkovsky was living with Edith Turkington at her home in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Instead of paying rent, Yirkovsky agreed to remodel a bathroom at the home and to lay new carpeting in the living room and hallway. While in the process of removing the old carpet, Yirkovsky found a Winchester.22 caliber, super x, round. Yirkovsky put the round in a small box and kept it in the room in which he was living in Turkington's house.

Subsequently, Yirkovsky's ex-girlfriend filed a complaint alleging that Yirkovsky had her property in his possession. A police detective spoke to Yirkovsky regarding the ex-girlfriend's property, and Yirkovsky granted him permission to search his room in Turkington's house. During this search the detective located the.22 round. Yirkovsky admitted to police that he had placed the round where it was found by the detective.

Yirkovsky was indicted on September 28, 1999, and plead guilty to one count of being a felon in possession of ammunition after having previously been convicted of three or more violent felonies, 18 U.S.C. § § 922(g), 924(e). Title 18 U.S.C. Appeal from the United States District Court for the Northern District of Iowa

Snip...

[4] In our view Yirkovsky's sentence of fifteen years is an extreme penalty under the facts as presented to this court. However, as we state above, our hands are tied in this matter by the mandatory minimum sentence which Congress established in 18 U.S.C. § 924(e).

http://www.vlex.us/caselaw/U-S-Cour.../USA-v-Dane-A-Yirkovsky/2100-18503731,01.html
 
I didn't know MA FA-10 forms were signed under penalty of perjury or anything
like that... if they are then the forms instructions and the like are pretty sparse
about that issue. I know a 4473 is, but those things are coated with
legalese... an FA-10 is not.

-Mike

If Barrios has his way it soon will be...

Require Gun Secondary Market Sales Documents to Contain
Additional Owner Information and Carry Perjury Penalties and
Gun License Renewal Forms to List Inventory of Weapons
The FA10 form that a person fills out in order to purchase a handgun
currently does not carry the pains and penalties of the Commonwealth’s
perjury laws. These documents also do not compel persons to disclose the
reason for obtaining a firearm. The current licensing renewal forms do not
require for licensees to list which weapons are still under their possession.
These failures allow people individuals to provide misinformation
without penalty. The Committee recommends the creation of further
informational sections on the gun licensing, renewal, and purchasing forms
that include the following information:
- For secondary market sales, the purpose of obtaining a firearm, and a
form that must be signed under the pains and penalties of perjury;
 


One minor point... the MA statute you posted is expungement for an "erroneous felony conviction".

Some states allow ones felony conviction to be expunged even if they were rightfully convicted. The unfunded federal relief from disabilities previously mentioned also would have restored a persons RKBA even if rightfully convicted.
 
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